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<not undressed>
"I hate it when PCs buy their way out of situations."That's the point of spending money on preventatives. What this reads as to me is "I hate it when PCs don't let me torment them".
So Shiro put it well: "So, by your rules, we should just hole up and stop adventuring for 3 months every year. I guess that's what we'll do."In before "you all didn't do anything all winter, so the BBEG was able to execute all their plans unopposed. They had magic/NPC riches/something that allowed them to work through the cold. You should have braved the dangers while you had the chance."
This is a huge batch of red flags. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up walking out on this GM. I certainly already would have.
Shiro's going to work with him this week on just how stupid this is.
And since he's the only GM we have at the moment, we've been tolerating it for a while. But last session was just TOO over the top, so we're making it clear: Stop making us roll for everything, or we'll stop doing anything, and the campaign will grind to a boring halt as we camp for the winter.
I wish you all the best of luck on it, if he can be talked around all the better. My knee-jerk fear is just that he'll instead double down, and then try to "punish" you all by having something happen during all that downtime that "you could have prevented this if you just hadn't hid all winter" or something.
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<not undressed>
I wish you all the best of luck on it, if he can be talked around all the better. My knee-jerk fear is just that he'll instead double down, and then try to "punish" you all by having something happen during all that downtime that "you could have prevented this if you just hadn't hid all winter" or something."I hate it when PCs buy their way out of situations."That's the point of spending money on preventatives. What this reads as to me is "I hate it when PCs don't let me torment them".
So Shiro put it well: "So, by your rules, we should just hole up and stop adventuring for 3 months every year. I guess that's what we'll do."In before "you all didn't do anything all winter, so the BBEG was able to execute all their plans unopposed. They had magic/NPC riches/something that allowed them to work through the cold. You should have braved the dangers while you had the chance."
This is a huge batch of red flags. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up walking out on this GM. I certainly already would have.
Shiro's going to work with him this week on just how stupid this is.
And since he's the only GM we have at the moment, we've been tolerating it for a while. But last session was just TOO over the top, so we're making it clear: Stop making us roll for everything, or we'll stop doing anything, and the campaign will grind to a boring halt as we camp for the winter.
The good news is that he's not a jerk, and he's been extremely happy to have a group of strong roleplayers. And Shiro took that approach with him: "You're shutting people down."
And it's true -- After the first couple of sessions, I was thinking of my cleric as a cross between Marin Luther and Joan of Arc. After having to make (and fail) so many knowledge and interpersonal rolls, now I think of her more as Paris Hilton.
And I never wanted to roleplay Paris Hilton.
(My cleric always used to be the first to speak to strangers, in spite of a +2 Persuasion as opposed to the bard's +7. After a series of sessions where my die rolls just to casually talk to people were 1, 3, 4, 1, 7, 2, 3, 1, she decided not to talk to people any more.)
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A roll should only be made when you're trying to do something out of the ordinary. The whole, "When a failure has consequences," doesn't work for me because screwing up a wedding certainly has massive social consequences, but it isn't something any trained cleric would ever do without extenuating circumstances.
I would add the caveat of "depending on the campaign". If the campaign world hinges itself on societal structure and intrigue, then the performance of the officiant can be considered an extenuating circumstance in and of itself. Not a question of "not failing" but "just how good was the performance" which itself can parley to being used to getting hired for some other shindig for one of the guests which leads to blah blah blah blah.
Which very well may fall under your definition of extenuating circumstances as well, just in a different direction than your example.
But again, I'm also the DM that doesn't work with auto failures or auto successes in a d20 system. I believe that a 5% chance of success for a level 1 commoner to hit an AC 45 opponent is far too generous. Not impossible, just not 5% likely.
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I got our trailer set up for the year.
I'm ready to go!
A roll should only be made when you're trying to do something out of the ordinary. The whole, "When a failure has consequences," doesn't work for me because screwing up a wedding certainly has massive social consequences, but it isn't something any trained cleric would ever do without extenuating circumstances.
I would add the caveat of "depending on the campaign". If the campaign world hinges itself on societal structure and intrigue, then the performance of the officiant can be considered an extenuating circumstance in and of itself. Not a question of "not failing" but "just how good was the performance" which itself can parley to being used to getting hired for some other shindig for one of the guests which leads to blah blah blah blah.
