Now, group has pulled out of our Bastards of Erebus campaign for a bit, as we've had one person have to leave due to a change in position that has seen him have to take up a 4 week on 2 week off roster which means he can't do 'campaign' games anymore, but we're rotating in a couple of new players (I can hear the next GM weeping already) for a total Party of Seven People now.
Incidentally, we're still having 'random' games for his benefit when he's in town, mid-level or high-level adventures for him to be able to walk in, build a character and adventure.
Now, we're going to pick up the Kingmaker Campaign ... and the new GM has pointed out Erastil is one of the most popular Gods in the region ... which has a few of us gritting our teeth and counting to ten. He's a good God for a country setting, but his attitude towards women, namely his 'stay home and have kids' irks the hell out of me personally, and I know two of our female gamers refuse to roll characters of his faith simply because he reminds them of the old-fashioned sexists who treated them and the rest of their class-mates so terribly during high-school and university.
Being one of the older gamers in the group (just turned 30) I tend to get leaned on alot with helping flesh out a campaign, and I know we're going to run into a mid-level Erastil Cleric who is going to be a very 'old school' follower, meaning extremely chauvinistic and dismissive of 'strong women' and expecting them to defer to a man at every opportunity. Now this Cleric has some decent punch to add to the campaign, but this NPC is also going to raise a lot of hackles from more 'modern' minded NPCs and the Players with his off-hand "Aw, just have some kids and leave it to the real heroes, darling." attitude.
Now I've pointed out to the GM that this will lead to a lot of conflict with the female Players, let alone the rest of us, but he's quite interested in the frustration factor for the PCs in dealing with a Lawful Good Cleric whom they just desperately want to beat the living tar out of.
However, Erastil doesn't seem to be a "Get'cha ass back in the kitchen woman!" Chauvinist, but a Deity who has blinded himself to the value a strong woman for the sake of making those who resonate closely with his own aspect as the Male Hunter/Protector of the Community the focus point of 'his' society. Also his staunch and fearless protection of 'good, honest, hard-working folk' and his kindness towards the common folk do balance out his chauvinistic tendencies. On the other hand, Erastil does give his followers a fair bit of leeway, and a Woman can become a Priest, Druid or even more rarely, a Paladin of Erastil if she has the right qualities, a love for her community and the natural world being some of those qualities.
So what I'm asking for is how can I give the GM ideas as he's bouncing around these 'additions' to the campaign arc so his Cleric doesn't have just a few encounters before somebody pushes him into a pit filled with rabid feminists.
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If players are going to be seriously upset about the actions and attitudes of an NPC, just don't use the NPC. This is supposed to be fun, not a challenge to your personal philosophy.
You wouldn't make a LG racist, homophobe, or anti-Semite, would you? Doesn't seem particularly LG behavior, does it? Also, if it offends the players, then those players are not going to be having fun. Unless the NPC is being set up for a big--and rapid--downfall.
Well I think that if it really bothers people, just change it. Instead of him being "old fashioned", make him more focused as a deity of hunting and the forest.
Also, I sincerely doubt that a cleric of Erastil would be chauvinistic and misogynistic. I played a follower of Erastil and I never acted in that manner. I think someone that plays that would be too extreme and waaay out of line, in the same vein as people that play Paladins like Judge Dredd or Chaotic Neutral as Chaotic Evil.
Now, group has pulled out of our Bastards of Erebus campaign for a bit, as we've had one person have to leave due to a change in position that has seen him have to take up a 4 week on 2 week off roster which means he can't do 'campaign' games anymore, but we're rotating in a couple of new players (I can hear the next GM weeping already) for a total Party of Seven People now.
Incidentally, we're still having 'random' games for his benefit when he's in town, mid-level or high-level adventures for him to be able to walk in, build a character and adventure.
Now, we're going to pick up the Kingmaker Campaign ... and the new GM has pointed out Erastil is one of the most popular Gods in the region ... which has a few of us gritting our teeth and counting to ten. He's a good God for a country setting, but his attitude towards women, namely his 'stay home and have kids' irks the hell out of me personally, and I know two of our female gamers refuse to roll characters of his faith simply because he reminds them of the old-fashioned sexists who treated them and the rest of their class-mates so terribly during high-school and university.
Being one of the older gamers in the group (just turned 30) I tend to get leaned on alot with helping flesh out a campaign, and I know we're going to run into a mid-level Erastil Cleric who is going to be a very 'old school' follower, meaning extremely chauvinistic and dismissive of 'strong women' and expecting them to defer to a man at every opportunity. Now this Cleric has some decent punch to add to the campaign, but this NPC is also going to raise a lot of hackles from more 'modern' minded NPCs and the Players with his off-hand "Aw, just have some kids and leave it to the real heroes, darling." attitude.
Now I've pointed out to the GM that this will lead to a lot of conflict with the female Players, let alone the rest of us, but he's quite interested in the frustration factor for the PCs in dealing with a Lawful Good Cleric whom they just desperately want to beat the living...
