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I'm running a group through curse of the crimson throne Adventure path and I've never DM'd before. I'm using all pathfinder material, no outside sources. I have the cr to exp award chart in the monster manual so I know I'm giving out correct exp awards for the crs i assign the encounters.
My question is that if the heroes are fighting 4 cr 1 creatures, what is the CR or EL for the encounter? And how do you calculate this?
I calculated this by making it a Cr 2 encounter because the Mob's in that encounter did almost no dmg to the players and were taken down within 3-4 turns of combat.
Some rooms and areas in the adventure have EL ratings I'm guessing this stands for Encounter Level, for the entire area? Does EL have anything to do with the pcs exp awards?
A example would be the encounter with some vampire spawn during the second adventure. There are two possible encounters for their location.
The first one is listed as just one vampire spawn. He is the guard outside the lair while 3 others inside sleep.
Vampire Spawn Cr 4
hp 29 MM 253
The next is listed with similar stats.
Vampire Spawn(4) Cr 4
hp 29 MM 253
In this encounter it specifies that there are 4 vampire spawn possible for this encounter. Since the fight with the guard outside wakes the other 3 inside i can only imagine that if you are fighting the guard you basically start combat with all 4 vampires thus making the second encounter the one to calculate exp award.
now again my question is how do i do this? We have moved past this and for this encounter i awarded them a cr 7 encounter because the base cr for one vampire spawn is 4 so i just added 1 more cr for each additional creature.
They have progressed from the first adventure to almost finished with the 3rd so i can only guess I'm doing my calculation correctly or close enough seeing as their levels seem on par with the challenges thus far aside from some very challenging ones designed to be very dangerous. They are also currently level 8-9 and just started on the last dungeon. the adventure says that 10 is the last level playable in this adventure.
I feel they will be fine with the way I've been doing it so far but I'd really like to know if I'm doing it right!
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Per table 12-3 on page 398 of the Core Rulebook (CRB), four creatures are equal to the base CR+4. (Note, this formula might not scale well, especially for low CR creatures, less than one). Encounter level (ECL) and challenge rating (CR) (with respect to multiple opponents) is not always an exact science. It is just a guide to help you determine the appropriate challenge to use against your players, using their APL (average party level) as a base. If you want to strictly follow the CRB, you can just use table 12-2 and 12-3 to determine the total ECL. The biggest headache occurs when you have a mix of multiple creatures of various CR's. The best thing is to match them up, replacing pairs (or more) with an equivalent single CR, and continue this process until you wind up with a single ECL number. Then you can determine XP's.
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Per table 12-3 on page 398 of the Core Rulebook (CRB), four creatures are equal to the base CR+4. (Note, this formula might not scale well, especially for low CR creatures, less than one). Encounter level (ECL) and challenge rating (CR) (with respect to multiple opponents) is not always an exact science. It is just a guide to help you determine the appropriate challenge to use against your players, using their APL (average party level) as a base. If you want to strictly follow the CRB, you can just use table 12-2 and 12-3 to determine the total ECL. The biggest headache occurs when you have a mix of multiple creatures of various CR's. The best thing is to match them up, replacing pairs (or more) with an equivalent single CR, and continue this process until you wind up with a single ECL number. Then you can determine XP's.
Thank you. I guess i've been giving them somewhat off experience thus far but they seem to be keeping up with the adventure thus far.
To preface this whole post, you're going to have to keep in mind that although Curse of the Crimson Throne is part of the Pathfinder setting, it doesn't use the new Pathfinder *system*. You'll notice the Pathfinder system uses Combat Maneuvers and Combat Maneuver Defense, but the CotCT stat blocks won't have that. In addition, the book will reference common monsters from the D&D Monster Manual, compared to current adventure paths which reference monsters from sources like Pathfinder's Bestiary.
Also, Curse of the Crimson Throne is awesome, and my group is running Pathfinder system characters through it. The DM is just making tweaks where appropriate.
Anyway, in Pathfinder system itself, every *Individual* monster has a Challenge Rating, while every group of monsters (even groups of one member) have an Encounter Level (EL).
For single monsters, the EL of the encounter is the same as the CR for the monster.
For groups of monsters, the CRs of the monsters interact to create a higher EL. Take the XP awarded for each monster (for example, 400 each for four CR 1 monsters) and add them up; you will notice that is the XP awarded for a CR 5 encounter. Four CR 1 creatures are EL 5, and an 'Average' challenge for a 5th-level party.
Traps also add in the same way. You can have a fairly high level monster hiding behind a minor trap, or for the same EL, you can have a full-power monster.