Which very well may fall under your definition of extenuating circumstances as well, just in a different direction than your example.
But again, I'm also the DM that doesn't work with auto failures or auto successes in a d20 system. I believe that a 5% chance of success for a level 1 commoner to hit an AC 45 opponent is far too generous. Not impossible, just not 5% likely.
No; it's far more:
"You stumble upon an old graveyard. From the holy symbols, it looks like most of the dead were worshippers of Corellon (my cleric's god).""I say a prayer for the dead."
"Roll Knowledge: Religion."
"3."
"Everybody? Vinara steps into the graveyard and starts rambling on about how all the dead should be thankful for their condition, because otherwise they'd probably be living out their worthless lives way out here in the boonies."
Humiliating the PCs for humiliation's sake.
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A roll should only be made when you're trying to do something out of the ordinary. The whole, "When a failure has consequences," doesn't work for me because screwing up a wedding certainly has massive social consequences, but it isn't something any trained cleric would ever do without extenuating circumstances.
I would add the caveat of "depending on the campaign". If the campaign world hinges itself on societal structure and intrigue, then the performance of the officiant can be considered an extenuating circumstance in and of itself. Not a question of "not failing" but "just how good was the performance" which itself can parley to being used to getting hired for some other shindig for one of the guests which leads to blah blah blah blah.
Which very well may fall under your definition of extenuating circumstances as well, just in a different direction than your example.
But again, I'm also the DM that doesn't work with auto failures or auto successes in a d20 system. I believe that a 5% chance of success for a level 1 commoner to hit an AC 45 opponent is far too generous. Not impossible, just not 5% likely.
No; it's far more:
"You stumble upon an old graveyard. From the holy symbols, it looks like most of the dead were worshippers of Corellon (my cleric's god)."
"I say a prayer for the dead."
"Roll Knowledge: Religion."
"3."
"Everybody? Vinara steps into the graveyard and starts rambling on about how all the dead should be thankful for their condition, because otherwise they'd probably be living out their worthless lives way out here in the boonies."Humiliating the PCs for humiliation's sake.
Sounds like they need to play with my brothers, they can take turns being a~*+@~&s to each other.
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Sounds like they need to play with my brothers, they can take turns being a@$&%+$s to each other.
Well, therein lies the fundamental frustration with him and why we're having an intervention this week. He wants good roleplay, and enjoys it when the PCs do things that are really epic. We managed to turn a simple throwaway encounter into a monthslong story arc where my cleric considered it her sacred duty to return a banshee's remains to her parents' farm, literally battling the forces of darkness the entire way.
It was an amazing story arc.
Yet at the end, I had to tell her parents about their daughter's death. I rolled a 3 on Persuasion, sending them into paroxysms of grief. The bard had to convince them I wasn't a horrible person. Then I conducted the funeral and I think I got a 5 on Knowledge: Religion and horrified the townsfolk to the point that I'm no longer welcome in that town.
In my native country. In the religion I've followed since childhood. Because dice are that way. It was an incredible downer to what was otherwise a character-defining chapter.
The GM thinks that the rules force him to call for die rolls. We fail more than half the time. He thinks that means there should be consequences. And we're encouraged to never try to accomplish anything.
hmm. This comes too close to some negative experiences I have had at the table on both sides of the screen for me. I had a house rule that covered this pretty well that looked a lot likeI have heard this argument before with respect to 5e and skills, as well as die rolls. Not that similar arguments were not made from 3.x and onward. Not sure when we will get to the happy medium with respect to rolling dice for skills or what that will look like.
Also this is a fantasy gaming world, not the Smithsonian with dice and virgin beverages.
For me, it's simple: "Is this an unusual or arduous circumstance, or is it just something the PC would have frequently done on a day-to-day basis, and therefore no roll is required?"
Very much the "take 10 rule" except I don't need a number.
Selling stuff to a local merchant at stated book price? No Appraise nor Bargaining roll needed.
Visiting your home town in winter? No Survival roll needed.
You have levels of cleric and you're performing basic wedding or funeral rites? No Knowledge: Religion roll required.
A roll should only be made when you're trying to do something out of the ordinary. The whole, "When a failure has consequences," doesn't work for me because screwing up a wedding certainly has massive social consequences, but it isn't something any trained cleric would ever do without extenuating circumstances.
