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IN 3.5 anyway, what you would do for a monsters stat adjustments is take the ability and minus either 10 or eleven (for an odd numbered stat). So a creature with a 24 Str would have a +14 str adjustment. 24 - 10 = 14. If it where 25, you would minus 11 instead.
If you want to keep it fairly even, concider the Dragonlance Minotaur, ot just house rule something like +2 Str and Con, -2 Dex, Int, and Cha, Medium size and the option to take Large size, Gore, and an Unarmed Strike variant as feats.
And I'm not entirely sure how to work it.
I've read the guidelines in the bestiary, but I have no idea how to work out the adjustments to his ability scores, nor do I know whether he should start at large size - and if not, what size he should get it!
He's aiming for a Monk/Fighter pugilist, so it's mostly just the Large size thing he wants, doesn't have to specifically be a Minotaur.
Oh dear.
I can't give you any direction in terms of how to wrangle the numbers, but I once played a minotaur in a 2nd edition game. To preserve game balance, the DM made me the subject of some severe racism. Regular folk just aren't used to seeing minotaurs wandering into the local pub!
If he is looking only for a large size you may want to look at the half ogre in one of the 3.5 books its only a +1 level adjustment. I do have to agree that fear / prejudice would likely be an obstacle for this PC.
Minotaur stat adjustments are STR +8, CON +4, INT -4, CHA -2.
You could let him start as a plain Minotaur at level 4, and he'd get his first class level when reaching level 5.
If your player wants to start at an earlier level than that, I'd say you'd have to make some kind of "Half-Minotaur" race, with lower stat adjustments.
If you start at level 4, he'd already be Large, and have the number of HD the Bestiary says a Minotaur has. Essentially, the only change from the Minotaur as written in the Bestiary would be the stats. So, the player rolls stats (or uses point buy), then adds the modifiers. Then, adjust the Minotaur stat block according to the new stats, and you're good to go :)
(the player would of course get PC wealth as opposed to the regular Minotaur equipment, and could change feats and skill selections)
Derfelcadarn, I'm not sure if it's what you're looking for, but...
One of my players wanted a Medium-sized minotaur cohort (to easier fit in dungeons, etc.) so the two of us worked a minotaur backwards via the young and simple templates and then a bit of tweaking:
Minotaur runt
+4 Strength, -2 Charisma: While weak for minotaurs, a minotaur runt is still strong in human terms but they make civilized folk wary.
Medium: Minotaur runts are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Minotaur runts have a base speed of 30 ft.
Darkvision: Minotaur runts see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Natural Cunning: As the minotaur ability.
Armor: Minotaur runts have a +2 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: Minotaur runts have a gore attack that does 1d4 piercing damage. This is considered a primary attack, or a secondary attack if used in a full-attack action with manufactured weapons.
Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur runt begins with three levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 3d10 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +3.
Racial Skills: A minotaur runt's monstrous humanoid levels give it 3 x (4+Int modifier) skill ranks. Its class skills are Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
Racial Feats: A minotaur runt's monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats.
Weapon Familiarity: Minotaur runts are proficient with all simple weapons and the greataxe, and treat the double crossbow as a martial weapon.
Languages: Minotaur runts begin play speaking Common and Giant. Half-orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Gnoll, Goblin, and Orc.
A minotaur runt loses out on the powerful charge ability and Large size, but is pretty much playable alongside a level three party with no need for level adjustment or any other adjustment shenanigans (equal HD to a party member means no additional bookkeeping for effects that are based on total HD, such as fear, cloudkill, etc.); it can just take class levels as per normal from there. :3
I am not sure why people give creatures such big bonuses. If it has a 24 in strength so you give it a +14 to strength then you add in the PC's stat (lets say 16) and you get 30, which is considerable stronger then a minotaur
A monster should not be stronger then others of his kind just because he took a level as a PC
If you give him a +6 on the other hand (minotaurs are too strong to be PC's and I don't allow anything with any stat over 20) and add that 16 then he gets a 24.
There was a feat in "101 Feats" IIRC that allowed a PC to be treated as large in a limited way, but could only be taken at first level. Perhaps this may solve his desire to be large without being unable to fit into smaller places (where small PCs have no prob and Med are cramped)...
