As for Colour Spray retaining it's usefullness... it's one of (if not the) fastest usefulness-drop-off spells in the game, with it's 'limited by hit dice, even if they don't save' mechanics...
Not sure what you're talking about here, it's not like Sleep that has max hit dice affected. Up to 4HD enemies it's basically death if you fail your save. It's useful up until 4th or 5th level IMO, though at levels 4+ it's limited in it's range a lot since when you get to those levels you really don't want to get up close. But burning hands will be quite weak at level 2, and at level 3 it simply can't match hit points anymore, especially since you don't want to be caught in melee. Color spray might drop enough to make you survive a single standing enemies retaliation, but burning hands won't drop anyone at that point unless they are really weak.
And damage goes out of fashion... When you're 4th level you deal an average of 17.5 damage on a failed save, where CR enemies has standard hit points 30. Even if you hit three enemies, none will drop, while a color spray would probably blind and stun at least one of them. Chance for them to save against your pyros spell is 55%/35% for good/bad saves assuming DC 16 for 1st level spells, chance for a normal gnome sorcerer's color spray is 50%/30%. So if you hit three of them, the color spray will likely take out one or two depending on good/bad saves, while the burning hands won't take out anything. And that's without spending a trait on something that won't be used past this level.
As for Colour Spray retaining it's usefullness... it's one of (if not the) fastest usefulness-drop-off spells in the game, with it's 'limited by hit dice, even if they don't save' mechanics...Not sure what you're talking about here, it's not like Sleep that has max hit dice affected. Up to 4HD enemies it's basically death if you fail your save. It's useful up until 4th or 5th level IMO, though at levels 4+ it's limited in it's range a lot since when you get to those levels you really don't want to get up close. But burning hands will be quite weak at level 2, and at level 3 it simply can't match hit points anymore, especially since you don't want to be caught in melee. Color spray might drop enough to make you survive a single standing enemies retaliation, but burning hands won't drop anyone at that point unless they are really weak.
And damage goes out of fashion... When you're 4th level you deal an average of 17.5 damage on a failed save, where CR enemies has standard hit points 30. Even if you hit three enemies, none will drop, while a color spray would probably blind and stun at least one of them. Chance for them to save against your pyros spell is 55%/35% for good/bad saves assuming DC 16 for 1st level spells, chance for a normal gnome sorcerer's color spray is 50%/30%. So if you hit three of them, the color spray will likely take out one or two depending on good/bad saves, while the burning hands won't take out anything. And that's without spending a trait on something that won't be used past this level.
You need to know about what kind of monsters you're facing. If you know that you'll be facing swarms and swarms of gibberlings then that burning hands will remain useful. The basic challenge of casting is unchanged, you gotta what you're up against.
You need to know about what kind of monsters you're facing. If you know that you'll be facing swarms and swarms of gibberlings then that burning hands will remain useful. The basic challenge of casting is unchanged, you gotta what you're up against.
This is true and not something I disagree with. As I've said, I think it can be useful, it's just that past 1st level (or at least past 2nd level) it's only rarely more useful than a color spray, despite more resources having gone into it (half a feat and choosing an otherwise not that great bloodline).
Yes, you can blast effectively at low levels - under very, very specific circumstances. At higher levels you can reliably blast effectively.
I can't tell you how many times our party has, at low levels, encountered a swarm and not had a simple burning hands spell to save our collective asses from it. They are now the most terrifying low-level threat we could ever face, so much so, that we don't make parties anymore that don't at least have a scroll of burning hands.
Low level blasts are NOT useless.
I can't tell you how many times our party has, at low levels, encountered a swarm and not had a simple burning hands spell to save our collective asses from it. They are now the most terrifying low-level threat we could ever face, so much so, that we don't make parties anymore that don't at least have a scroll of burning hands.
Low level blasts are NOT useless.
Yes, swarms are one circumstance where they are very useful (though I prefer alchemist fire to low-level scrolls of burning hands). My point isn't that low-level blasts are useless, but rather that before level 5 or so, it's hard to effectively play a caster that has blasting as his main schtick. It's not impossible, but requires heavy investment and a party that matches it as well as the right kind of encounters.
The occacional blast is always useful, but a dedicated blaster is going to have a hard time before he gets ranged AOE spells.
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Unless you're KOing with a Colour Spray you're not really 'dropping' anything - at best you're delaying them, and (ideally) making them easier to deal with in the ol' mundane pointy-stick fashion... Colour Spray can't 'drop' anything over 2 Hit Dice.
Damage... well, baring regeneration or fast healing (or friendly clerics and the like), damage doesn't just vanish after the spell goes off - that's kinda' the point with blasting: if you blast a room of bad guys down a 'mere' 17 Hit Points, from 30, then you've already done more than half the work needed to 'drop' them all. No, you haven't stopped them dead... but then again, if that's what you're after with blasting then you're probably out of luck (barring the odd lucky roll, or really low level bad guys). Blasting chips away at Hit Points, and at the end of the day, that's the old stand-by for 'dropping' things. Besides, with Burning Hands there's a good chance they're at least a little bit on fire now... lost more than half Hit Points and now burning as well... one or two bad guys may try running at that point... ;)
I'm not hating the Colour Spray though: as many have said already, the best caster is the smart caster, who tries to do what works best for them and for the situation. But since this is a 'blasters suck / blasters don't suck' thread, I'd have to say there's no justification to say that blasting magic universally sucks... (not that Stringburka's actually saying that, mind you...).
... and now I actually want to play pyro the gnome... damnit! ;p
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The problem is that most of the good blasting spells affect Multiple targets, while almost everything combat related is measured against individual targets.