I've said it many times, but it bears repeating: The best campaign I ever ran was Rise of the Runelords, and the best sessions I ran for that campaign were the ones where the dice never hit the table.
Die rolling is a net negative experience for players. Don't ask for it unless something unusual is happening.
I would add the caveat of "depending on the campaign". If the campaign world hinges itself on societal structure and intrigue, then the performance of the officiant can be considered an extenuating circumstance in and of itself. Not a question of "not failing" but "just how good was the performance" which itself can parley to being used to getting hired for some other shindig for one of the guests which leads to blah blah blah blah.
this, but even then that lead to a few arguements/debates.
<not undressed>
I wish you all the best of luck on it, if he can be talked around all the better. My knee-jerk fear is just that he'll instead double down, and then try to "punish" you all by having something happen during all that downtime that "you could have prevented this if you just hadn't hid all winter" or something."I hate it when PCs buy their way out of situations."That's the point of spending money on preventatives. What this reads as to me is "I hate it when PCs don't let me torment them".
So Shiro put it well: "So, by your rules, we should just hole up and stop adventuring for 3 months every year. I guess that's what we'll do."In before "you all didn't do anything all winter, so the BBEG was able to execute all their plans unopposed. They had magic/NPC riches/something that allowed them to work through the cold. You should have braved the dangers while you had the chance."
This is a huge batch of red flags. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up walking out on this GM. I certainly already would have.
Shiro's going to work with him this week on just how stupid this is.
And since he's the only GM we have at the moment, we've been tolerating it for a while. But last session was just TOO over the top, so we're making it clear: Stop making us roll for everything, or we'll stop doing anything, and the campaign will grind to a boring halt as we camp for the winter.
The good news is that he's not a jerk, and he's been extremely happy to have a group of strong roleplayers. And Shiro took that approach with him: "You're shutting people down."
And it's true -- After the first couple of sessions, I was thinking of my cleric as a cross between Marin Luther and Joan of Arc. After having to make (and fail) so many knowledge and interpersonal rolls, now I think of her more as Paris Hilton.
And I never wanted to roleplay Paris Hilton.
((My cleric always used to be the first to speak to strangers, in spite of a +2 Persuasion as opposed to the bard's +7. After a series of sessions where my die rolls just to casually talk to people were 1, 3, 4, 1, 7, 2, 3, 1, she decided not to talk to people any more.)
A night of truly awful rolls. From what I know of 5e bad rolls will screw you over just as badly as in any other edition, perhaps moreso due to the way skills work. The net success vs net failure thing that 4e tried(I think?) did an okay-ish job of addressing this, it was the one thing 4e did that I was interested in and I don't know if we will ever see it explored again. The hardliner in me wants to point out that players never complain when the DM rolls like this, but I have also seen people leave the game forever because of rolls just like this in their third ever game.
A night of truly awful rolls. From what I know of 5e bad rolls will screw you over just as badly as in any other edition, perhaps moreso due to the way skills work. The net success vs net failure thing that 4e tried(I think?) did an okay-ish job of addressing this, it was the one thing 4e did that I was interested in and I don't know if we will ever see it explored again. The hardliner in me wants to point out that players never complain when the DM rolls like this, but I have also seen people leave the game forever because of rolls just like this in their third ever game.
OMG. If he rolled for every shopkeep to see whether they could communicate with us and he rolled like that we'd scream.
We have to roll to set up camp. To cook dinner. To use the bathroom. To try to buy mundane supplies like rations and cold weather gear at the store. Want to do something? Make a roll.
None of the NPCs ever have to roll, and if they did, we'd beg for them to stop having to roll as well.
A night of truly awful rolls. From what I know of 5e bad rolls will screw you over just as badly as in any other edition, perhaps moreso due to the way skills work. The net success vs net failure thing that 4e tried(I think?) did an okay-ish job of addressing this, it was the one thing 4e did that I was interested in and I don't know if we will ever see it explored again. The hardliner in me wants to point out that players never complain when the DM rolls like this, but I have also seen people leave the game forever because of rolls just like this in their third ever game.OMG. If he rolled for every shopkeep to see whether they could communicate with us and he rolled like that we'd scream.