Well seems like your group has missed the point of erastil's domain.
He's the God of Families.You can't have a family without a man and a woman. Women running about the country side and not tending to their families (or even trying to start one) are sort of a wasted resource to him.
A Female could be a priestess of Erastil, but its likely she would be married at the right time (age).
But for example, what's "marrying age" for an elf? or a dwarf? Heck they could have a whole adventuring career, still get married, have kids and then have another adventuring career.
It's all relative.
Also, it's a Role Playing Game. "Modern", "Progressive" issues here aren't issues there.
Gods aren't 'racial' gods any more (gods of dwarves, gods of humans, gods of elves) so that whole racial issue has been removed. I think maybe your team has put too much emphasis on this gods 'judgement' of females.
Personally, i wouldn't even PLAY with females that touchy about a subject in a fantasy setting, however, I also think if I did? I would never have brought up that aspect of the god, ever, knowing about their touchiness.
That being said how about REMOVING that aspect of the god in your home games?
Maybe he just the god of harvest, and protecting the home?
don't like it? just remove it?
Or replace Erastil with Aroden in your galorian, after all, its yours.
Well obviously, there ARE people in the world (real or fictional) who have those views, and dealing with them is an opportunity for some interesting roleplay.
The best way to deal with a character (or person) like that is to prove him wrong. The female barbarian saving the downed cleric from a rampaging (insert monster here) will do a lot to change his views on the 'role' of women in the world. If the dm is interested in exploring this interaction (and not just pissing off the female players by constantly telling them to go make him a sandwich via the cleric) then have him set up the revalation of the cleric (and possibly even in the church).
The relationship starts off with him being dismissive of the women in the group, causing tension. Then set up a crucial situation where the skills of the female characters in the group are required to save the day (based on their specific characters talents). Make it a big deal both to the NPC and to the church of erastil. Who knows it could kick the first few stones down the hill of the avalanche of change in the DM's game world.
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Erastil is not about men being superior so much as he is about having defined roles within the society so everyone has a job to do and it all gets done. The traditional woman's role is to raise the children, and "adventuring" women have issues doing this. He has no problem with strong women, just women who do not fullfil their roles. Even then he is more of a "why wont you settle down and give me grandkids" kind of guy than someone who will actively try to prevent them from adventuring. He disapproves of male adventurers just as much, since they are not settling down to provide for a community.
I reccommend your GM run the NPC more as a guy trying to make sure everyone is happy. Have him introduce bachelors who could be love interests for the females. Have him ask them when they plan on settling down. If they do get married, have him ask when they will see babies. Have him do this for the men just as much.
In relationships, its not about the woman defering to the man. His concern is that people not filling their roles become disruptive to the community. Thus he has a very traditional look on gender roles.
First up, some framing. Women have not been fighting for the right to work, they are fighting for the right to choose. There is a group of hardcore feminists out there that actively deride women who choose to stay home and become mothers. There attitude is essentially, "You are worthless unless you go out and climb to the top of the corporate ladder". They refuse to accept that some women actually enjoy staying home and raising children. The point of women having rights is that the woman gets to choose for herself. I know several stay at home mothers who wouldn't take my job for twice the pay I get.
So my take on Erastil is this. He is a good god, so he would never force anyone to do things against their will, but if a woman chose to stay home and raise a family, he would bless her. If the woman was being abused, he would protect her(because the man is damaging the family). I can see a Paladin of Erastil being pretty hardcore about hunting down men who abuse their wives as this is just as bad for the family.
TLDR - I can't see a good diety forcing someone into a lifestyle, but I can see that diety blessing, protecting, and supporting those who choose to live that way.
No, this guy is apparently going to pop up sometime afterwards. And again, he's very 'old school', much like there are different beliefs within a religion, on how the texts are interpreted and intergrate with local customs and methods.
Personally, when I've GMed I've removed the somewhat tasteless part about women and instead made Erastil very unforgiving of those who don't give their all for their neighbours, making him very hard on greedy people and those who work to undermine their fellows, but also making him somewhat unforgiving of those who take revenge on communities for injustices, real or imagined or otherwise disrupt the local harmony for a 'new-danged fancy-shmancy crapola' way of living.
So, yeah, basically loveable but crotchety old grandpa of the Gods.
Technically, you can be Lawful Good and possess a burning hatred of another Race, but so long as you don't go out and start leaving piles of decapitated bodies behind you, the Gods will let it slide. Go figure. Apparently you are judged on what you did in Life, all of it, before being shuffled off to your appropriate place in the Outer/Inner Planes.
Can you just imaging, Bob is before Pharasma being judged, she's got the scroll with his life on it, reading it and muttering "... wow, he's an ass. No, wait, did some charity work, helped build an orphanage, raised two loving and happy kids ... mmmmmm'kay, Heaven, but only just."
