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What's funny, Lynora, is that you and NobodysWife are remarkably similar in your, "Don't throw me into that bucket!" attitudes!
She read my post, and while she agrees with me about AD far more than you do, she was horrifically offended that I'd implied (unintentionally) that the only reason she went for me was the mohawk and leather jacket, when in reality she didn't meet me until I was already that way.
So yeah, "Don't you DARE generalize me!" is a common theme.
EDIT: Naked again? I didn't think I had another meeting this afternoon. Better check...
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...why am i being burned in effigy?OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
Answered that for you. And seriously, my choices were you, me, or Lynora. Who did YOU think I was going to choose?
Gotta burn SOMETHING. It's what's done.
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Going to try pulling an all-nighter to adjust sleep schedule.
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I will gladly burn in effigy if it keeps lynoras life size papercraft whole and unburned.
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...why am i being burned in effigy?OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
Because I am not your animal companion!
Sorry, dude.
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...why am i being burned in effigy?OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
Because I am not your animal companion!
Sorry, dude.
*sniff*
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OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
My time has come.
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Some women do like bad boys, possibly for all the reasons listed above, possibly due to a desire for Drama, which you don't get with nice guys. 'Mmnyeh, we went to Ikea and compared beige tablecloths for around two hours and then he lightly toasted me some falafels and was mildly affectionate' isn't something you can have a two-hour complaining session with your chums about, or maybe it is?
Some men like bad ladies, especially ones that really, really aren't very good for them on any level.
Halloa.
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...why am i being burned in effigy?OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
Why not? I vote as a sacrifice to our beloved Whedon and Brown.
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Freehold, I think my last response to NH pretty much addresses what you said too.
NH, yes, that's the issue. It's the generalization that's bad. If you add qualifiers, like some/many women or I've seen too many women who like bad boys or something like that. It's when you try to paint every woman with the same brush. Because with qualifiers, then we can discuss stuff like how women are socialized to believe that this is what romance looks like or that it's their job to 'save' this dude, which will totally work because it's true love! (Spoiler alert: it's not)
Conversely, I really have had a lot of issues with 'nice' guys who were anything but. And with guys who think they were nice but weren't really using the women like bad boys thing as an excuse for their lack of success with women. Which is the other half of this generalization problem. I know that this is not all guys. Most of my friends are male, primarily due to common interests, so I am not thinking that all guys are secret jerks. But some are. And that is honestly part of this idea. Which is why I think that it is toxic to both sides when used as a sweeping generalization. I do think it is important to separate a stereotype as what it is.
And yes, region may play a part in my experiences. I've spent most of my life in the midwest. So that's....yeah, that's a whole other rant. ;P
I don't disagree that this is a pattern. I just strongly disagree with the overly broad generalization. And with not calling out that there is a big problem with who gets to define 'nice' and 'bad' in these situations.
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OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
I know, right?!! Lol.
I am actually enjoying the chance to have an intelligent conversation on the subject. :)| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Freehold, I think my last response to NH pretty much addresses what you said too.
NH, yes, that's the issue. It's the generalization that's bad. If you add qualifiers, like some/many women or I've seen too many women who like bad boys or something like that. It's when you try to paint every woman with the same brush. Because with qualifiers, then we can discuss stuff like how women are socialized to believe that this is what romance looks like or that it's their job to 'save' this dude, which will totally work because it's true love! (Spoiler alert: it's not)
Conversely, I really have had a lot of issues with 'nice' guys who were anything but. And with guys who think they were nice but weren't really using the women like bad boys thing as an excuse for their lack of success with women. Which is the other half of this generalization problem. I know that this is not all guys. Most of my friends are male, primarily due to common interests, so I am not thinking that all guys are secret jerks. But some are. And that is honestly part of this idea. Which is why I think that it is toxic to both sides when used as a sweeping generalization. I do think it is important to separate a stereotype as what it is.