Still, Encounter Level is just an approximation for the challenge the party should face. A party of four Paladins might have an easier time in a fight with a demon than a standard adventuring party, even when both parties are the same level. Alternately, sometimes encounters end up too easy or too hard because players come in with an ingenious plan, because they forget some vital point, or because the dice are just working too well or too poorly for one side (ever have a night where you don't roll above 5?).
As long as the fight isn't unfairly easy or hard because of the structure, I'd say don't mess with the experience too much. If the players roll really well against a vampire and kill it quickly, they beat it fair and square. If they use divination to find out they'll be fighting a fire elemental and lure it above a rickety river bridge and dispatch it quickly, that's deviously good thinking. On the other hand, if the party walks out of a Huge stone golem's room to the other side of a 5-foot hallway that it can't pass through and they dispatch it flawlessly without danger, that's deserving of a CR reduction.
[Edited for inconsistent thinking]
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On the other hand, if the party walks out of a Huge stone golem's room to the other side of a 5-foot hallway that it can't pass through and they dispatch it flawlessly without danger, that's deserving of a CR reduction
I humbly disagree. If the players use superior tactics to overcome a challenge, they should be rewarded for that. XP's are not just a reward for beating the snot out of a monster, it also reflects the learning curve of tactics whether they be spells, melee weapons, skills, etc. I think they should still earn full XP.
On the other hand, if the party walks out of a Huge stone golem's room to the other side of a 5-foot hallway that it can't pass through and they dispatch it flawlessly without danger, that's deserving of a CR reductionI humbly disagree. If the players use superior tactics to overcome a challenge, they should be rewarded for that. XP's are not just a reward for beating the snot out of a monster, it also reflects the learning curve of tactics whether they be spells, melee weapons, skills, etc. I think they should still earn full XP.
If you disagree with that, then you should have sees the original post before I caught myself!
Anyhow, in my opinion, the CR system assumes that the monsters are encountered in environments that benefit them. Lots of monsters will be encountered in the dark, swimming creatures will be encountered in the water, etcetera. If a monster is placed in an area that it can't maneuver around in, I don't see that as too much different from encountering a swimming creature in an area that it is suffocation in, or a guardsman whose CR is reduced because he is drunk (Sickened).
While I would be fine with the fire elemental example because the PCs are using their wiles to change the actual battlefield, taking advantage of a five-foot hallway that is right there lacks too much flourish for me to comfortably award full experience for. It reminds me of videogames where there is part of the battlefield that a boss can't hit you with his attack patterns, and can be taken out by spamming a minor missile attack.
All the same, I'm willing to respect future disagreement.
Hmmm. If you are using D&D 3.5 experience rewards and D&D 3.5 experience advancement, I wonder if there is any strangeness that would occur while using Pathfinder system for the rest of it?
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Hmmm. If you are using D&D 3.5 experience rewards and D&D 3.5 experience advancement, I wonder if there is any strangeness that would occur while using Pathfinder system for the rest of it?
I actually wasn't aware until i read the tables that there was a cr adjustment for environment and conditions. I just kinda thought that if something or someone had a condition or disadvantage it was already added in when you get to them in the adventure.
So far in the adventuring path there have been a mix of favorable and normal, no unfavorable (adleast in my opinion ). As far as the difference between the adventures being 3.5 and the system being pathfinder. I'm doing the same thing as your dm.
Making the adjustments and applying them. The only thing i hate doing is calculating cmd and cmb for every creature and removing skills and moving skill points around for skills and sometimes feats that don't exist anymore. ( I was reallllly annoyed when i had to redo several wererats )
But overall it hasn't been so hard that I'd say i hate it. My players are progressing at a rate that i think they are able to handle the adventure thus far. I'm giving out a few advantages also. Background related items and maybe a exstra feat here or there if someones idea or story really seems to award such an action.
They also have a 28 point buy, pathfinders epic is 25. 3 points isn't a lot but it could be plus 1 to a save.
I know in another adventure path, there's a few places where they automatically add in special circumstances. One character is always Sickened, and has a -1 CR. Another has a special curse that applies to particular creatures and lowered hit points, also a -1 CR. Yet, since CotCT is an earlier adventure path, I don't know if they would have already begun using that design ethic or not (not to mention different authors). I assume they'd make some special note of it, at least, and I don't remember any specially disadvantaged enemies as a player.
By the way, the
They also have a 28 point buy, pathfinders epic is 25. 3 points isn't a lot but it could be plus 1 to a save.
The point buys in 3.5 and pathfinder work differently (In 3.5 all scores start at 8 and if you want to not have a penalty in a score you have to spend 2 points on it, in pathfinder all scores start at 10, and you can get 'extra' points by making a given score lower then 10)
a 28 point 3.5 buy is roughly the equivalent of a 15-16 point pathfinder buy (or standard fantasy)...