And to the point of women running around doing all that? The same applies to men leaving their villages and towns to go get killed pointlessly and leave their families to try and run the farm or the business on their own. I get how Golarion Gods all have their blind-spots, and I love it, but sexism (either way, actually) really grinds my gears, which is a pity as otherwise I love Erastil as he's set up.
Check out a previous thread of similar topic. I'm a player in that game and approve of the changes made to Erastil.
I think peoples personal issues with real world religion might be skewing perception here. Much like in real life not all men and women of particular faith are going to push their beliefs on others. I see the church of Erastil as being similar to the Mormon faith, I game with two Mormons and one is a woman the other is not a sexist.
The cleric of Erastil could indeed believe a woman's place is at home taking care of her family and having more children to make a larger one. This fact alone should not make a group of good aligned adventures want to kill him. He could bring it up once when he meets them then drop it when they explain that life is not for them.
In the kingmaker ap there are a couple occasions where the group can recieve the blessing of Erastil in the first module alone. Maybe this cleric can witness that his diety did not discriminate against the adventuring women so maybe he shouldn't either. So start him out as a sexist if you want then let him grow into a more progressive thinker.
I think peoples personal issues with real world religion might be skewing perception here. Much like in real life not all men and women of particular faith are going to push their beliefs on others. I see the church of Erastil as being similar to the Mormon faith, I game with two Mormons and one is a woman the other is not a sexist.
The cleric of Erastil could indeed believe a woman's place is at home taking care of her family and having more children to make a larger one. This fact alone should not make a group of good aligned adventures want to kill him. He could bring it up once when he meets them then drop it when they explain that life is not for them.
In the kingmaker ap there are a couple occasions where the group can recieve the blessing of Erastil in the first module alone. Maybe this cleric can witness that his diety did not discriminate against the adventuring women so maybe he shouldn't either. So start him out as a sexist if you want then let him grow into a more progressive thinker.
I'm an ex-Mormon, and this sounds about right. Mormons are all about home and hearth, but Mormon women can and do get educations and jobs. They're not all barefoot and pregnant.
A cleric who has "old school" beliefs could easily become more enlightened when he sees what the females can do. Life is a series of lessons, after all.
One fairly easy way to step (at least partly) around this problem is to recognize that Erastil is just as interested in getting male adventurers to start a family and aid his community.
So, make the NPC cleric a woman instead of a man, and have her approach the men of the group the same way you intended to have the male version approach the women.
That way you get to keep the flavor, without making it too similar to real-life.
I think peoples personal issues with real world religion might be skewing perception here. Much like in real life not all men and women of particular faith are going to push their beliefs on others. I see the church of Erastil as being similar to the Mormon faith, I game with two Mormons and one is a woman the other is not a sexist.
The cleric of Erastil could indeed believe a woman's place is at home taking care of her family and having more children to make a larger one. This fact alone should not make a group of good aligned adventures want to kill him. He could bring it up once when he meets them then drop it when they explain that life is not for them.
In the kingmaker ap there are a couple occasions where the group can recieve the blessing of Erastil in the first module alone. Maybe this cleric can witness that his diety did not discriminate against the adventuring women so maybe he shouldn't either. So start him out as a sexist if you want then let him grow into a more progressive thinker.
Mmmm, that's what I'm trying to impress upon the GM, that the Cleric can be a chauvinist, but Erastil believes people should support each other in a relationship with the man taking the lead. Erastil also tolerates this teeth-grittingly obnoxious view of the Cleric and his fellows, but only so long as they don't permit abuse against the spouse and children and the community is the better for it.
Unfortunately we all came up through the same high-school and encountered a trio of teachers who should never have been allowed within 50 feet of another human being, let alone children. Some of the most bigoted, self-centered and hateful creatures I've encountered, and that's including Arch-Devils and Demon Lords and thus Sexism is a sore point for the group (stupidly, we'll tolerate slavers until the very second they cross the border and they're no longer protected by the law, then murder them all horribly and free the slaves, but we come across one hateful bigot or one wife-beating husband and the Party goes into Frenzy-Mode and tears them apart), and while I get having this guy around is going to help hammer home the old saying "Politics is the Second Oldest Profession in the world" (IE sometimes you have to work with people who you desperately want to see disappearing over the horizon) I feel the GM is going to create what could best be described as a 'pitfall' character, something the Players will encounter, struggle to not smite and then try to change his mind about the way things work.
GMs going for realism with this NPC, and if anyone has ever had to deal with a person who has 'hardcore' or fundamentalist views on an issue, trying to get them to change tack on their beliefs is kind of like strapping a tender part of the body between two belt-sanders set on high speed. I've at least managed to get the GM to understand that while Erastil might be a stodgy old coot of a Deity, he's as much Good (respect for life and doing the right thing) as he is Lawful (following tradition and obeying orders). Erastil might very well press people to get married, but I severely doubt he's going to order his clergy to tell everyone "Marriage and Babies equals a free trip to Heaven!" Some people might never want to get married. Others may quite simply not be able to maintain a relationship of that standard. Still others could be of more benefit to their communities without getting married.
