Currently I'm running a game that heavily story based and role play driven. I'm trying to come up with new and interesting ways to give more depth to the game other than "I hit it with my sword."
When I say challenging the character's, I mean something along the lines of what Heath Ledger's Joker did to Christian Bales Batman in The Dark Knight. I want more than just the quintessential Spiderman "pick between who you wanna save" scenario.
Currently in the game the players are about to discover that someone who is going to give them information is actually being controlled by the rival group because they have captured his family. I would like to try to challenge the players and their character's morals in the game, both good vs. evil and law vs. chaos. This time in game would be a good way to incorporate that, but it's not a necessity.
Any help with this would be great! Also, it doesn't have to be for this one scenario. It could range a multitude of scenarios. I have a few ideas but I wanted to see what help I could get from the forums on this. The rest of my game right now is open (I have the basic storyline arcs and ending and such) but I'm always coming up with new things to throw into the middle of it. Any scenario that can accomplish this is great.
The group is made up of all non evil characters. I have a back story for each but I'm not going to write all that down. Also, the scenarios that you give (if anyone gives any at all) don't need to be specific to the characters that I'm going to list. They can be broad and for any group and I can tailor them to fit, but just for those people that wanna group make up, I will provide the players classes and alignments. Some players are neutral but they have goodhearted intentions.
1) Neutral Dwarven Fighter (going into Stalwart Defender)
2) Neutral Human Sorcerer (Air Elemental Bloodline)
3) Neutral Elven Alchemist
4) Neutral Good Human Oracle (Lore Mystery)
5) Lawful Neutral Half Elf Sorcerer (Starsoul Bloodline, I think he's gonna try and multiclass into EK but it's too late in game level wise to make it any good, since they will soon be 7th level and we are ening round 12th - 14th)
6) Chaotic Good Human Cleric of Gorum
7) Chaotic Good Aasimar Ranger (Archery style)
NPC's accompanying
1) The Air Elemental Sorcerer's father who was recently saved (Neutral Good).
2) A human Rogue (Acrobat Archetype) who is wanting to make a difference in the world by helping the party (Chaotic Good).
3) A Noble Wild jaguar who has also chosen to help the party for his own intentions (Neutral Good).
Any help/scenarios are greatly appreciated. Like I said, they don't have to be specific cause I can tailor the examples to my group. Thanks for reading through this (I know it's kinda long).
Thanks in advance.
Give your villains motivations that most people can sympathize with. Instead of making them evil for evil's sake, they seek power to protect those they love.
After the PCs defeat the evil wizard and are about to deliver the final blow, have the wizard's pre-teen daughter run onto the stage and beg the PCs not to kill daddy.
When the PCs are sent to clear the surrounding forest of raiding orcs, allow them to stumble upon the entire tribe just trying to survive day to day after the humans have grabbed up all of the surrounding resources.
Take your 'evil' and walk it back to where you can almost justify it.
One of my favorite dilemmas to throw at my players is having to choose between two good things that are at opposition with each other. A simple example would be that the party finds a magic item that is sacred to two faiths of the local area. This item is priceless to both faiths and both are willing to give a similar, small, reward.
This item will greatly benefit one group, but in so doing will weaken the ability of the other group to feed themselves. You don't have to tell them why, only that by giving this item to either side, the other will suffer. To make it truly gut wrenching, have children...sick children...on both sides along with elderly. Neither side wishes the other any ill will but both have a valid claim to whatever item.
See if they can find a solution if you even want a solution to be found. If they keep the item, the two faiths will beseech the aid of a group of passing by paladins to recover the item as a group of adventurers have stolen it. :)
OR
Give them irrefutable evidence that there is an artifact hidden somewhere that is dangerous beyond belief. See if they bite. If they do, they arrive in time to meet another adventuring group that has already recovered the artifact. This group is has a cleric of the nicest most good god in your world and also has a paladin. Everyone is great. But your party learns that this other groups intention for the artifact is the very thing that will unleash a terrible something. However, the two holy men have given their oath to someone that they will do whatever it is they shouldn't do. Your party is unable to convince them to part with the object. What will your party do? Allow a terrible thing to happen, or start a fight with good people to keep them from doing something that may be terrible.
Have them face an obviously very pregnant evil spellcaster
Evil conqueror that is loved by his own people, bringing the pc's at odds with extremely loyal non-evil or good aligned subjects to deal with.
Party is given a mission to destroy a dam to stop the advance of a horde of evil humanoids, unfortunately a farm family lives in the valley to be flooded.
Throwing a nursery (or younglings) in the path of your PCs while exploring enemy ground... Like orc or goblin caves. Do they slaughter these innocent infants? If not, what do they do with them?
Ultradan
The party is hired by the mayor (or governor, king, etc.) of a heavily lawful town to investigate a series of thefts that have been occurring recently. It started as minor theft of food, cloth, and other marketplace items, but has recently escilated to breaking-and-entering, stealing clothes and household items, and now children of the town are disappearing as well. Through a long and mysterious detective-style search, give the PC's evidence that it may be Evil Gnomes...only to discover that it is the children of the town, running away to live in an abandoned *insert place here*. When taking this info to the "ruler" who hired them, he demands they be brought to trial, using force if necessary. If they're brought to trial, these children will be punished the same as anyone else who breaks the law: death.