And yes, region may play a part in my experiences. I've spent most of my life in the midwest. So that's....yeah, that's a whole other rant. ;P
I don't disagree that this is a pattern. I just strongly disagree with the overly broad generalization. And with not calling out that there is a big problem with who gets to define 'nice' and 'bad' in these situations.
Well, I'll opine that one issue is that people have been hyper-sensitized to generalizations over the last generation or so. If I say, "Women find me witty," in my mind I am certainly not thinking to myself, "All women in the world in all situations find me witty," but rather, "I believe that many women I meet find me witty."
Yet we've entered a situation where if you make such a comment, you are immediately accosted with, "How dare you say that about all women? I'm not like that!"In my opinion, it makes communication more difficult because you have to be extremely careful to qualify every set you try to define. And yet I'm also going to agree with you insofar as people (especially middle-aged white males such as myself) have been using gross generalizations to abuse people for, quite literally, generations. So such specificity is probably a good idea.
So while I'd like to say, "Yes, I hate it when high school girls get attracted to the biggest jerks in class," I can understand and acknowledge your desire that I go with the far-more-accurate, "I hate it that some of my female friends in high school chose to date the biggest jerks in class even after I warned them not to." It's just quite the mouthful.
EDIT: And I'll admit, I find it a serious issue. From the repercussions I've seen, "Some of my female friends" is still far too many.
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Sure, there is worse in fantasy. Now find me one such book that has a) been marketed explicitly at teenagers and b) 20 M+ copies sold.harry potter.
Again, not really fantasy. But I am curious... who there is that terrible AND A PROTAGONIST?
Still waiting on an answer to this one, sir.
I know it's high on your Hateometer, but I really want to see how you justify the accusation that Harry Potter is anywhere within the cosmic ballpark of "as harmful as Twilight".
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Freehold, I think my last response to NH pretty much addresses what you said too.
NH, yes, that's the issue. It's the generalization that's bad. If you add qualifiers, like some/many women or I've seen too many women who like bad boys or something like that. It's when you try to paint every woman with the same brush. Because with qualifiers, then we can discuss stuff like how women are socialized to believe that this is what romance looks like or that it's their job to 'save' this dude, which will totally work because it's true love! (Spoiler alert: it's not)
Conversely, I really have had a lot of issues with 'nice' guys who were anything but. And with guys who think they were nice but weren't really using the women like bad boys thing as an excuse for their lack of success with women. Which is the other half of this generalization problem. I know that this is not all guys. Most of my friends are male, primarily due to common interests, so I am not thinking that all guys are secret jerks. But some are. And that is honestly part of this idea. Which is why I think that it is toxic to both sides when used as a sweeping generalization. I do think it is important to separate a stereotype as what it is.
And yes, region may play a part in my experiences. I've spent most of my life in the midwest. So that's....yeah, that's a whole other rant. ;P
I don't disagree that this is a pattern. I just strongly disagree with the overly broad generalization. And with not calling out that there is a big problem with who gets to define 'nice' and 'bad' in these situations.
Well, I'll opine that one issue is that people have been hyper-sensitized to generalizations over the last generation or so. If I say, "Women find me witty," in my mind I am certainly not thinking to myself, "All women in the world in all situations find me witty," but rather, "I believe that many women I meet find me witty."
Yet we've entered a situation where if you make such a comment, you are immediately accosted...
one of the first rants i ever wrote online (long before the internet looks like what it does now) went into this. In high school, we are around the guy you like when you are not. We know when he is dating you because your sister said no, we know when he is dating you on a particularly vile bet, we know when he is asking you out because you have a probably underserved reputation based on when you developed breasts. If we say hes a jerk, please listen. We may be jealous. Very much so. But it is unlikely that we are lying to you.
High school probably doesn't work like that now, but it did when I was growing up.