It's not so much Erastil, although his 'The Man must lead the family' bit does make me raise my eyebrows and go "So, where's your missus, sunshine?" ((Hint: That would be AWESOME to find out if Erastil did have a 'wife' Goddess somewhere in the distant past, but she left him or he lost her and thus sprung up his male-oriented methodology!)) but the followers who would twist that divine doctrine to suit their own small-minded, petty views. I don't know why, but to me that Lawful Good orientation makes me think of Erastil as the first one to say a Woman must know her place ... and the first one to take an abusive Husband out the back and show him his place.
I could fully see the Party getting accosted by the Cleric on the way to a small collection of hunters out in the woods. Chauvinistic, but when the PCs confront him about the Hunters, Cleric turns around and says "Man's got a right to tell his woman what to do. But when a Man raises his hand 'gainst his woman, frighten's her like that, well, he's not a Man anymore." as a preclude to a righteous 'fire and brimstone' ass-whupping of the Hunters.
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Make the guy really, really old. It's adding ageism to the sexism, sure, but for some reason most of us tend to forgive old folks for holding onto out-moded views of society more than we do anyone else. And lampshade the Nine Hells out of it! Have him such an over the top 'crotchity old man' stereotype that he's transformed from an insult into a farce...
Make the guy really, really old. It's adding ageism to the sexism, sure, but for some reason most of us tend to forgive old folks for holding onto out-moded views of society more than we do anyone else. And lampshade the Nine Hells out of it! Have him such an over the top 'crotchity old man' stereotype that he's transformed from an insult into a farce...
Back in my day, a women knew her place.....
I'm old (pushing 50), and I've seen a lot of progress since the 60's in regards to women, race, sexuality, and just about every cultural meme you care to mention. I certainly no longer believe things I took as gospel when I was young. None of us do. I still learn things that make me reconsider my antiquated views!
The cranky old man idea is always funny. I'm the sort who likes humor in my game, and I love hamming it up. Make him so over the top that it's just funny, and over time he'll wise up.
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I have just created a female half orc inquisitor of Erastil.
My concept is: Eliva's conception was not pleasant for her mother, but she survived and she and her husband decided to raise the child. Elive grew up in a small community, and her mother and adoptive father, who she considers her real father, raised her kindly and well. The village, small and close-knit, also treated her well - just another member of the community, and didn't hold her antecedents against her in any way.
When her family would visit larger towns on market days she ran into the prejudice she would face in the wider world - and was grateful to the loving, close knit community, pious worshipers of Erastil, that considered family and community to be of the utmost importance.
I think looking at Erastil's attitude toward the other gods is very instructive. He dislikes Cayden Cailean's womanizing ways and thinks he needs a good strong woman to reel him in, though he's a well meaning boy. He's sad for Desna, and thinks she would be happier with someone to share her life with. He respects Iomedae, and seems vaguely upset she's left to carry the burden she carries alone, though he's proud of her for doing so.
I take from this that Erastil doesn't like people to be alone - he thinks it weakens them and leaves the more vulnerable to making bad decisions without others around to steer the wayward back onto a safe path - thus he fosters family and community. He's a little bit of a busybody matchmaker who wants to find a good partner for everyone, and everyone's grandfather in that he wants to see happy families with little rosy-cheeked children running around.
This makes him occasionally annoying, a little bit close minded, but I think his attitude can easily be presented as well meaning, even when it grates.
One of the threads that sprang up about Erastil after his longer intro in the Kingmaker AP had a great suggestion from a fellow fan: Think of Erastil as a widower still madly in love with his dead wife. He was never happier than when they were together, and he misses her every day. This makes him push everyone toward what he had, and sorely misses - it makes him do and say things others don't appreciate all the time, but it's never done out of malice or discrimination - it's mostly done out the belief that what made him blissfully happy will make everyone blissfully happy.
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While Erastil does say that women belong to the house, where they keep it clean, cook, and care for the children, he also says that men belong to the field or the hunt, making sure the woman has something to cook for them.
And it's not really because women make bad farmers, but because men make terrible wet nurses.
Erastil is against adventurers of both sexes. Adventuring is not a proper occupation for anyone. You are supposed to get a family and kids, and then make sure the family works well.
Even if someone's the defender type, protecting the community from threats, his champions and priests are rarely full-time heroes. They do it when a threat arises. The rest of the time, they advise parishoners on all things religious (and agricultural), and actually works himself.
An adventuring priest of Erastil is already an oddity. His views on some of the more touchy parts of his god's dogma will probably not fit the general consensus.
Unless he's a hypocrite, of course. Erastil has those, too.
Anyway, if it's a proper, traditional priest, he might scold the female adventurers for not raising kids, but as soon as the male party members laugh at it, he'll chew them out for not tilling a field.