What do they do? The families obviously want their children back, they obviously are to be punished as per the laws of the town, but they are good children who are unhappy and taking what they need to survive.
Walk them very slowly and gradually down a path of evil acts. You have a NPC ready to give them info and "assignments":
1. Clear a flophouse of criminals sheltering there (Not evil)
2. Gain (illegal) access to government buildings for intelligence on the guild/organization that oversaw the tenement (Not especially evil)
3. Use that access to prevent the lawful authorities from interfering with your plans (Could be a little evil, or could be means to an end)
4. Kidnap a local noble to "protect" him/her from assassins (Might be a little chaotic, but not necessarily evil)
5. "Send a message" to the criminal guild by taking down one of their secret arms suppliers, by burning his shop (a front) to the ground (definitely sort of evil)
6. Use government access to get into the courthouse and prevent the release of dangerous guild allies... Permanently (Starting to be very evil)
7. etc..
Adjust the story to fit whatever the evil group is, of course. Always begin with beneficial acts that can still further the BBEG's goals. Move to benign. Then blur the lines of morality, until you get to full on malevolence.
Pass the 'Patriot Act'.
<.<
>.>
What?!
Give your villains motivations that most people can sympathize with. Instead of making them evil for evil's sake, they seek power to protect those they love.
After the PCs defeat the evil wizard and are about to deliver the final blow, have the wizard's pre-teen daughter run onto the stage and beg the PCs not to kill daddy.
When the PCs are sent to clear the surrounding forest of raiding orcs, allow them to stumble upon the entire tribe just trying to survive day to day after the humans have grabbed up all of the surrounding resources.
Take your 'evil' and walk it back to where you can almost justify it.
The final BBEG I actually did do the "shades of gray" to his evil plans, the players just haven't gotten that far yet. That's the ending of the game. Just need something for in between. Thanks for your input.
Give them irrefutable evidence that there is an artifact hidden somewhere that is dangerous beyond belief. See if they bite. If they do, they arrive in time to meet another adventuring group that has already recovered the artifact. This group is has a cleric of the nicest most good god in your world and also has a paladin. Everyone is great. But your party learns that this other groups intention for the artifact is the very thing that will unleash a terrible something. However, the two holy men have given their oath to someone that they will do whatever it is they shouldn't do. Your party is unable to convince them to part with the object. What will your party do? Allow a terrible thing to happen, or start a fight with good people to keep them from doing something that may be terrible.
I love this idea. Im so using it.
Would love some more ideas if anybodys got anything.
Would love some more ideas if anybodys got anything.
Ah, moral ambiguity. One of my favorites.
Always remember that most, if not all, "evil" people would not consider themselves such. They believe they're doing what's right, either for themselves or the people around them.
As for ideas?
Rival trade houses are fighting when one hires the PCs to dig up dirt on the other because "they know they're up to something". The dirt they find is strewn across both houses, but they won't get paid unless they bring it to their employer's attention. Then they're approached from members of third group willing to pay very well for such information. To whom should they give the information? That third group could well be the local crime boss, a right bastard trade house, etc.
An investigation into a murder leads to information that the Local Lord put out a hit on the victim. Victim could be the son of a hated, "evil" rival lord or king, or some other "innocent but for association" character. The Local Lord is less interested in killing this particular individual than in hurting someone whom he feels has wronged him, or to whom he wishes to "send a message". Political machinations are rife with moral ambiguity if for no other reason than loyalty. "Go here, do this, don't ask questions. I'm your Lord!"
I could go on (and if you'd like me to I will) but I'll end here by offering this:
Alignment is a tricky beast. I wouldn't advise ignoring it, but keep in mind what the PCs are willing to do (ie: kill things) while maintaining their alignment. Killing humanoids, in itself, is not an evil act. "The greater good" is a prime example of the gray area you're looking for.
Oh, and remember that people may do a great deal out of hate, but they'll do nearly anything for love. Love of another, of family, of one's liege, of their aspirations, of gold, etc.
Just some thoughts. :)
ChrisO
Out of curiosity, does Kingmaker have anything like this built in? I'm looking into starting a game of that in the next few months, and if it doesn't, I'm certainly going to try to add some tough moral choices like these to the game. No need to tell me what (although you can if you want), just whether.
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First, observe which of your Players would really enjoy this and which would really hate it. Some Players (such as me) really love this kind of stuff in their D&D. Some REALLY Hate Alignment stuff in their game.
Be cognizant of which PC or PCs you throw these moral dilemmas at and make sure they're being run by a Player who will have fun struggling through the mire.
. . . . As for what I like to do, I make it about the NPCs instead of the PCs; so, instead of making the Paladin face a hard choice cuz of his Code, I make the NPC that everyone likes a little bit "morally-bad." And then see how the PCs handle it.
Then, regardless of whatever justification or choice they make, as long as they wrestle through it, it's okay.
