RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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All,
I'm a little confused regarding the rules for my Cavalier's mount's hoof attacks. The entry for Horse under the Druid's animal companions (Core Rulebook, page 54) indicates that at level 1, the horse has 2 hooves as secondary natural attacks.
The Horse entry in the Bestiary (page 177) gives Horses the Docile Special Quality, which states that "Unless specially trained for combat. . . a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks."
However, the Cavalier entry in the Advanced Player's Guide (page 33) states that "The mount is always considered combat trained. . . "
My question is, should my horse's hooves be treated as primary attacks, because the mount is combat trained, and thus the Docile ability no longer applies? Or are they still secondary attacks, because the horse has a primary bite attack, and thus all of its other attacks (i.e. its hooves) should be secondary?
It seems odd to me that a horse should have two primary attacks (both the bite and hooves), so my initial assumption is that the hooves should be secondary attacks, but I'd like to know for sure.
Thanks!
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My question is, should my horse's hooves be treated as primary attacks, because the mount is combat trained, and thus the Docile ability no longer applies? Or are they still secondary attacks, because the horse has a primary bite attack, and thus all of its other attacks (i.e. its hooves) should be secondary?
A combat trained horse's hooves are Primary attacks. If it's a heavy warhorse it has one Primary bite attack at 1d4 damage, and two Primary hoof attacks at 1d6 each. Check the rules on p.301 to 302 of the Bestiary under 'Natural Attacks' for more information on the difference between Primary and Secondary attacks.
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All,
My question is, should my horse's hooves be treated as primary attacks, because the mount is combat trained, and thus the Docile ability no longer applies? Or are they still secondary attacks, because the horse has a primary bite attack, and thus all of its other attacks (i.e. its hooves) should be secondary?
It seems odd to me that a horse should have two primary attacks (both the bite and hooves), so my initial assumption is that the hooves should be secondary attacks, but I'd like to know for sure.
Thanks!
My understanding is that the fact that the Cavalier's horse is combat trained means that the hooves are primary attacks, making it a bit better than a druid's horse companion.
But the base Horse from the bestiary only has the Hoof attacks... Isn't that Docile feature meant to weaken the Horse? Hooves are normally secondary, but if a secondary attack is a monster's only form of attack it becomes primary, the Docile feature cancels that out.
My read on it is that if you give the base horse combat training, the hooves would become primaries just like any other monster that only has hoof attacks. On the advanced heavy horse the docile feature is tits on a bull since it has a bite attack. That makes it so that the hooves are supposed to stay secondary.
As far as the animal companion horse goes, it doesn't say anywhere that it has the Docile feature, so for druids and cavaliers it's a moot point.
But the base Horse from the bestiary only has the Hoof attacks... Isn't that Docile feature meant to weaken the Horse? Hooves are normally secondary, but if a secondary attack is a monster's only form of attack it becomes primary, the Docile feature cancels that out.
Never, ever, ever use the bestiary animal listings for the animal companions of Druids, Rangers or Cavalier's special mounts. The animal companion listings and details in the Core Rules supercede the Bestiary since the stats for animal companions were specifically written as class abilities and not as monsters or animals and hence they are balanced as such and do not compare 100% logically to the animal listings in the book.
You're fine using the feats from there for them but totally ignore the actual animal entries.
BTW since the Cavaliers mount is always battle trained, it's hooves are a primary attack.
As well, if you wanted to be ultra specific, a cavalier cannot get a 'Heavy Horse' since they have a 'Horse' animal companion not a bestiary 'Horse or Heavy Horse' and hence cannot add the advanced simple tenmplate on their horse (which technically happens anyways at level 4 or 7 I think for the animal companion).
In the long run, since the animal companion gets far better than a heavy horse eventually anyways, you can call it anything you want and it will in no way impact what it is (unless your ref is a former horse breeder and owner and has an animal sciences degree and then you will have a totally silly 4 hour long argument on the cavailer, it's mount and game balance vis-a-vis animal companions.)
And yes, that has happened to me very recently.
It bugs me that the horse companion gets war-trained at 4th level.
Who has a horse companion and doesn't use its base 6 tricks to combat train it at 1st level? (If they want it to track and work and perform those are easily added after a handful of levels.)
And if they don't, at 4th level do they automatically have to spend all their available tricks to get up to combat-trained, or does that just make the hooves primary attacks without requiring the combat-trained tricks, or does the horse get them all as bonus tricks that don't take up a slot?
I'm going to have war-trained give the horse all armor proficiencies so it's actually some sort of benefit. Unless I've missed some clarification of the ability that someone could share with me.