We have to roll to set up camp. To cook dinner. To use the bathroom. To try to buy mundane supplies like rations and cold weather gear at the store. Want to do something? Make a roll.
None of the NPCs ever have to roll, and if they did, we'd beg for them to stop having to roll as well.
I have memories of a diceless aficionado attempting to do something like this during a game he was running as an object lesson and yeah....we all lost our minds. It didn't turn us all into diceless converts though.
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I have memories of a diceless aficionado attempting to do something like this during a game he was running as an object lesson and yeah....we all lost our minds. It didn't turn us all into diceless converts though.A night of truly awful rolls. From what I know of 5e bad rolls will screw you over just as badly as in any other edition, perhaps moreso due to the way skills work. The net success vs net failure thing that 4e tried(I think?) did an okay-ish job of addressing this, it was the one thing 4e did that I was interested in and I don't know if we will ever see it explored again. The hardliner in me wants to point out that players never complain when the DM rolls like this, but I have also seen people leave the game forever because of rolls just like this in their third ever game.OMG. If he rolled for every shopkeep to see whether they could communicate with us and he rolled like that we'd scream.
We have to roll to set up camp. To cook dinner. To use the bathroom. To try to buy mundane supplies like rations and cold weather gear at the store. Want to do something? Make a roll.
None of the NPCs ever have to roll, and if they did, we'd beg for them to stop having to roll as well.
You and Vanykrye put it rather well: If it's plot-relevant or significant, a roll is appropriate. If it's mundane minutiae and the PC is trained, let them do it. Otherwise you have to deal with a staggering number of failures that make the PCs look like socially inept clods.
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"I hate it when PCs buy their way out of situations."That's the point of spending money on preventatives. What this reads as to me is "I hate it when PCs don't let me torment them".
So Shiro put it well: "So, by your rules, we should just hole up and stop adventuring for 3 months every year. I guess that's what we'll do."In before "you all didn't do anything all winter, so the BBEG was able to execute all their plans unopposed. They had magic/NPC riches/something that allowed them to work through the cold. You should have braved the dangers while you had the chance."
This is a huge batch of red flags. I wouldn't be surprised if you end up walking out on this GM. I certainly already would have.
Shiro's going to work with him this week on just how stupid this is.
And since he's the only GM we have at the moment, we've been tolerating it for a while. But last session was just TOO over the top, so we're making it clear: Stop making us roll for everything, or we'll stop doing anything, and the campaign will grind to a boring halt as we camp for the winter.
Much as it pains me to admit it, I suspect that this may be another Runequest influence, where (depending how you play it) there are seasons for adventuring, harvesting, magic rituals to make sure the rain comes, and so on.
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Another year without making a pie for Pi day, take that, math!
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i've started three different posts in response to NH's 'poor GMing' posts, but they all just fell flat in the face of how awful the die rolls have been . . . .
1) where's the advantage system that is such a hallmark of 5e?
2) where is the sliding scale of critical success / success / failure / critical failure from PF2?
3) why is there no derivation from the old 3.5 feat Knowledge Devotion, converted to different kinds of checks?
4) is there no 'target DC / EASY check / HARD check' scale from ICRPG?
5) there isn't even a tiny hint of the 'skill challenge' methodology from 4e?
i'm a trained minister, and i've been to a few weddings and funerals where the religious "official" bungled things, and i've performed a few ceremonial catastrophes of my own, but if training, equipment, familiar territory, known persons of interest, and adventurous narrative (as an in-game goal) have no positive impact on neither the difficulty nor the ultimate results of any given check . . . . ugh.
i could see your cleric getting no compliments on the homily given, or the scrambled 'order of services', or "we could tell you were hungover while you were running the show" with poor die rolls, but if there's no way to "make the save" in a given situation . . . . Shiro has it right, but only in part -- don't stay home during the winter; just stay home.
i've gotten farther along in the synthesis of game systems i use at my own table, and i believe your current GM would greatly benefit from using any or all of the things implied by my five earlier questions . . . .
good luck with finding a way to save that game, NH. i hope it turns around quickly.
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And I never wanted to roleplay Paris Hilton
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i've started three different posts in response to NH's 'poor GMing' posts, but they all just fell flat in the face of how awful the die rolls have been . . . .