If you have a "bombing area" full of targets (such as a nice long hallway full of medium creatures, and you throw out a lightning bolt, you can be VERY effective, against a single guy, yeah, not so special.
Blasting does seem to fall off at the higher spell levels, although it could be argued that the spells that deal 10/level damage are the new blasting.
Note: I also find that many, many people max out HP for players and monsters. If you inflate HP, healing and blasting become proportionally less effective.
This. There tend to be a lot of people who fight a single equal CR creature and believe this shows something awesome about how they designed the character.
But what they found is a lazy DM.
Volume is the great equalizer that allows evocations specialists to shine. SoS is an effective way to build a caster, but SoS casters are VERY dependent on the rest of the group. They tend to be all win or all fail. They can epically drop the single baddie while being equally pathetically dropped by a wave of kobalds.
As with most things, it is a matter of taste.
Besides, with Burning Hands there's a good chance they're at least a little bit on fire now... lost more than half Hit Points and now burning as well... one or two bad guys may try running at that point... ;)
Intensified burning hands can be surprisingly nasty for a simple 2nd-level spell. Same with shocking grasp. A great way to make those low level slots useful into much higher character levels.
I just don't see ANY use for heighten. If the spell is save or die, there's guaranteed to be a better save or die spell at X levels higher.
Flesh to Stone is my favorite use for it.
Baleful Polymorph is also a favorite.EDITED
Volume is the great equalizer that allows evocations specialists to shine. SoS is an effective way to build a caster, but SoS casters are VERY dependent on the rest of the group. They tend to be all win or all fail. They can epically drop the single baddie while being equally pathetically dropped by a wave of kobalds.
Well, no. Stinking Cloud is great for your wave of kobolds; further, it's all but guaranteed to be neither all win or all fail, but more likely to incapacitate most but not quite all of the kobolds.
If you're all-in with single target SoS, sure. But I think that's kind of a straw man of a build.
The thing that I hate about SoS target spells is that I suspect many GMs secretly hate them and will fudge rolls in favor of their BBEG "to make things more exciting and longer lasting."
That makes SoS useless. GMs rarely have to resort to such things when you're just blasting.
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Volume is the great equalizer that allows evocations specialists to shine. SoS is an effective way to build a caster, but SoS casters are VERY dependent on the rest of the group. They tend to be all win or all fail. They can epically drop the single baddie while being equally pathetically dropped by a wave of kobalds.
Well, no. Stinking Cloud is great for your wave of kobolds; further, it's all but guaranteed to be neither all win or all fail, but more likely to incapacitate most but not quite all of the kobolds.
If you're all-in with single target SoS, sure. But I think that's kind of a straw man of a build.
Except stinking cloud also applies to allies and gives complete cover. So you've effectively hidden the enemy in a cloud where no once can see them to shoot them, or go in to hit them, and that they can retreat out the back to regroup if they are effected in a few rounds since it is a 1d4 + 1 duration. Anyone wanting to get to them when they retreat needs to go around the cloud.
It is a battle extender, not a battle-ender. They nerfed all the SoS spells.
We've been through this on so many threads...this spell specifically even.
Doesn't Blaster vs. Controller just boil down to what kind of a guy is GMing? If the GM loves single creatures without SR or amazing willpower, save or suck spells rule. If the GM loves hordes of weaklings, blasters rule.
True, a fireball thrown at one super bad guy only does 20 damage, but a fireball thrown at a dozen little guys deals 240 damage over the group. If the hasted, power attacking, THF, smiting paladin can kill the one big bad in a couple rounds with or without a save or suck spell, having a wizard around to clear the chaff sounds like a good time to me.
Yep. I've never argued for one's superiority over the other, just that blasters don't suck like people seem to think they do.
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Accept he through a quickened Hungry Pit behind the kobolds before casting the stinking cloud..
Maybe the stinking cloud is selective so what 5 party members or more are not affected and can wade in to attack freely...
You think a Save of Suck caster isn't going to think of that if his party can't wade in and kill the move-action-only-kobolds for some reason?
Or maybe he casts wall of fire behind them a hungry pit in front, and lets the fighter, ranger, and other player pick them off from behind a nice hungry pit?
So he is casting a quickened 5th level spell huh? With the +4 level adjustment or the 75,500 dollar rod?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/quicken-spell-metamagic---fin al
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/hungry-pit
If it is the spell, I would think other 9th level spells would be more useful. If the rod, what level are you that you can afford a 75,500 dollar item?
Except stinking cloud also applies to allies and gives complete cover. So you've effectively hidden the enemy in a cloud where no once can see them to shoot them, or go in to hit them, and that they can retreat out the back to regroup if they are effected in a few rounds since it is a 1d4 + 1 duration. Anyone wanting to get to them when they retreat needs to go around the cloud.
It is a battle extender, not a battle-ender. They nerfed all the SoS spells.
We've been through this on so many threads...this spell specifically even.
It's more complicated than that, but you're right, this has been beaten to death. You're convinced or you're not.
Unless you're KOing with a Colour Spray you're not really 'dropping' anything - at best you're delaying them, and (ideally) making them easier to deal with in the ol' mundane pointy-stick fashion... Colour Spray can't 'drop' anything over 2 Hit Dice.
For 3.5 turns on average, the victim:
- Drops everything held- Loses dex to AC
- Can't take actions
- Suffer an additional -2 AC
- Effectively takes a -4 penalty to CMD in addition to the AC and dex penalty (or rather, opponents get +4 CMB against him)
- For the first average 2.5 turns, he also can't see squat and take an additional -2 to AC.