Erastil's views are less sexist than his enemies claim, and what "outdated" views he has, he has because they work. Women plowing fields while men feed the kids is not a very effective strategy, and those who tried it didn't pass on their views to their offspring, because they all starved one hard winter.
Erastil's not a god of cities, where deadbeats can languish and waste their time while the underclass is exploited. He is of the villages, where people work to the best of their ability, and help each other.
That having been said, his clerics have a tendency to be good, and none can be evil. That means they might judge the adventurers for their errant ways, but they won't really oppose them, especially when they help the village against a threat the village could not have defended against itself. And nothing written down anywhere says that they must be outspoken and hostile with their views.
Oldschool belt of genderchanging.
I think your "old fashioned" Erastil cleric is sublimating too much antiquated Christian dogma and not focusing on what Erastil would want from women.
Erastil wants "strong family bonds" which is not the same thing as "subservience." Yes, you can do a "Father knows best" scenario, but once father has proven himself to be a ditz, and refused to acknowledge his mistake, that's obviously not good for "family bonds" and you have to look at the other part of Erastil's faith:
His anger is reserved for followers who betray his principles, and he usually punishes them by changing them into something more useful to their community, such as a pig or fruit tree.
Which is to say that any many who was so patriarchal and domineering as to make his wife and children miserable would be looked upon with disfavor by Old Deadeye, and if the sexist pig started to push the envelope with wifebeating, Erastil might decided that a pig would provide for the family better, especially a gravid sow, which would provide the family with many fine and tasty piglets before finally "bringing home the bacon" by becoming bacon herself.
IMHO, the "old fashioned customs" which Erastil encourages are more likely to be things like arranged marriages which involve sons as well as daughters, though I'd think Erastil would also think the such customs as handfasting would also be good, as that allows a trial marriage and if it doesn't work out, there's no stigma and the community at large still prospers.
Which is not to say that Erastil doesn't believe in such ideas as "men's work" and "women's work," but he'd also be practical enough to think that a man who can't sew on a button isn't much use to himself, and a woman who can't nock an arrow to shoot some game when her husband is unavailable is similarly pathetic.
Think less Mad Men and more Will & Grace.
Putting aside the very interesting discussion of the function of Erastil's philosophy, the model that I would use for a priest of Erastil is the stereotypical Jewish mother.
This is someone who may recognize a woman's great accomplishment, or consider her somehow "wrong" for doing it, but doesn't understand why, if you were clever enough to solve the three riddles of the Keeper of Candlemere you weren't clever enough to notice how that cute guardsman was looking at you.
This is someone who's not going to think that a female adventure was doing wrong by going out and slaying a Tazylwurm, but would it kill you to wear a dress to the party celebrating it? Who knows who's going to be there. Maybe I said something to the guardsman's dad when in the tavern and maybe I didn't, that's not relevant, the point is that he might be there. You're not getting any younger, you know, and while I'm not saying you *need* to have kids, they're a blessing. Esme just had a son. You should come to his Name Day celebration. I'm sure if you just hold him, you'll know that you want one of your own.
This is a god who likes weddings and babies, and probably sees them as the best leverage to a quiet and traditional life. Focus on that and you have a priest who's much harder to take real offense at.
I've got him to read the thread and understand that Erasil wouldn't support outright chauvinism, but he's insisting upon the backhanded version of it, but outright praise of women who fill 'normal' roles in society. Oh and he's quite interested in the 'arranged marriages' bit posted by J.S.
So he's gone from the guy we all would happily turn Evil to bury upside down in an unmarked and unsanctified grave for the pleasure of stabbing him again when he rises as a Vampire to a bumblingly offensive match-maker trying to make sure the PCs and their allies 'do the right thing' by their new community/kingdom.
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Well, it's a step in the right direction and the game hopefully won't end with the GM being dragged off to the local Hospital after the girls lodge their pewter D20's in his vital organs, so I guess that's a win. Thank you guys!
While Erastil does say that women belong to the house, where they keep it clean, cook, and care for the children, he also says that men belong to the field or the hunt, making sure the woman has something to cook for them.
And it's not really because women make bad farmers, but because men make terrible wet nurses.
Nice. I laughed hard when I read this Kae, and it makes perfect sense. Though I bet a male sorcerer or wizard could make a great wet nurse, thanks to alter self. :P
Nice. I laughed hard when I read this Kae, and it makes perfect sense. Though I bet a male sorcerer or wizard could make a great wet nurse, thanks to alter self. :PWhile Erastil does say that women belong to the house, where they keep it clean, cook, and care for the children, he also says that men belong to the field or the hunt, making sure the woman has something to cook for them.
And it's not really because women make bad farmers, but because men make terrible wet nurses.
For that kind of game you would need the spells from "The Book of Erotic Fantasy" It has gender changeing spells as well as the gestation periods for the various races. Warning however it should NOT be read by anyone under 18 years old due to the subject matter and the nudes presented.