1) where's the advantage system that is such a hallmark of 5e?
2) where is the sliding scale of critical success / success / failure / critical failure from PF2?
3) why is there no derivation from the old 3.5 feat Knowledge Devotion, converted to different kinds of checks?
4) is there no 'target DC / EASY check / HARD check' scale from ICRPG?
5) there isn't even a tiny hint of the 'skill challenge' methodology from 4e?i'm a trained minister, and i've been to a few weddings and funerals where the religious "official" bungled things, and i've performed a few ceremonial catastrophes of my own, but if training, equipment, familiar territory, known persons of interest, and adventurous narrative (as an in-game goal) have no positive impact on neither the difficulty nor the ultimate results of any given check . . . . ugh.
i could see your cleric getting no compliments on the homily given, or the scrambled 'order of services', or "we could tell you were hungover while you were running the show" with poor die rolls, but if there's no way to "make the save" in a given situation . . . . Shiro has it right, but only in part -- don't stay home during the winter; just stay home.
i've gotten farther along in the synthesis of game systems i use at my own table, and i believe your current GM would greatly benefit from using any or all of the things implied by my five earlier questions . . . .
good luck with finding a way to save that game, NH. i hope it turns around quickly.
good questions. Some VERY good.
What is ICRPG again?
I have also always wondered if we should not have incorporated some l5r stuff with free raises and the like, and treat natural 20s like exploding dice.
What is ICRPG again?Index Card RPG.
So, basically, Fate.
Why am I still awake? Wait, don't answer that...
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I finally found a job after 7 months of looking, and it's been eating up most of my waking hours in some way or another. Hopefully, I'll be adjusted to the hours and physical labor soon, and will be back to regular posting.
Oh, sweet summer child...
Why am I still awake? Wait, don't answer that...
We all ask ourselves that question.
I finally found a job after 7 months of looking, and it's been eating up most of my waking hours in some way or another. Hopefully, I'll be adjusted to the hours and physical labor soon, and will be back to regular posting.Oh, sweet summer child...
Everytime.
That reminds me I need to do my taxes already.
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Teensy Valeros turned nine yesterday.
We spent the day at the Perot Museum (excellent children's science and natural history museum here in Dallas), came home and had burgers and sweet potato fries and a four-tier chocolate fudge cake. (To be fair, I used the miniature cake tins, so although it was ridiculously high, it was actually not a large cake.)
I wore my Pi Day earrings, with a slice of key lime pie earring on one ear and a pi symbol earring on the other, because math rules all the parts of the universe that aren't governed by chaos. And pie.
There, Freehold, I said it.
We're technically on Spring Break, but as I never finished writing my progress reports, guess how I'm going to be spending the next two days? Also taking Val to the library to research Ancient Rome for his end-of-year project (in Montessori, the big transition years are 3rd grade and 6th grade, and you bump up to a new classroom in 4th and 7th), and we're hoping to pick up some foam to make him lorica segmentata and a helmet for his presentation.
U.S. taxes are a hoot.
Since we owe money this year, our accountant recommended that I withhold an extra $5200. I went in to my HR system and set it to withhold an extra $200 per paycheck, which I figured was "close enough".
So of course I get my first paycheck after the change and it's withheld an extra $400. What the heck?
Turns out there are two separate checkboxes: "Married" and "Married filing jointly". I'd previously had the "Married" checkbox checked, which was why it wasn't withholding enough taxes. Checking the "Married filing jointly" checkbox made it withhold almost exactly the correct amount for the taxes I owed this year.
Because multiple "Married" checkboxes is the way the IRS rolls.
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For the record, our GM responded with a very polite email acknowledging everything we'd said: He'd noticed that people were shutting down and there was a whole lot of, "I do nothing," going on, and as soon as Shiro brought up that it was the rolling that was causing it, he recognized that that was very likely the cause.
So he's said that he's going to make a solid effort to reduce die rolling for trivial stuff.
All that's left is to find out what he considers "trivial".
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I wore my Pi Day earrings, with a slice of key lime pie earring on one ear and a pi symbol earring on the other, because math rules all the parts of the universe that aren't governed by chaos. And pie.
There, Freehold, I said it.
Rule logarithm and log tan rule all!
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We have news on the car front, and it's kind of funny to see how strong my biases run.