A dex 15 character that loses his save effectively loses 10 points of CMD and can't take actions for more than half the battle. Blow hard enough on him and he'll drop to the floor.
That isn't delaying them. That's winning the fight. Most fights have ended in 3.5 turns, or at least been decided - especially if half of the combatants are incapacitated on the first turn. Even IF it survives until that, it's unarmed if normally using weapons and probably knocked to the floor.
I agree at 5 HD + it's delaying them, though it's still a big effect (I'd rather stun the opponent for one round than take away 80% of his hit points in most cases).
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Unless you're KOing with a Colour Spray you're not really 'dropping' anything - at best you're delaying them, and (ideally) making them easier to deal with in the ol' mundane pointy-stick fashion... Colour Spray can't 'drop' anything over 2 Hit Dice.For 3.5 turns on average, the victim:
- Drops everything held
- Loses dex to AC
- Can't take actions
- Suffer an additional -2 AC
- Effectively takes a -4 penalty to CMD in addition to the AC and dex penalty (or rather, opponents get +4 CMB against him)
- For the first average 2.5 turns, he also can't see squat and take an additional -2 to AC.A dex 15 character that loses his save effectively loses 10 points of CMD and can't take actions for more than half the battle. Blow hard enough on him and he'll drop to the floor.
That isn't delaying them. That's winning the fight. Most fights have ended in 3.5 turns, or at least been decided - especially if half of the combatants are incapacitated on the first turn. Even IF it survives until that, it's unarmed if normally using weapons and probably knocked to the floor.
I agree at 5 HD + it's delaying them, though it's still a big effect (I'd rather stun the opponent for one round than take away 80% of his hit points in most cases).
But it also brings you within 10 feet of the enemy using a cone that clears a path in front of you, so if it fails...
At the level color spray works, wizards are just as vulnerable to being dropped by attacks because they just exposed their unarmored self.
But it also brings you within 10 feet of the enemy using a cone that clears a path in front of you, so if it fails...
At the level color spray works, wizards are just as vulnerable to being dropped by attacks because they just exposed their unarmored self.
Yes, agreed. The discussion is on burning hands vs. color spray and which is useful the longest, not about any of them being overpowered. I think color spray is fine, burning hands is a little weak unless you focus on it and even then it wears out quicker than color spray.
Color spray and burning hands have the same limitations in terms of range and area, but when you're 4th level, color spray is a useful spell while burning hands isn't (even if you've focused in it).
When you've got the 2nd level slots to waste, an intensified burning hands can still be useful, but as a 1st level spell it loses usefulness really fast.
EDIT: Though it should be noted in BH favor that it works on more stuff than the mind-affecting illusion that is color spray.
EDIT2:
I'd say that, in levels, if we assume that the spell is used against CR = level -1, and it's the difference between a focused burning hands pyromaniac gnome sorcerer including the trait and a non-focused standard gnome sorcerer, this is how I'd choose if I didn't know what I was going to be up against and only had a single slot to put one in:
1st level vs CR 1/2: Burning Hands
2nd level vs CR 1: Tie
3rd level vs CR 2: Color Spray
4th level vs CR 3: Color Spray
5th level vs CR 4: Neither of them; both are pretty much wastes now and I'd rather pick something like Grease
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But it also brings you within 10 feet of the enemy using a cone that clears a path in front of you, so if it fails...
At the level color spray works, wizards are just as vulnerable to being dropped by attacks because they just exposed their unarmored self.
Yes, agreed. The discussion is on burning hands vs. color spray and which is useful the longest, not about any of them being overpowered. I think color spray is fine, burning hands is a little weak unless you focus on it and even then it wears out quicker than color spray.
Color spray and burning hands have the same limitations in terms of range and area, but when you're 4th level, color spray is a useful spell while burning hands isn't (even if you've focused in it).
When you've got the 2nd level slots to waste, an intensified burning hands can still be useful, but as a 1st level spell it loses usefulness really fast.
EDIT: Though it should be noted in BH favor that it works on more stuff than the mind-affecting illusion that is color spray.
EDIT2:
I'd say that, in levels, if we assume that the spell is used against CR = level -1, and it's the difference between a focused burning hands pyromaniac gnome sorcerer including the trait and a non-focused standard gnome sorcerer, this is how I'd choose if I didn't know what I was going to be up against and only had a single slot to put one in:
1st level vs CR 1/2: Burning Hands
2nd level vs CR 1: Tie
3rd level vs CR 2: Color Spray
4th level vs CR 3: Color Spray
5th level vs CR 4: Neither of them; both are pretty much wastes now and I'd rather pick something like Grease
I'd say that is fair, with the note that Color spray loses it's biggest benefit when you are fighting creatures with more than 2 HD, which is generally around CR 2.
And at high levels, I agree grease is better than both, but still not that useful since the save is always going to be low and there are so few things that carry weapons.
I'd say that is fair, with the note that Color spray loses it's biggest benefit when you are fighting creatures with more than 2 HD, which is generally around CR 2.And at high levels, I agree grease is better than both, but still not that useful since the save is always going to be low and there are so few things that carry weapons.
Stunned and blinded are both very serious conditions, and they somewhat stack. Lose dex to AC, -4 to AC, no actions, and drop anything held - having all those for 2-3 rounds spells death. It's as much win as knocking them out, more or less, since CdG's are hard to pull of in combat anyway. So I'd say up to 4 HD it's nearly a save or lose, after that it's more of a save or suck.
How often you encounter stuff that carries weapons is completely dependent on playstyle. And grease isn't that dependent on opponents failing saves; it's mostly useful for controlling movement and/or allowing sneak attacks. The issue with grease is primarily it's small radius, IMO, that makes it weak in open areas (though still very powerful in a corridor, especially if you've got good ranged support in the group - like a blaster).