Would love some more ideas if anybodys got anything.Ah, moral ambiguity. One of my favorites.
Always remember that most, if not all, "evil" people would not consider themselves such. They believe they're doing what's right, either for themselves or the people around them.
I actually wrote a one page paper on how to make a villain more of a person than just some thoughtless bad guy that does evil acts "just cause." i believe there should be a reason. not saying ":P ive already done this." just saying that we are on the same page ;)
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Inspired by a character in Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, a couple years ago the PCs in a campaign I ran, stuck in a hostile wilderness, met a friendly, non-evil NPC who had a very defensible and well stocked home that he would shelter the PCs in should they need rest, revovery, regional info, etc. It made for a great base in a place where the PCs needed a base. But the friendly NPC sired children and grandchildren from his own daughters, living in incest.
The Players interested in playing through Alignment dilemmas decided that they would not accept his hospitality so the group decided to build their own base, solid and defensible but not nearly as strong as the NPC's.
. . . .
Inspired by the greatest non-BBEG NPC ever designed -- ALL PRAISE to Erik Mona -- I often include Balabar Smenk as a non-evil NPC who the Players really dislike and distrust as the MacGuffin or even a regular NPC to grate on the Players' sensibilities and morals. They want to kill him -- but they can't do it legally. ... They want to get away from him -- but he has info they need. ... They want turn him in to the police -- but they have no proof.
The final BBEG I actually did do the "shades of gray" to his evil plans, the players just haven't gotten that far yet. That's the ending of the game. Just need something for in between. Thanks for your input.
The PCs could catch one of your BBEG's minions doing something easily seen as evil, then find out the minion is a double agent working for some 'good' agency. The minion had to do the evil to maintain his cover. Do the PCs believe the minion? Do they help? Are they willing to do questionable things to maintain cover?
Then you can further frustrate/complicate things by making the minion a triple agent or have him convert to the BBEG.
Some Classic Ideas:
Flip the Script:
Your PCs have been working hard to stop what they perceive to be evil but at some point they discover that all of their efforts has been aiding the true evil and the PCs themselves have caused untold damage throughout their adventures. How will they remedy what they've done?
Quandary:
Your PCs discover that someone has been committing terrible atrocities in an effort to cure some plague or disease that causes the death and suffering of thousands. Is the goal worth the sacrifice?
Dilemma:
Your PCs agree to aid a tribe of people in recovering their homeland from an invading tyrant only to find that the land is being used for some noble purpose. Whose side do they take?
Better of Two Evils:
Often times in life a choice must be made between two undesirable options. Do you put a tyrant on the throne or give control to the corrupt religious authority? A choice must be made to avoid a revolution that would result in thousands of innocent deaths.
Fanatic:
In an attempt to rid the land of evil an inquisition has resulted in many unnecessary deaths. Though criminal activity is low and the roads are safe, the people of the land live in fear. This works best of one of the PCs is of the religious order that is performing the inquisiton.
First, observe which of your Players would really enjoy this and which would really hate it. Some Players (such as me) really love this kind of stuff in their D&D. Some REALLY Hate Alignment stuff in their game.
Be cognizant of which PC or PCs you throw these moral dilemmas at and make sure they're being run by a Player who will have fun struggling through the mire.
like i said earlier, half of the players joined this group when they heard i was running PF, but the original group had already decided that they would be interested in the type of game i wanted to run and they told the new players this too, and they sat at the table anyways. in my opinion, they can deal with it.
also, they may come to like it. a lot of the things im putting in the game i have either come up with myself or some things i have taken from past games that i really liked and implemented them because i think some of the other players/future gms will like them and also incorporate them into the game.
the players that have sat down that werent part of our original group i think have never really played this type of game before with these different aspects and i think they may like them, if not, let them game the way they want to have fun. but know this, neither myself nor the other gms are gonna run straight kick in the door style games, thats just how we role.
just being informative just so yall know, not trying to be rude or anything ;) thanks for all the help so far, keep this going though, i love it.
Here's a fun one, get the PC's in a position so that they're faced with needing to play double agent to get access to some important part of BBEG's plan. The more they stick to their cover, tempt them with access to even more sensitive parts of BBEG's plan for maintaining their cover. Now you got your PC's playing chicken with their chances of foiling the plan.
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On a much more basic level:
Make the PCs choose between doing the right thing and... stuff. A big part of the game is about acquiring stuff. Making the PCs forgo stuff in favor of doing a good deed may prove a more difficult dilemma than you think. For example:
However, the device in question was built to save a soul from damnation. In order to fulfill that purpose, most of it needs to be sacrificed. The purpose of the device is obvious, but it's workings are not, so the party must decide whether to take some of the treasure, or all of it, or none of it, while also deciding whether to activate the device at all. The soul it is supposed to save is that of a dubious character, who needs to atone for many sins.
The ultimate way to challenge the PCs is create a situation where a PC has the chance to sacrifice himself for a greater good. I'm not talking about a tough fight, either - I'm talking about a situation that will more than likely result in death, but will accomplish something good or save someone else's life (or many lives). Just make sure that if someone does take the bait, you reward the player in some fashion.