Sure, there is worse in fantasy. Now find me one such book that has a) been marketed explicitly at teenagers and b) 20 M+ copies sold.harry potter.Again, not really fantasy. But I am curious... who there is that terrible AND A PROTAGONIST?Still waiting on an answer to this one, sir.
I know it's high on your Hateometer, but I really want to see how you justify the accusation that Harry Potter is anywhere within the cosmic ballpark of "as harmful as Twilight".
who said anything about harmful? I was just talking penny dreadful levels of bad. Potter more that readily meets that criteria.
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Okay, so you're talking a measurement that's...
1. Completely different from the context of the entire rest of the conversation
and
2. Utterly subjective.
Gotcha.
Nonsensical, as usual, but gotcha.
who said anything about harmful?
The entire Twilight-based discussion that you brought HP into. It was all about how Twilight is terrible not primarily because of the horrid abuses of language, grammar, storytelling, and plot - which are still all true - but more because of the terrible messages it sends to its target audience, which is an age at which readers are already in their most malleable mental state and most susceptible to such influences.
Did you... somehow... miss that?
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Apparently it's "Old people buying gag gifts night" because there are entirely too many old people explaining their gag gifts to me.
Listen guy, I don't need to know why you're 75 and looking for toy airplanes and police officer costumes at Christmas, I'm not here to judge.
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Okay, so you're talking a measurement that's...
1. Completely different from the context of the entire rest of the conversation
and
2. Utterly subjective.
Gotcha.
Nonsensical, as usual, but gotcha.
who said anything about harmful?The entire Twilight-based discussion that you brought HP into. It was all about how Twilight is terrible not primarily because of the horrid abuses of language, grammar, storytelling, and plot - which are still all true - but more because of the terrible messages it sends to its target audience, which is an age at which readers are already in their most malleable mental state and most susceptible to such influences.
Did you... somehow... miss that?
I guess I did.
All I read was sissyl asking if there was anything worse than twilight that sold better. If there was some earlier conversation going in a different direction I skimmed/missed it.
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The "worse" in that was not "more poorly-made as a medium of entertainment", but "more harmful to its readers and society as a whole".
Hence her, Scint's, and my utterly perplexed reactions to your choice of response. Well, that and that at least Scint and I (I can't speak for Sissyl) disagree with you on HP being "penny dreadful" material, but that's just yet another Bizarro opinion I've learned to live with.
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I NEED A GAG GIFT!!! STAT!!!
EDIT: Because Now I'm depressed. (Definitely in Stage 2, heading quickly towards Stage 3.)
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The "worse" in that was not "bad as a medium of entertainment", but "more harmful to its readers and society as a whole".
I am no fan of twilight, but i have read far, far, FAR more objectionable material when I was in elementary school. If a penny dreadful of that quality is all it takes to get you (the general you, not orthos specifically) whipping out torches and pitchforks, be glad you didn't grow up in the 80s.
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Twilight's morality and the lessons its stories tell is a generational throwback to a time when that sort of thing was considered appropriate.
We know better now, and we've moved on as a society.
We would hope, therefore, that such things would no longer be welcome among most people in our culture.
Twilight not only proved us dreadfully wrong, in some of the scariest ways possible, but it did so in a way that many of the target audience - the people most vulnerable to the kind of stuff we thought we'd gotten away from that haunts that part of our cultural past - didn't realize what it was telling them. And it made the person writing this wretched stuff incredibly rich, to boot, which justified making yet more of it and fueling the damned cycle.
THAT is why Twilight is so hated, so reviled, and so dangerous. Because it takes something that we as a general society had mostly moved away from and learned, as a culture, was wrong and inappropriate, and reintroduces it into our society - at a young, impressionable, malleable, and vulnerable age - in a way that permeates their mindsets permanently. And in doing so put a LOT of young people many, many years back in cultural development.
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Stephenie Meyer set humanity back about 50 years with her 15 minutes of fame.