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As for Colour Spray retaining it's usefullness... it's one of (if not the) fastest usefulness-drop-off spells in the game, with it's 'limited by hit dice, even if they don't save' mechanics...
Glad to hear that low-level blasting's not useless! ;)
As for a 'lot' of investment...I'm not sure - it's more like a little investment and choosing a theme for the character, but I guess opinions can vary on that. It's not like the...
If I ever play a module in a city that has even the slightest chance of a mob scene. Color Spray becomes one of the spells that's in the arsenal. If you want to put down a crowd of commoners without killing them... no other spell works as well for getting the crowd's attention... hopefully long enough to dissuade them from further foolishness.
I'm seriously thinking of crafting a wand of that spell, but it's not nearly as effective as casting it directly.
Define mob.
Remember it's a 15 foot cone. You can't get anyone in 5 feet of you without provoking unless you cast on the defensive (good luck with that at low levels with the new rules) and you have to move ahead of your allies so you don't hit them. And if they make the save...hello angry mob now within melee range.
I mean, you are right, it's probably the best of the first levels. But I don't know how much crowd dispersion I would do with it considering how vulnerable you have to make yourself.
"Don't colorspray me bro!"
HA HA HA!
There is a pre-fireball evocation damage spell that is now worth casting - Flaming Sphere.
- Now that it is 3d6, it deals decent damage.
- Provides battlefield control in tighter areas.
- Medium range.
- As a "non-instantaneous" fire effect, victims are at risk of catching on fire for an additional 1d6 damage (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html#catching-on-fire)
The other really obvious thing that may people forget about blasting is that you don't always do it. You still memorize/know a few other spells, like color spray, grease, charm, etc. etc. Same with a dedicated SoS specialist, you still have a fireball or two just in case.
I think part of the reason this is often such a debated topic is that many folks play in games where things are either hidden from the players, (such as the GM fudging roles, or tweaking monsters stats) or rules changes are a default part of the GM's campaign world for so long that people forget it is even a house rule (handling charm and illusions differently, or giving everything extra HP.)
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Most 'blasting' spells are Evocations. Most 'blasting' spells are elemental. Doesn't that mean that most 'blasting' spells can, eventually, have +2 DC over most non-blasting spells, 'cos the blasting caster can stack Spell Focus & Greater Spell Focus with Elemental Focus & Greater Elemental Focus?
If true, then doesn't that mean blasting spells are both harder to save against, and tend to actually do something even on a successful save?
In the eternal battle which is Colour Spray Vs Burning Hands (we know that guys just take both of 'em anyway, right? ;) ) we see:
Colour Spray:
Target saves = no effect
Target fails = win! at 2 HD or less, great effect! at 3 or 4 HD, delaying tactic at best at 5+ HD.
Burning Hands:
Target saves = some damage
Target fails = more damage
Also, the ability to get a benefit from 'investing' in a spell isn't a drawback, it's a plus. By their nature, spells with effects which scale with caster level benefit more from things which boost caster level than spells which just get additional range or duration (or nothing...).
The same goes for Metamagic Feats. Damage dealing spells can be effected by more of them, which is a plus.
A Colour Spray cast by a level 1 apprentice does exactly the same things as a Colour Spray cast by a level 20 (or more) archmage (although, granted, the archmage has probably bumped the save DC a few points...).
An Intensified, Empowered, Maximised Burning Hands spell cast by a level 13 Wizard does 5d4+40 damage, Vs the 1d4 done by his level 1 apprentice.
So... how can the Colour Spray have a longer 'useful life'? Or, to look at it another way: even if you simply cast the unaugmented Burning Hands as a first level spell for a regular maximum of 5d4 damage... when, exactly, in an adventurer's career does damage become not-useful?
The other really obvious thing that may people forget about blasting is that you don't always do it. You still memorize/know a few other spells, like color spray, grease, charm, etc. etc. Same with a dedicated SoS specialist, you still have a fireball or two just in case.
True, very true... which is why most of us are more in the 'blasting doesn't suck' camp than we are in the 'blasting is always the best' camp... 'cos it's not always the best, obviously... ;)
Quick note (too tired to argue more right now on BH vs CS): Reach doesn't work with CS or BH.
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... But to say a blaster is better in more circumstances to me is wrong...
Right... but I don't think anyone is saying that - mostly just that 'blasters don't suck'.
... All of those things generally help make a blaster more effective, but still it does hurt with the action economy in that someone who is 100% of there health, and 50% of there health, and 25% of there health is all just as effective in combat, while someone who loses 25% of there actions, or 25% of there AC/Saves/Attack/Defense bonuses is not as effective...
No, you're right - applying conditions, penalties, and the like is all good squishy... but applying raw damage is as well. Just because you don't do 100% the damage needed to take a bad guy out of the fight, doesn't mean you've done nothing... the 'condition' (if you will) inflicted by damage is 'this guy is closer to death'.
Put another way, inflicting the Stunned condition for one round (sticking to the example at hand) means you get one extra round where he can't attack you, but you can hit him a little easier, and the possibility of an extra AoO if he's using a weapon and tries to pick it up when the stun wears off. That's nice... it can be very nice... but it depends a lot on the situation.