For that kind of game you would need the spells from "The Book of Erotic Fantasy" It has gender changeing spells as well as the gestation periods for the various races. Warning however it should NOT be read by anyone under 18 years old due to the subject matter and the nudes presented.Nice. I laughed hard when I read this Kae, and it makes perfect sense. Though I bet a male sorcerer or wizard could make a great wet nurse, thanks to alter self. :PWhile Erastil does say that women belong to the house, where they keep it clean, cook, and care for the children, he also says that men belong to the field or the hunt, making sure the woman has something to cook for them.
And it's not really because women make bad farmers, but because men make terrible wet nurses.
My friend has it. I wanted a set of boots out of it for one of my PCs as well. The book itself is a mixture of good humor, good rules, bad rules, bad humor, and some really random stuff thrown in for good measure.
Half Orc Heavy Metal, Jess Door, Kae Yoss- EXCELLENT stuff. I really am amazed and impressed by your suggestions on handling a potentially prickly topic and look forward to implementing some of them when I start my Kingmaker game next month!!!
It seems like you are playing with some people who may implicitly associate gender roles with subservience. Not all of us who are "old-fashion" think that gender roles have to be a power differential. Here are some quotes your priest of Erastil can use that may work to soften the opinions of the gamers in your group toward the NPC.
"Motherhood is the greatest potential influence either for good or ill in human life. The mother's image is the first that stamps itself on the unwritten page of the young child's mind. It is her caress that first awakens a sense of security; her kiss, the first realization of affection; her sympathy and tenderness, the first assurance that there is love in the world."
"This ability and willingness to properly rear children, the gift to love, and eagerness, yes, longing to express it in soul development, make motherhood the noblest office or calling in the world."
"Great responsibility rests upon you. Upon you depend the training and the direction of the thoughts and the inspiration of the hearts of your children, for they drink into the spirit of their mothers, and the influence of the mother over the children is the most enduring impression that can be made. There is nothing so imperishable as the influence of the mother; that is when she has brought up her children in the way they should go."
Nice. I laughed hard when I read this Kae, and it makes perfect sense. Though I bet a male sorcerer or wizard could make a great wet nurse, thanks to alter self. :PWhile Erastil does say that women belong to the house, where they keep it clean, cook, and care for the children, he also says that men belong to the field or the hunt, making sure the woman has something to cook for them.
And it's not really because women make bad farmers, but because men make terrible wet nurses.
Reminds me of an old routine the German comedian Jürgen von der Lippe used to do years ago about a guy who never had any good luck and had a miserable life from the get go. It started with:
"I was very ugly as a child *ptew* *ptew* (or however you'd write down the sound of someone spitting something out of his mouth).
I was so ugly my mother refused to breastfeed me *ptew ptew*
So my father did it *ptew ptew*
Hence this spitting habit *ptew ptew*"
Nice. I laughed hard when I read this Kae, and it makes perfect sense. Though I bet a male sorcerer or wizard could make a great wet nurse, thanks to alter self. :PWhile Erastil does say that women belong to the house, where they keep it clean, cook, and care for the children, he also says that men belong to the field or the hunt, making sure the woman has something to cook for them.
And it's not really because women make bad farmers, but because men make terrible wet nurses.
Reminds me of an old routine the German comedian Jürgen von der Lippe used to do years ago about a guy who never had any good luck and had a miserable life from the get go. It started with:
"I was very ugly as a child *ptew* *ptew* (or however you'd write down the sound of someone spitting something out of his mouth).
I was so ugly my mother refused to breastfeed me *ptew ptew*
So my father did it *ptew ptew*
Hence this spitting habit *ptew ptew*"
I think that Kaeyoss gets the award for the largest laugh of the day. Ew.
I really don't see Erastil the offensive jerk in my books. I see him in the posts, but from dogma that I don't see as present or implied in his description. I don't agree with a few of the beliefs of Erastil and I am reasonably certain that (if he and his clerics were real) that I wouldn't like some of his clerics (like how I wouldn't like a portion of any group), but I see him as a great good god despite what I would call "character flaws."
Now, I do disagree with throwing an NPC or event at the party if one or more of those players have very bad personal experiences with someone similar. While I believe that provoking strong responses is nice for roleplaying, I can see this as potentially disastrous for the game and their group. (I am only getting a partial idea of what the GM intends/intended to really do with the character, might have been fine-ish. Could have be horrible. I can't tell.) I would say that a GM should be wary if a particular subject is too far for any part of their group.
I have had my share of trauma in life and i just don't see why some take everything so damned personal.
Everyone has hot button issues. Everyone. No exceptions.
I really don't see Erastil the offensive jerk in my books. I see him in the posts, but from dogma that I don't see as present or implied in his description...but I see him as a great good god despite what I would call "character flaws."
I don't think that anyone disagrees with making him a good guy. However, it's hard to take passages like:
"and while women can be strong, they should defer to and support their husbands,as their role is to look after the house and raise strong children (consequently, there are few female priests in his church). Independent-minded women, he believes, can be disruptive to communities, and it is best to marry them off quickly so their duties as wife and mother command their attention."
as not to suggest the presence of the potentially sticky dogma.