A monster should not be stronger then others of his kind just because he took a level as a PC
The average human commoner has base 13-12-11-10-9-8 stats. So you may as well ask why a PC human should have better stats.
A monster should not be stronger then others of his kind just because he took a level as a PC
The average human commoner has base 13-12-11-10-9-8 stats. So you may as well ask why a PC human should have better stats.
A human is not a monster, exceptional humans adventure, but any minotaur can roam wherever the F**k he pleases.
That is why humans are CR 1/2 and most monsters are considerably higher, give me any other CR 1/2-1 creature and yeah it needs to be an exceptional version of its race to face things that are 10x there race just by being born.
I am not sure why people give creatures such big bonuses. If it has a 24 in strength so you give it a +14 to strength then you add in the PC's stat (lets say 16) and you get 30, which is considerable stronger then a minotaur
A monster should not be stronger then others of his kind just because he took a level as a PC
If you give him a +6 on the other hand (minotaurs are too strong to be PC's and I don't allow anything with any stat over 20) and add that 16 then he gets a 24.
you might want to edit that quickly
A monster should not be stronger then others of his kind just because he took a level as a PC
The average human commoner has base 13-12-11-10-9-8 stats. So you may as well ask why a PC human should have better stats.
A human is not a monster, exceptional humans adventure, but any minotaur can roam wherever the F**k he pleases.
That is why humans are CR 1/2 and most monsters are considerably higher, give me any other CR 1/2-1 creature and yeah it needs to be an exceptional version of its race to face things that are 10x there race just by being born.
You just hit the point. Exceptional humans adventure. In a human centric world, only an exceptional Minotaur would adventure. That's sort of the point.
Having said that, Minotaurs are, in my experience running monsters (did a two year monster campaign, last 8 months were in PF) the minotaur is about the highest you want to allow as a PC.
A minotaur would follow the following progression :
Level 4 : Minotaur 6D10
Level 5 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 1
Level 6 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 2
Level 6.5:Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 3
Level 7 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 4
Level 8 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 5
Level 9 : Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 6
Level 9.5:Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 7
Level 10: Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 8
Level 11: Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 9
...
Level 20: Minotaur 6D10/Class Level 18
Note that the racial hit dice are not maxed at 1st level, only his first Class Level are maxed at the first class level (character level 5). So, his HP at level 4 are 33 + (6 * CON MOD). At 5th, he gains Max HD for class level + CON MOD.
Skill points at Level 4 are : 24 + (INT MOD * 6)
Skill points equal to 4 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for monstrous humanoids: Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
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This again? I've answered this one before.
In short...
Your minotaur racial traits would look something like this:
Ability Modifiers: +8 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -2 Cha
Size: Large (10 x 10 ft.)
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (6 HD)
Speed: 30 ft.
Reach: 10 ft.
Armor Class: +5 natural armor bonus
Natural Attacks: Gore (primary attack, base 1d6 damage)
Skills: Racial Modifiers: +4 Perception, +4 Survival
Special Attacks: Powerful Charge (Gore: base 2d6 + [1.5 x Strength mod])
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., Natural Cunning
You may only play such a character in a 4th-level or higher group. Your progression compared to the party's should look something like this:
6/00; 04
6/01; 05
6/02; 06
6/04; 07
6/05; 08
6/06; 09
6/08; 10
6/09; 11
6/10; 12
6/11; 13
6/12; 14
6/13; 15
6/14; 16
6/15; 17
6/16; 18
6/17; 19
6/18; 20
The left most column is you (racial HD/class levels) whereas the right most column are the class levels possessed by the more traditional members of your party. The bold areas are when you gain your "bonus levels."
Due to your 6 levels of "monstrous humanoid" you have the following base stats BEFORE class levels:
HP: 6d10 + (con x 6)
Base saves: +2 Fort, +5 Ref, +5 Will
Base Attack: +6
Bonus Armor/Weapon Proficiencies: All simple weapons plus greataxe (regardless of class)
Skills: You have 24 ranks to assign (modified for intelligence) and you can have up to 6 ranks in any given skill. Your class skills are Climb, Craft, Fly, Intimidate, Perception, Ride, Stealth, Survival, and Swim.