If you Colour Spray (for example) 4 bad guys (with 5+ HD), who all fail their saves, then you've gotten yourself a single round of breathing room. If you have four combat guys ready to charge in and follow up, then great. If you have a Fighter type who's going in with the Cleave chain, then great again - if they're built reasonably for the level you're at, you can hope that they'll inflict as much or more damage as you would have just Burning Handsing them. If you don't have those guys, then you've just pulled off a delaying tactic. The kicker, of course, is that some or all of those bad guys might save, and then it's back to having a fight on your hands. In comparison, Burning Hands is a reliable stand-by - if they fail their save they're closer to death, i.e. easier for your Fighter types to drop. If they make their saves then... they're still closer to death, and easier for your Fighter guys to drop... just a little less so than if they'd failed those saves. (Plus they're on fire, but I digress... ;) ). It's trading the chance of doing something useful to the party for the certainty of doing something useful for the party. The up side of the SoS spell, of course, is that the something useful in question could well be a fight-ender.
(In all cases, of course, Immunities to certain attack types, special Class Abilities, etc. can make one or the other spell pointless... but that's sort of universal across the the board - nothing in the game is meant to be infalible, after all).
I guess in the end the point is (as has been mentioned lots already on this thread) that flexible spellcasting is the best choice. Always blasting is never going to be the best choice... but neither is never blasting on principle (because the messageboard told you so! ;) ).
Your right, because CS is 15ft range, and Reach has the dumb add-on it doesn't work with something unless it's touch, close, med, or long...
What you're looking for is 'Widen Spell' - makes that 15ft cone a 30ft cone... but it's a hefty +3 spell levels to bump... where's that Metamagic Rod I had lying about... ;)
The thing that I hate about SoS target spells is that I suspect many GMs secretly hate them and will fudge rolls in favor of their BBEG "to make things more exciting and longer lasting."
That makes SoS useless. GMs rarely have to resort to such things when you're just blasting.
I would rather for a DM to just tell me at the beginning he does not like such spells, than to have me waste slots on them.
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As for Colour Spray retaining it's usefullness... it's one of (if not the) fastest usefulness-drop-off spells in the game, with it's 'limited by hit dice, even if they don't save' mechanics... and usually gets swapped out as soon as possible (it's done it's job, time to put it away). Burning Hands does damage... damage is damage is damage... it never goes out of fashion! Granted, you'll not pull it out against the fire-immune crowd, but then you'll not pull out the Colour Spray against Zatoichi either, right? ;)
You do know that color spray causes stun for one round no matter what level right? And stun makes you drop what is in hand. Is it a bread a butter spell at higher levels? Well no...but no level 1 spell really is. I would take stunned for one round vs some piddly damage that doesn't even equate to half of one attack that the fighter does.
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You do know that color spray causes stun for one round no matter what level right? And stun makes you drop what is in hand. Is it a bread a butter spell at higher levels? Well no...but no level 1 spell really is. I would take stunned for one round vs some piddly damage that doesn't even equate to half of one attack that the fighter does.
As for Colour Spray retaining it's usefullness... it's one of (if not the) fastest usefulness-drop-off spells in the game, with it's 'limited by hit dice, even if they don't save' mechanics... and usually gets swapped out as soon as possible (it's done it's job, time to put it away). Burning Hands does damage... damage is damage is damage... it never goes out of fashion! Granted, you'll not pull it out against the fire-immune crowd, but then you'll not pull out the Colour Spray against Zatoichi either, right? ;)
If they don't save. Which at higher levels they likely will against 1st level spells.
Meanwhile, you are standing 10 feet away from what you were trying to stun with nothing between you and it.
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The thing that I hate about SoS target spells is that I suspect many GMs secretly hate them and will fudge rolls in favor of their BBEG "to make things more exciting and longer lasting."
That makes SoS useless. GMs rarely have to resort to such things when you're just blasting.
Bad DMing is not a reason to make blasting superior. And I do not agree with your point that most DM will fudge rolls all the time. Hell many groups roll in plain view.
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You do know that color spray causes stun for one round no matter what level right? And stun makes you drop what is in hand. Is it a bread a butter spell at higher levels? Well no...but no level 1 spell really is. I would take stunned for one round vs some piddly damage that doesn't even equate to half of one attack that the fighter does.
As for Colour Spray retaining it's usefullness... it's one of (if not the) fastest usefulness-drop-off spells in the game, with it's 'limited by hit dice, even if they don't save' mechanics... and usually gets swapped out as soon as possible (it's done it's job, time to put it away). Burning Hands does damage... damage is damage is damage... it never goes out of fashion! Granted, you'll not pull it out against the fire-immune crowd, but then you'll not pull out the Colour Spray against Zatoichi either, right? ;)
If they don't save. Which at higher levels they likely will against 1st level spells.
Meanwhile, you are standing 10 feet away from what you were trying to stun with nothing between you and it.
Actually it's more like they come up, you cast and move. If they get stunned, they are delayed one round + they have to spend actions to pick up what they dropped. If not, your still equally screwed since your tossing level 1 spells at something that is ready and willing to kill you at high levels :P .
If not, your still equally screwed since your tossing level 1 spells at something that is ready and willing to kill you at high levels :P .
Hmmm, after those first level spells are gone, I guess the next itteratation is deciding between cantrips or using that dagger.
Greg
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If not, your still equally screwed since your tossing level 1 spells at something that is ready and willing to kill you at high levels :P .Hmmm, after those first level spells are gone, I guess the next itteratation is deciding between cantrips or using that dagger.
Greg
Which cantrip tho? Blasting with ray of frost or SoS like dazzle? I think at the cantrip level, blasting away maybe a better option then -1 to hit...
Which cantrip tho? Blasting with ray of frost or SoS like dazzle? I think at the cantrip level, blasting away maybe a better option then -1 to hit...If not, your still equally screwed since your tossing level 1 spells at something that is ready and willing to kill you at high levels :P .Hmmm, after those first level spells are gone, I guess the next itteratation is deciding between cantrips or using that dagger.