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But there are far more intellectually stimulating things to discuss than Twilight. For example, I can just sit here with my jaw open, drool pooling on the floor, and it will engage my brain in more critical thought.
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We aren't going to agree here.
Best to move on.
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The "worse" in that was not "bad as a medium of entertainment", but "more harmful to its readers and society as a whole".I am no fan of twilight, but i have read far, far, FAR more objectionable material when I was in elementary school. If a penny dreadful of that quality is all it takes to get you (the general you, not orthos specifically) whipping out torches and pitchforks, be glad you didn't grow up in the 80s.
Dude, I'm older than you are! I did grow up in the 80s. And I read the entire library! Well, okay, I read the whole children's section, and then the whole teen's section (that was pretty questionable letting a ten year old read that stuff cause it got pretty icky in some of those books) and then I read all the classic books my parents had at home, and then my mom convinced the cranky old librarian to let me check books out from the adult section because she was tired of hearing me whine about Dickens (Dickens is really bloody boring) and then I read through about three quarters of the history section before we moved away and I got to start all over at a newer, bigger library. I don't think I've read anything more objectionable than Twilight. As objectionable, yes. Not more.
We aren't going to agree here.
I know. That's what worries me. This shouldn't be something anyone disagrees on, unless they're a "pining for the '50s" nutjob, or a direct result of Meyers' brainwashing.
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One of these days, I'm going to cave and go full literary analysis on the negative effects of Twilight on society as a whole. ...but it would involve me having to actually read them again, and I'm not sure the greater good is worth that sacrifice.
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That stupid class I took last year on different schools of critical analysis did my brain no favors. I cannot turn it off anymore.
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...why am i being burned in effigy?OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
Because you're awesome?
Going to try pulling an all-nighter to adjust sleep schedule.
Oh, I remember doing that. I do not envy you. Good luck!
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Dude, I'm older than you are! I did grow up in the 80s.
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Oh, jeez. I am the worst at guessing ages.
I mean, it's only fair, I guess. People tend to assume I'm about twelve because I'm under 5'.
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We should play that game, based on messages, syntax and interests, guess your fellow FaWtL age.Dude, I'm older than you are! I did grow up in the 80s.
I'm already out then. I'm notoriously bad at guessing ages (I thought Scint was in college when I first met her, not a sophomore in high school) and my own age is clearly posted in my profile. >_>
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I'm already out then. I'm notoriously bad at guessing ages (I thought Scint was in college when I first met her, not a sophomore in high school) and my own age is clearly posted in my profile. >_>We should play that game, based on messages, syntax and interests, guess your fellow FaWtL age.Dude, I'm older than you are! I did grow up in the 80s.
In fairness, I had discovered the proper understanding of how to use the shift key and punctuation. Easy mistake.
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In other news, my economics curriculum binder is complete. Every chapter has been gone through and condensed into units; all worksheets and tests are pre-written and keyed.
So much time shall be saved next year!
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...why am i being burned in effigy?OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
It's Tuesday.
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It's Tuesday....why am i being burned in effigy?OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
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I NEED A GAG GIFT!!! STAT!!!
EDIT: Because Now I'm depressed. (Definitely in Stage 2, heading quickly towards Stage 3.)
An idea for one, or receive one?
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Uncanny Dodge
Oof. Glad he's okay.
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We should play that game, based on messages, syntax and interests, guess your fellow FaWtL age.Dude, I'm older than you are! I did grow up in the 80s.
I look young for my age, that is all that matters.
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It's Tuesday....why am i being burned in effigy?OMG! We're having a civil, intelligent discussion in FaWtL! Someone get the balloons, seltzer water, and a life-sized prop of Freehold to burn, surrounded by a phalanx of flying bicycles.
Because why not?
Hnn. Thought it was Thursday.
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Oh good, it's ten degrees, I wondered when it was going to get chilly.
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I have grown a beard.
Now I look older.
So much for black don't crack.