Feats: You gain feats for monster HD, just like you do class levels. Essentially you use the sum of your HD and your class levels to determine when you get feats, just as you would between different classes when multiclassing. For example, a 6 HD minotaur would have 3 feats, whereas a minotaur cleric 2 would have 4.
Starting Languages: Giant (with NO bonus languages for high intelligence...that I'm aware of--check with your GM)
When you add on class levels, you follow all the same rules for multiclassing. You can also start benefiting from your favored class bonuses (as you can't choose your racial type as a favored class).
That's about it I think. If you have any other questions about playing monstrous characters, feel free to let me know.
EDIT: Don't forget your size modifiers (-1 AC/attacks, +1 CMB/CMD, -4 Stealth, etc.)
EDIT 2: The minotaur is given the same amount of starting funds as the other characters. Thus, if everyone is 4th-level, then each character (including the possibly unbalanced minotaur) starts with 6,000gp. What people do with that money can make a big difference.
All of the above assumes you play by the Bestiary's "Monsters as PCs" rules very strictly, and as such may not be balanced throughout the entire character's progression. As such, check with your GM before play begins to see if he would like to make adjustments (and don't get pissy if he decides to make adjustments after play starts).
I hope that helps!
Another option would just be to "reskin" a prexisting race (like a half-orc). Afterall, there's not really that much difference when you come down to it (both have got darkvision). You might just switch out the ferocity and intimidation bonus for the natural cunning ability, for example.
HP: 10 + 5d10 + (con x 6)
Racial hit dice don't get maxed at first level, so it should be 6d10 + (Con x 6). If you do average, it'd be 33 + (Con x 6).
HP: 10 + 5d10 + (con x 6)Racial hit dice don't get maxed at first level, so it should be 6d10 + (Con x 6). If you do average, it'd be 33 + (Con x 6).
Yeah, I fixed it before seeing your post. I copy and pasted from an older a thread, which itself came from a time BEFORE that ruling was made.
You just hit the point. Exceptional humans adventure. In a human centric world, only an exceptional Minotaur would adventure. That's sort of the point.
exceptional minotaurs don't start at level one (unlike there human counterparts)
So why not build it as a standard version and not worry about the level adjustment.
Still as strong as a minotaur but can adventure from level one
You just hit the point. Exceptional humans adventure. In a human centric world, only an exceptional Minotaur would adventure. That's sort of the point.
exceptional minotaurs don't start at level one (unlike there human counterparts)
So why not build it as a standard version and not worry about the level adjustment.
Still as strong as a minotaur but can adventure from level one
You can house rule it however you want. However, the minotaur PC should be balanced against the rest of the party. If you've got 3 1st level humans, a Minotaur is too powerful. They'll be his minions for all intents and purposes.
Think of it another way, a minotaur should be either a trade off (6 average HD rolls and very good stats in exchange for losing 4 class levels, or 2 over time). You're giving up something in exchange for something else.
EDIT : If you really wanted a minotaur at 1st level, though, you'd have to do something like 3d10 hp, 1/4 stat bonuses, 1/4 stat penalties, and give 1d10 hit die and 1/4 stat bonus and 1/4 stat penalty per level (plus skills).
You can house rule it however you want. However, the minotaur PC should be balanced against the rest of the party. If you've got 3 1st level humans, a Minotaur is too powerful. They'll be his minions for all intents and purposes.
Think of it another way, a minotaur should be either a trade off (6 average HD rolls and very good stats in exchange for losing 4 class levels, or 2 over time). You're giving up something in exchange for something else.
EDIT : If you really wanted a minotaur at 1st level, though, you'd have to do something like 3d10 hp, 1/4 stat bonuses, 1/4 stat penalties, and give 1d10 hit die and 1/4 stat bonus and 1/4 stat penalty per level (plus skills).
If I have three 1st level exceptional humans and one average minotaur with a level in fighter i believe I have a balanced party.
He gets what everyone else gets, two stat boosts and a penalty (albiet larger ones due to being a little strong, as I said earlier stats over 20 don't mesh well with level 1) and one class hit die (makes way more sense and takes way less time then racial ones).
Why punish the player for wanting to be a minotaur?
and this is all houserules, monsters aren't made to be PC's
You can house rule it however you want. However, the minotaur PC should be balanced against the rest of the party. If you've got 3 1st level humans, a Minotaur is too powerful. They'll be his minions for all intents and purposes.