The other problem here is that there are two functional conversations; first, what Erastil is about and second, what's an interesting way to portray a priest thereof that's neither borderline heretic to the god, nor potentially annoying to the other players. That distinction between the conversations is weird, but necessary.
I have had my share of trauma in life and i just don't see why some take everything so damned personal.Everyone has hot button issues. Everyone. No exceptions.
I really don't see Erastil the offensive jerk in my books. I see him in the posts, but from dogma that I don't see as present or implied in his description...but I see him as a great good god despite what I would call "character flaws."I don't think that anyone disagrees with making him a good guy. However, it's hard to take passages like:
"and while women can be strong, they should defer to and support their husbands,as their role is to look after the house and raise strong children (consequently, there are few female priests in his church). Independent-minded women, he believes, can be disruptive to communities, and it is best to marry them off quickly so their duties as wife and mother command their attention."
as not to suggest the presence of the potentially sticky dogma.
The other problem here is that there are two functional conversations; first, what Erastil is about and second, what's an interesting way to portray a priest thereof that's neither borderline heretic to the god, nor potentially annoying to the other players. That distinction between the conversations is weird, but necessary.
I look toward the relations with other deities descriptions to see how he expresses himself about his peers. While he certainly has opinions about they all should be doing I would say that he isn't asking for weakness from female deities, nor blind subservience, nor is he telling his worshipers that the other good deities are less good for the "flaws" he is pointing out.
I wouldn't say that I couldn't see undesirable dogma cropping up among Erastil's faithful, I would say that is similar to having unfortunate elements pop up if you emphasized Cailean's drinking and other party-going aspects over his good elements.
Looking at the two functional conversations, I think that I have the same answer for both. Erastil is a man with strong opinions he has had since long ago and he is not afraid to voice them, but he isn't going punish you for disagreeing with him if you are helpful to the community. If all he is doing is tempting you to wallop him in the face or look at him with a lack of respect, that doesn't serve his goals and he would change what he is doing.
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We had a conversation about the attitudes of Erastil and his worshipers in our group. I'm the GM so my players were all looking to me for some way that a female druid (a PC in our group) could worship Erastil. Here's what I told my players.
The world is full of people who do not attain any levels in a Player Character Class. The people who do are special. Few worshipers of any deity would have need to use the abilities that are granted to clerics, druids or paladins - particularly those that reach mid to high level.
While the overall calling to those who follow Erastil may be to 'stay home and multiply!', a few receive a slightly different calling. A cleric of Erastil may hope that the time will come that she can settle and have a family. Perhaps she must defeat an enemy or reach a goal before she can but this is what's been put before her.
All things considered, in the Kingmaker campaign, this possibility presents itself. The overall goal is to settle a wild land to make it safe for families to move there.
As for the offensive NPC, its simple enough to put him his his (or her!) place by explaining that Erastil has some other test for the PC before she can aspire to settle down... and if he has anything further to say on the matter, he'd best take it up with Erastil in his prayers.
Jhod told a PC in my game to shut up and make dinner for everyone.
The target of the quip was a guy.
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In my campaign, Jhod is the High Priest and resides at the city being cleared at the Temple of the Elk. He’s attracted a number of doe-eyed waifs as followers (Leadership feat). The PCs got wind of this and was worried he had started some mind-control sex cult. They got up there and found them all (Jhod included) dirty and elbow-deep in dung planting crops.
Is the OP for real?
This is a game. If your female players are getting upset with fictional characters in a game, they need to review their priorities and stop being so up tight. Seriously.
Not even going to bother, Frozen.
Also, people seem to be mixing up (mostly due to my poor wording in the first post) that our distaste for Erastil comes mostly from 'old school' Clerics we have encountered, not the God himself, and a trio of teachers in high-school who, quite frankly, should never have been given their positions, due to how many of their female students dropped out, boycotted their classes and in one case, attempted suicide because being told over and over that they were never going to be half as good as a man, that their education was a waste of time (And please note this was a Public school and these three idiots all belonged to the one church, whom our gaming group has butted heads with several times over the past three decades). Yes he's a pushy old codger who has about as much chance of changing his ways as we have of seeing Asmodeus tip-toeing through Elysium, laughing like a child and wearing purple flares, but he doesn't seem to push his clergy to enforce his will to the point of controling the lives of the common people.
Unfortunately, here comes the part where most Religions end up causing problems, his followers. Priests who mis-interpret the teachings, either willingly or unwittingly, and produce a min-faction within the Church. I doubt there's an over-arching structure supporting the Faith of Erastil, most Priests (and the few rare Priestesses) pretty much being grounded, sensible, sympathetic people who take a very paternal stance on 'their' communities and doing their damndest so that the people can work freely and live happily without being crushed under the weight of exorbitant taxes or rampaging monsters.