Greg
Maybe at that point the mage gives the bad guy the somantic gesture representing the "last act of defiance" and just lets himself be eaten. :P
Greg
This has pretty much always been the case. Not just in 3E, but in older editions as well; it's just that with higher HP inflation, it becomes a much more prominent problem. Those who want to deal the most damage possible don't use damaging spells very much, because the best way to deal damage in D&D is with a warrior-type.
Follow me for a moment here.
At 1st level, with a 16 Strength +2 Racial (human, half orc, half elf, etc), you can easily be swinging for 1d10+6 points of damage, possibly hitting 2 opponents each round with cleave; for an average of 11.5 damage per swing. Magic Missile deals an average of 3.5 damage, and is the best damage spell at 1st level when you consider the chances to miss with other spells and the tactical problems they create (stuff like shocking grasp and burning hands put you in harms way quickly).
By casting expeditious retreat on your warrior, he can move 60 feet per round and hit your opponent for this damage. He gets a +12 onus to jump over difficult terrain. He can charge up to 120 feet; for at least 10 rounds. Meanwhile, you can be throwing acid splash at your enemies or using Total Defense action (standard action, +4 dodge to AC) to stay alive; while your warrior enjoys +30 ft speed for 10 rounds minimum.
By casting enlarge person on him, you can increase your warrior's reach to 20 ft, his damage to 2d8+7 or 16 damage, and you've given your warrior an incredible battle presence for the next 10 rounds minimum.
At 3rd level, our wizard can get scorching ray which deals an average of 14 fire damage, but it requires a ranged touch attack; which would normally be great, but if there's a creature between you and the target they get +4 AC. If there's a creature in melee with the target, you get -4 to hit, so if the warrior is engaging the foe or you're in the back ranks, or especially if both, your damage dwindles quickly; and if they have energy resistances the damage comes to a crawl; and this is with you using 1 of your maybe 4 (1 base + 1 school + 2 bonus with an Int of 20) per day.
Meanwhile, casting heroism on the warrior type would increase his hit, saves, and skill checks by +2. An enlarged fighter is still more damaging, and that's a 1st level spell, only now it lasts 30 rounds instead of 10. Alternatively, casting glitterdust can prevent your target from hiding, and may even blind the target; allowing the warrior to demolish the target.
At 5th level, our wizard gets access to fireball, the iconic damage dealing spell. It deals a massive 5d6 damage, with a reflex save for half. The problem is this really isn't all that massive. It's an average of 17.5 damage. By this time, a warrior will likely be dealing something akin to 1d10+12 points of damage before buffs, or 17.5 damage per swing thanks to Power Attack. More if you bothered to cast a 1st or 2nd level spell on him (which now lasts 50 rounds by the way; or 50 minutes if it was heroism).
Fireball gives a reflex for half, and also is subject to resistances. A 5-10 point fire resistance will crush your fireball whereas a 5-10 point damage reduction will still get pierced pretty solidly by the Fighter. Likewise, fireball only becomes particularly attractive in the case that you are outdoors, flying, and enemies are grouped together; and you can easily risk harming your allies.
If you had instead cast haste, your warrior gets a +30 to speed, +1 to hit, +1 to AC, +1 to reflex saves, and can chew on enemies with an extra attack per round, potentially doubling his damage output; while also making him more effective against grouped enemies.
So let's say you have a party consisting of you (wizard or sorcerer), a ranger (the melee/ranged) and his pet, a druid or cleric (healer) and their pets (both can have animal companions), and a rogue or bard (the skill)? Well then you can haste the whole party. That's your ranger, your ranger's pet, the druid, your druid's pet, and either your cleric, rogue, or bard; whoever would do the best. And these benefits will last for the next 5 rounds; whereas fireball doesn't.
The biggest difference is, whether outdoors, indoors, against lots of enemies or against one, this is most likely at least a good option; whereas fireball is less reliable for less benefit.
It continues from here as well. Let's say at high levels we're fighting a Balor, which is a fairly iconic big-bad. He's CR 20, so he might be a nice boss at level 17.
I could cast meteor swarm on the balor, making an attack roll to hit for some bludgeoning damage (but his DR kills it), and I have to make a spell resistance check to do it (but I took spell penetration and got a floating rock, so I pass), and then I deal an average of 84 damage, or 42 damage on a successful save, and then we find he's completely immune to fire. Ok, so maybe I try a maximized and empowered cone of cold instead. That's about (15d6*.5)+(15*6)= 116.5 damage, or 58.25 on a save, then -10 for Cold resistance 10.
Now he has a +17 Reflex save, so if my Int is +11, and I just popped a 4th level + metamagic spell, and I have spell focus + greater spell focus, the save DC is 27. He makes this on a roll of 9+, and suffers a very small amount of damage for what was the equivalent to a 9th level spell slot. Kinda boring too. No teamwork.
So instead, our SoD caster has his buddy the fighter (hasted of course, either via a magic item or through a quickened haste) run up and whack the demon a couple of times with a life drinker, inflicting a -2 penalty to the demon's saves for every hit the Fighter lands, or -6 if the Fighter gets a critical hit ('cause negative levels are multiplied on criticals). If I just wanna be nice, I can even pop a quickened telekinesis to place the Fighter into melee with the Balor on my turn. The so let's say the Fighter hits 4/5 times (1st, haste, 2nd, 3rd, miss 4th) and confirms no critical hits. That's a -8 to all saving throws, attack rolls, skill checks, caster level, and -40 Hp on top of whatever the Fighter actually dealt with his axe.