Think of it another way, a minotaur should be either a trade off (6 average HD rolls and very good stats in exchange for losing 4 class levels, or 2 over time). You're giving up something in exchange for something else.
EDIT : If you really wanted a minotaur at 1st level, though, you'd have to do something like 3d10 hp, 1/4 stat bonuses, 1/4 stat penalties, and give 1d10 hit die and 1/4 stat bonus and 1/4 stat penalty per level (plus skills).
If I have three 1st level exceptional humans and one average minotaur with a level in fighter i believe I have a balanced party.
He gets what everyone else gets, two stat boosts and a penalty (albiet larger ones due to being a little strong, as I said earlier stats over 20 don't mesh well with level 1) and one class hit die (makes way more sense and takes way less time then racial ones).
Why punish the player for wanting to be a minotaur?
and this is all houserules, monsters aren't made to be PC's
*shrug*
As I said, do whatever you want when you house rule. But you're player isn't playing a Minotaur. A minotaur is a specific creature race. You might just as well paint an elf green and call it a lanky orc. Doesn't mean he is an orc. Or force feed a halfling until he weighs 400 lbs and call him an ogre. He's not.
As to all monsters being houserules, Bestiary begs to disagree. The core rules have rules for playing PCs who are monstrous. They are optional, and stopgap until Paizo does a full book on it, but they are not house rules. Optional does not equal house rule. It's just like the APG, it's optional core rules. If you don't want to use it, don't. But don't claim it's house rules.
A minotaur is a specific creature, an exceptional minotaur that could kick the ass of any other minotaur isn't a very specific anything.
I just don't think an advanced giant minotaur should have the same stats as one with a level in bard (and the 20 point buy that comes with it).
All I'm saying
A minotaur is a specific creature, an exceptional minotaur that could kick the ass of any other minotaur isn't a very specific anything.
I just don't think an advanced giant minotaur should have the same stats as one with a level in bard (and the 20 point buy that comes with it).
All I'm saying
Actually,
An Advanced Giant Minotaur would be CR 6.A minotaur with a level in Bard would be CR4 and change.
Your AGMino would have +5 Natural AC, +8 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +4 Cha. He'd also increase his damage by 1 step, due to being large sized.
A more appropriate comparison would be a Minotaur Bard 4, which would be CR 6, and closer to the monster you indicated.
Actually,
An Advanced Giant Minotaur would be CR 6.A minotaur with a level in Bard would be CR4 and change.
Your AGMino would have +5 Natural AC, +8 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +4 Cha. He'd also increase his damage by 1 step, due to being large sized.
A more appropriate comparison would be a Minotaur Bard 4, which would be CR 6, and closer to the monster you indicated.
Just comparing stats, having a +14 to STR and the other ridiculous bonuses derived from using a base 10 can easily result in a 32 in STR which matches the +8 given to the advanced giant mino. (this is just comparing stats, the other bonuses tip the scales)
Now I know this comes with a level adjustment, but pathfinder seems to be trying to move away from those because its annoying to miss your first few character levels, I prefer to give stat boosts to monster PC's that come closer to the base creature.
Homebrew maybe, an option for the OP (assuming he would rather start at level one) definitely.
Until those nasty adventuer/bounty hunter/dogooder types get in the way.
A human is not a monster, exceptional humans adventure, but any minotaur can roam wherever the F**k he pleases.
I take it you mean the rest of the player party?
Why shouldn't they react to a Minotaur the same way they would react to any other "monster" that they encounter?
Until those nasty adventuer/bounty hunter/dogooder types get in the way.
A human is not a monster, exceptional humans adventure, but any minotaur can roam wherever the F**k he pleases.
I take it you mean the rest of the player party?
Why shouldn't they react to a Minotaur the same way they would react to any other "monster" that they encounter?
I don't see anywhere where anyone said the GM had to allow anything. The OP is the GM, his player wants to play a Mino, the GM wants to allow it. What's your problem?
Until those nasty adventuer/bounty hunter/dogooder types get in the way.
A human is not a monster, exceptional humans adventure, but any minotaur can roam wherever the F**k he pleases.
I take it you mean the rest of the player party?