Of course there will always be a few who spoil it for everyone else, just like in everything. Clerics who have been corrupted by the trust and control they possess and allow themselves to slip towards their own slant on Erastil's teachings, weak-willed or cocerred Priests whom must defer to outside forces to protect the villagers, allowing corruptions of their faith such as 'Family Roles' being subverted to 'Male Dominion' for the 'good' of a struggling community, Followers whom could not imagine their Clerics of Erastil can possibly be wrong, especially if a con-artist is at work and is claiming to be a Prophet of Erastil, using sleight of hand and some magical trinkets to pull off a sham to turn an isolated village or hamlet into his personal playground.
And in any of those three examples, you can bet Erastil will be the first one sending in a Cleric, Inquisitor or even an Aspect to 'sort out these idjits'. He might be a stodgy old bastard, but he's never been written up as senile or uncaring.
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As a general storytelling rule, whenever I find myself wanting to present a particular individual in a poor light with denigrating group of which the individual is a member at the same time (whether it's because I don't want to offend someone's real world beliefs or because I don't want my PCs getting confused about who the BBEG's followers are), I prefer to contrast the jerk with a more sympathetic portrayal of the same group through a different member, to stress the jerk's individuality.
In this case, I'd give Jhod a sidekick - another priest, by preference - who interrupts him in the middle of one of his lectures and kicks him in the shins, possibly with an added dollop of, "Oh, do stop being an ass, you old codger - these good people are adventurers," for good measure. Said sidekick could be of either gender; one possibility might even be that a female version of the character would be his wife.
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This thread again? REALLY?
People don't always remember to search or look through archives. Also, sometimes they have a specific question and would like a quick answer. Giving a helpful answer - and maybe summarizing some of the helpful points you saw in a previous similar thread - is much more helpful than snark.
:)
*dons codpeice of protection first*
Chauvinism doesn't have to be evil, bad, preachy, or even overt. Some priests follow the motto "preach, and if necessary use words". Its going to cause SOME conflict, but that's what stories are about. Not all of the conflict has to be external to the party.
-small things, the priest could open doors for people (which takes on a different importance in a dungeon) , hold a chair out for women, feel its his duty to provide the party with fresh food and meat (he doesn't expect to cook it though)
-In combat, would heal/bolster or meat shield for the female members more so than other members of the party.
-Set the female party members up with eligible bachelors in between adventures, complete with picnic baskets and wine.
-Try to introduce them to women who are happy with the "home and hearth" model.
It should be enough for the priest trying to do his duty, exasperate the characters without exasperating the players.
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I am being dragged back into this rather silly debate once more.
First of all Erastil is a god of community he is about building support structures and protecting children and making sure everybody has enough food and that the community is functioning well.
Also his aspect is that of an herd animal, when herd animals are threatened the females gather the young in the centre and form the last line of defence. The males are expendable their duty is to sacrifice themselves to drive off the predators, you only need one living male to keep the herd going and if there are males amongst the young then it doesn't matter if all the older males die but if the females and the young die it is the end of the herd and a tragedy.
Now applying this to a small town that worships Erastil, Erastil would be more than happy for the females to learn the skills of wizard and warrior because when/if that woman chooses to settle down she will be a tremendous asset to the safety of the community.
He is not about keeping women down, he wants to keep the community safe, functioning and happy.
Players should, by default, know better than to let their personal feelings bleed through into a character. That being said, a mature DM should, by default, know better than to introduce an NPC, idea, etc that would make it overly challenging for a player to do so.
Just seems like common table top courtesy to me.
Although I do like the analogy of comparing Erastil to a Jewish mother, it was spot-on.
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Also, it's a Role Playing Game. "Modern", "Progressive" issues here aren't issues there.
Gods aren't 'racial' gods any more (gods of dwarves, gods of humans, gods of elves) so that whole racial issue has been removed. I think maybe your team has put too much emphasis on this gods 'judgement' of females.
Personally, i wouldn't even PLAY with females that touchy about a subject in a fantasy setting, however, I also think if I did? I would never have brought up that aspect of the god, ever, knowing about their touchiness.
I disagree. RPGs are 'Modern and Progressive.' The players live in 2011 and their method of entertainment is reflective of the times.
One of the women who plays in my Kingmaker game plays a ranger of Erastil. She wasn't exactly pleased with that aspect when she read the deity description in #31. She eventually decided that she disagrees with official doctrine (and is NG anyway so something of a 'free sprit' in that church). Erasil keeps granting her spells every day so she clearly hasn't made him angry yet.
8)
As a side note I do think it was a poor decision to highlight that aspect of his faith in that article. I also though him a much more interesting deity before reading that.
My player, a female who plays a Ranger, saw the Celtic God The Huntsman (Cernunnos?) in Erastil. I had no problem with that perception. As a GM we get to ignore certain elements of published cannon if we wish in our home games. Particularly if it suits the needs of our players.