So, then I hit the balor with dimensional anchor, preventing it from teleporting away, or teleporting to me. At this point, I've given the Fighter the opportunity to whack the Balor several times, helped to apply -8 to everything the Balor wants to do (including -8 to his CMB/CMD and Concentration checks), and prevented the Balor from escaping.
Or I could have dropped a maximized enervation on the Balor, inflicting another 4 negative levels, giving him a total of -12 to hit, saves, skills, caster level, CMB, CMD, and -60 Hp.
This = Teamwork. This = Effective.
And as a GM, I prefer it when my players play like this, 'cause it's way more entertaining to see them working together as a team, rather than trying to measure the size of their damage-roosters.
EDIT: And just to point something out. If you count the full attack that the Fighter gets to make because of the wizard as damage the wizard caused, the Fighter can easily support 1d12+15+15+5+4+4 damage per hit at 17th level, assuming weapon training, specialization, a 30 strength, a +5 weapon and power attack; which is an average of 49.5 damage per hit, and even if he suffers a -15 per hit from damage reduction, that still puts it at 138 damage for 4 hits; or 103.5 damage more than the Fighter would have dealt just moving into melee and swinging.
Which means the wizard assisted the team and STILL dealt comparable damage to the guy who dropped an maximized-empowered cone of cold.
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So yes force multipliers can easily 'win the day', assuming all forces are available and capable.
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Things to consider when factoring in blast spells:
For example, a Giant is standing in pool of water, you Cone of Cold pool of water, Giant is now stuck for a round or more. Of course this is dependent on your GM/Campaign, much like the various interpretations of charm spells/illusions.
For added kicks, take the alternate human racial 'Heart of the Streets' and enjoy the ability to discount crowds as difficult terrain. KABOOM - CHAOS - ..and quickly slip away.
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There is much much more to blasting than simply removing X HPs from one or more targets. The trick, the fun, is finding creative ways to use the tools you have at your disposal. SoS spells are awesome but tend to have very exacting effects, which can strain their flexibility.
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Of course, if it's the right tool for the job then use it!
For everything else, there is..
Repost for The Fergster:
It's what Sorcerer's talk about in the pub.
''So yeah, and she says that I better stop eating pies in bed or else she's going back to her mother's and so I go FIREBALL IN THE FACE!''
''Yeah, well, one time we're like totally liberating this goblin village and there are these two snotty nosed orphan goblins in this hut and..''
''..FIREBALL IN THE FACE?''
''Damn straight. Every time.''
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It get's bad press but then people tend to use it badly. Nothing says 'Difficult Terrain' like a terrified crowd fleeing from the charred remains of their kin and kind..
..strange knock at the door? FIREBALL
..not sure what's down the dark stairway? FIREBALL
..campfire needs lighting? FIREBALL
..that neighbour's cat on the lawn again? FIREBALL
..last orders at the local tavern? FIREBALL
..bored? FIREBALL
..when you absolutely have to kill every last goblin muvva in the room?
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Quasi-seriously: It's relatively cheap, it's got a great range, it doesn't require a roll to hit, has a nice target area and it works well with metamagic feats like lingering spell and elemental spell, which are in turn cheap (+1 spell level) Metamagic feats.
Yes a rogue can totally evade it. Yes some creatures are immune to fire: Stop fireballing rogues and creatures immune to fire. Problem solved.
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The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
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FUN. CHEAP. FIRE. What's not to like?
Right, TEA!
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Good argument. You've convinced me. :P
Humorously, damage dealing spells are worse at destroying objects than creatures. Most of them deal 1/2 or even 1/4th damage to objects before applying hardness, meaning that if you drop a maximized fireball on a stone door (hardness 8), it deals 22 points of damage to the stone door. If stone door was shot with a single full-attack by an appropriately leveled archer, it would take 1d8+5+5+10 damage per arrow, with pretty much every sot hitting, so we'd be dealing about 5 * 12 damage = 60 damage to the stone door assuming only a +5 weapon, +5 strength, and +10 from Deadly Aim; using normal arrows.
Now if the wizard had tried a maximized cone of cold, it would have been a mighty 14 damage! Impressive! :D
Meteor-swarm? Let's see. Likely no damage to the door from the impact, and comparable damage to the maximized fireball, or about 34 damage; assuming that you are generous with the reading of fire resistance. As written, hardness applies to each sphere, meaning you'll actually deal LESS damage than with the maximized fireball.
Great range and wide effects are overrated. As I noted before, spells like fireball with that tasty Long (400 ft + 40 ft/level) range are often wasted if you're in any of the following situations: In a cave, in a dungeon, inside a structure, not out in an open field, anywhere where you can't fly very high, etc. Likewise, the wide range makes it more difficult to use without nailing your party members; especially in tight spaces; though the addition of the metamagic to help you ignore some of your party members is helpful, it also raises the slot required to cast it, reducing your effectiveness; and that feat is also just as good for stuff like glitterdust, black tentacles, and so forth.
Also, fun fact...Telekinesis is long range, can be used for damage, and can also be used to not only turn your fighter into a FIGHTERDOKEN, but it places him in a space adjacent to the enemy without knocking him prone; so you just literally slapped your foe with your party's Fighter and gave the Fighter a 1-way ride to the top of Full-Attack Mountain. Aren't you so nice? :D (Hmm, at 400ft + 40ft / level, that gives a 20th level wizard the ability to plant the Fighter on some nasty's face from about 1200 feet away, without dipping into his 9th level spells. Mmmmm, tasty.