Why shouldn't they react to a Minotaur the same way they would react to any other "monster" that they encounter?
I don't see anywhere where anyone said the GM had to allow anything. The OP is the GM, his player wants to play a Mino, the GM wants to allow it. What's your problem?
"Even if the GM is willing to allow it, does that mean that the rest of the group has to stop role-playing?"
"Even if the GM is willing to allow it, does that mean that the rest of the group has to stop role-playing?"
Oh, @#*#*& no. There had better be, in a normal campaign, a @*$#& good reason for the minotaur to be in the group.
If it's a new game, there better be a back story provided where the party was at the mercy of some hobgoblins and an adolescent Mino was in the cage with them, and they escaped together. The Mino's family had been killed, and the adventurer's felt responsible for it since it helped them escape or something.
If it's joining a group already established, that Mino better save the entire party, or have some other really really good reason for them to trust him. And NPCs are not going to trust it until it proves itself, and there are going to be some NPCs that never trust it no matter what.
Now, if the game world has good Mino's (which is entirely possible) and people know about it, then maybe the Mino doesn't have as many issues, it all depends on the world setting.
Fyre in Eberron monstrous races are allowed in cities as long as they behave, even though some require a handler. Maybe the OP's world is the same way. Medusa's are even allowed, but they have to wear a special mask so they don't petrify anyone. Keith Baker had articles on the website that went into things that did not make it into any of the books if you are wondering where I am getting this from.
Fyre in Eberron monstrous races are allowed in cities as long as they behave, even though some require a handler. Maybe the OP's world is the same way. Medusa's are even allowed, but they have to wear a special mask so they don't petrify anyone. Keith Baker had articles on the website that went into things that did not make it into any of the books if you are wondering where I am getting this from.
Actually, I wasn't familiar enough with Eberron to dispute you. :)
I recommend this: In the Company of Minotaurs
I recommend this: In the Company of Minotaurs
That would be the Rite thing to do.
And I'm not entirely sure how to work it.
I've read the guidelines in the bestiary, but I have no idea how to work out the adjustments to his ability scores, nor do I know whether he should start at large size - and if not, what size he should get it!
He's aiming for a Monk/Fighter pugilist, so it's mostly just the Large size thing he wants, doesn't have to specifically be a Minotaur.Oh dear.
I can't give you any direction in terms of how to wrangle the numbers, but I once played a minotaur in a 2nd edition game. To preserve game balance, the DM made me the subject of some severe racism. Regular folk just aren't used to seeing minotaurs wandering into the local pub!
In all my games, there is ALWAYS a bar with a minotaur bartender. This is also a cue to the players that a brawl is about to go down.
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I recommend this: In the Company of Minotaurs
I'm glad someone beat me to it, as I missed this thread yesterday. Not only does this allow you to play a taurian character (ie. minotaur) from 1st level up, but it provides class archetypes and a racial paragon class for the race as well. I designed the paragon class to mimic the minotaur so that by the time you are a 5th or 6th level member of the class, you will be the equivalent of the creature in the Bestiary.
I don't know if it's acceptable or not, but you could try something with that new "Fursona" book from Skortched Urf here on the site. They do have rules for how to make a large Bull-man, among many other things.
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See, I didnt care for that one so much. If you want a greek monster, it works, but it was too confining, imo
My first thought is that you can always change the background material/backstory of the race. But perhaps I am misunderstanding what was confining.
If you don't mind me asking, what, in regards to the actual racial traits, archetypes and paragon class did you find confining and what would you have preferred to see. Would more options for customization helped or are you just looking for a complete fluff/crunch package more in line with your campaign world?
I can't promise to necessarily fulfill all your needs, but the better I understand what different people want, the easier it is to increase the options.
We played one 3.5 campaign with one player being a minotaur Monk (9 ECL at the start). I was dwarf Transmuter (ECL 1 at start). Boy did I get fast XP :D. If players are filling different roles / good with a bit lesser role (in combat ONLY!), the differences in the character level don't matter so much (well obviously if someone is far highest in CL he/she has to tank).
Open Design's Midgard Setting patronage project will have Pathfinder stats for playable Minotaurs. The final book is a year away, but patrons will get access a lot sooner. There is an island and a port city with minotaurs, including some Minotaur pirates.