After the Utter Fail at the Honda dealership down south, Shiro came up for dinner and we swung by the Honda dealership near our house. The woman who helped us claimed to be a relatively new salesperson. Although they don't keep new cars on the lot (they're a tiny place so they pre-sell new cars before they arrive). She quoted the exact same price (MSRP + $1300). Shiro explained why he'd walked away from the previous dealership and she responded with the usual, "Oh, we don't do dealer markups here."
We took her number, she took Shiro's, and none of us expected to ever hear from her again, because I had more faith in her ability to actually listen to what her customer was saying. "Oh, if I tack on the dealer markup he's going to walk, so I shouldn't waste my time."
Not necessarily more honest, but more willing to hear the customer.
She called Shiro yesterday and set up an appointment for him to test drive and possibly pick up the car this Saturday.
I really want to believe that she actually listened, and the price she quoted will be the price she charges him.
Unfortunately, car dealership. I suspect Shiro will "waste" a drive up here, but we'll make reservations for Trader Vic's so his trip will not have been in vain.
Time will tell.
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You know what's fun about trying to help my squirrel-brained son work on the rough draft of his research project?
Not a damned thing.
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You know what's fun about trying to help my squirrel-brained son work on the rough draft of his research project?
Not a damned thing.
Next time you see Impus Minor, ask him about our stargazing trip to Yosemite. Apparently getting surrounded by a pack of hungry coyotes wasn't nearly the worst part of it...
So, basically, Fate.What is ICRPG again?Index Card RPG.
mmm. Thank you.
I wore my Pi Day earrings, with a slice of key lime pie earring on one ear and a pi symbol earring on the other, because math rules all the parts of the universe that aren't governed by chaos. And pie.
There, Freehold, I said it.
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OMSG, We have been sitting here for an hour and 45 minutes just researching and writing ONE. SPOCKING. PARAGRAPH.
He got sent home with the assignment over the break because he'd had over a month to do his nine-paragraph rough draft in class, and all he'd accomplished in that time was the introduction and Defense. I thought we'd start with religion today because it's the easiest to knock out, but he cannot write a whole Spocking sentence without jumping up out of his seat to do something else.
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OMSG, We have been sitting here for an hour and 45 minutes just researching and writing ONE. SPOCKING. PARAGRAPH.
He got sent home with the assignment over the break because he'd had over a month to do his nine-paragraph rough draft in class, and all he'd accomplished in that time was the introduction and Defense. I thought we'd start with religion today because it's the easiest to knock out, but he cannot write a whole Spocking sentence without jumping up out of his seat to do something else.
When Impus Major was that age I had to use my belt to belt him down in his chair. Otherwise absolutely identical behavior.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Not my ideal scenario - I'd prefer permanent non-DST - but better than the current arrangement. Let's do this. Death to time-changes.
OMSG, We have been sitting here for an hour and 45 minutes just researching and writing ONE. SPOCKING. PARAGRAPH.
He got sent home with the assignment over the break because he'd had over a month to do his nine-paragraph rough draft in class, and all he'd accomplished in that time was the introduction and Defense. I thought we'd start with religion today because it's the easiest to knock out, but he cannot write a whole Spocking sentence without jumping up out of his seat to do something else.
I would help if I could.
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And it continues...
...Impus Major's significant assignments are due Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays, so he wants to move the family game from Tuesday night to Thursday night. Since he has no classes on Friday, that should be great, right?
Nope. Just this week he has a take-home test and a written essay, due on a day that he has no school.
I'd love to take these teachers and randomly throughout the summer say, "No, sorry. You have an unscheduled work day today, and your pay will be docked if you don't show up! Get to it!"
If you don't have class session that day, you can't have assignments due that day. It's common courtesy, and should be common sense at a community college where a significant percentage of the students is people who have REAL jobs and need a reliable schedule from their teachers.
|
FOR CAKE AND CHAOS
I wore my Pi Day earrings, with a slice of key lime pie earring on one ear and a pi symbol earring on the other, because math rules all the parts of the universe that aren't governed by chaos. And pie.
There, Freehold, I said it.
Chaos? Chaos? No! Order, Order!
I'll have a plain cheeseburger with fries and drink to go, please!
No cake for dessert?