Also, I find it amazingly shrewd, quite clever even, that we assign cool "logical" functions like freezing things with cone of cold, even though there's no basis for it in the game. Unfortunately, that's even more situational as it requires your GM to be amazingly nice and liberal in the interpretations thereof. Ice isn't even that strong. So you're standing in a pool of water and it's flash frozen. You think a giant can't break out? Breaking out of iron is only DC 26.
However, what happens if you don't have a pool of water handy? Or what happens if your GM is following the rules? Hmmm, nothing. Good point though. This actually is a good point with fireball however, because it actually calls out that it can set things on fire; which may be pretty useful (1d6 fire damage/round is kind of like bleed for objects, but pretty useless against things like stone or anything with a hardness of 6 or higher) in the right circumstances.
Also, the cave example is great! I mean, who would have ever considered not throwing a fireball into the back of the cave to discover what is there, rather than a stone with light cast on it tossed by a sling? Oh snap, too bad the chick you were sent to rescue was in the radius of that fireball. Looks like you're not going to get the sweet respect for bringing her home alive.
Truly, we bow to the might that is fireball!
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Maybe at that point the mage gives the bad guy the somantic gesture representing the "last act of defiance" and just lets himself be eaten. :P
LOL! Ah... the favourite somantic gesture - and understandable even without ranks in Linguistics! :)
Ashiel: your examples seem to be falling into the common trap of evaluating blasting spells as single-target spells. 17.5 average damage (on a failed save no less!) for a Fireball cast by a level 5 Wizard is, of course, naff. But that's assuming that the spell is used in the least effective manner one could possibly use it in - attacking a single target... if you're playing a dedicated blaster mage, then why are you doing this? You should know better... shame on you blaster mage... ;p
We can just as easily take the opposite track, and look at the spell used in the most effective situation. That same Fireball can hit 44 targets at once (assuming we don't go completely cheesy and start to squish more than one target into each grid space). That 17.5 DPR is now 770 DPR... which is a little more impressive.
In all honesty, an 'average' but sensible casting of Fireball is going to be somewhere in the middle of the two - where, exactly, will depend a lot on the type of campaign you're playing. If you're playing a war campaign (where you face armies... or, at least, parts of armies), or facing hordes of (well, anything which tends towards the 'horde forming instict' I guess... undead... goblinoids... barbarians... etc...), or even skirmish-sized groups of opponents (bandits, for example), then your area blasting spells come into their own.
I mean... casting a Meteor Swarm at a single balor... who does that? Meteor Swarm hits what, four or five hundred squares at a time? Something like that (4x 40ft radius spreads)... against an army the DPR breaks the needle. Againts a balor, you obviously have better things you can be doing with your time.
Back with pyro the gnome (who I really, really, want to use in a game now... ;) ), his Burning Hands does 3d4+3 damage at level 1. That's 10.5 average (on a failed save). Assuming he stands 5ft away from the bad guys (so as not to provoke) he can (under optimal conditions) hit 6 of them in one shot. That's 63 DPR... from a single spell... at first level... How is that not good? Sure, he's designed as a blasting specialist... but isn't that what this thread is all about? You could equally design a SoS mage with a caster Ability Score of 12 and no relevant Save DC boosting Feats if you wanted to... but it wouldn't be representative of the potential of SoS spells, would it?
Talking about "optimal circumstances" is completely worthless, since a 1st level commoner with NPC wealth can do a few hundred points of damage under optimal circumstances.
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Stuff
THIS ZONE IS HOT - ALL FRIENDLIES HAVE BEEN CLEARED - PRACTICE EXTREME PREJUDICE - REALLY, IT'S OK, GO NUTS! WE HAVE NAPALM!
lol well yes, of course, if you insist on FIREBALLing every dark corner you can expert to encounter a few flaming prisoners! :)
If we're that worried we can shout out, give the area a poke with the obligatory 10' pole, lob an enchanted stone, send the familiar with darkvision/msic useful senses into scout (throw a toad!)..
..or you could
-.o Stupid captives. Hiding in the darkness. Bound and gagged? EXSCUSES!1!!
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Note: Every fireball cast increases the chances of the caster pulling a tavern wench by +5%.
An Intensified, Empowered, Maximised Burning Hands spell cast by a level 13 Wizard does 5d4+40 damage, Vs the 1d4 done by his level 1 apprentice.
Can someone explain the math to me? Wouldn't it be 10d4+40? I'm sure I'm not calculating something right but I don't know what.
Ashiel: your examples seem to be falling into the common trap of evaluating blasting spells as single-target spells. 17.5 average damage (on a failed save no less!) for a Fireball cast by a level 5 Wizard is, of course, naff. But that's assuming that the spell is used in the least effective manner one could possibly use it in - attacking a single target... if you're playing a dedicated blaster mage, then why are you doing this? You should know better... shame on you blaster mage... ;pWe can just as easily take the opposite track, and look at the spell used in the most effective situation. That same Fireball can hit 44 targets at once (assuming we don't go completely cheesy and start to squish more than one target into each grid space). That 17.5 DPR is now 770 DPR... which is a little more impressive.
Impressive in theory, but in practice, it's pretty inconsequential. You may have dealt a ton of damage to the group, but you've dealt it in the least useful way possible. Each member of this group you've just blasted is still fully capable of inflicting full damage upon the party, and their reduced HP doesn't make the meat shields' job particularly easier when you account for action economy.
A Stinking Cloud spell cast on the same group can turn a number of the mobs into non-threats for several rounds, significantly reducing the damage the party will take in an encounter.
I find odd reading people assigning all that power to stinking cloud. Unless very favorable terrain conditions, the cloud forces monsters to retreat in cover.