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I think my favorite was Fortress of the Stone Giants, for the sheer number of players and GMs who pointed out that, given the number of giants and allies in the entry area, a full frontal assault would be suicide for any party.
Shenanigans! I'll just buff up Orik and send him through first.
Edit: No, it's the champion of Irori who shows off his bodily perfection via nudity, not Orik.
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There was another published adventure (3.5?) where the PCs were given every reason to hate the bad guys, but they were headed into the bad guy territory and they didn’t have to fight them. In this case though, the bad guys were a legitimate business and had guards, but were used to threats and simply waived them off unless things actually got violent, in which case they subdued to take slaves. Further, though they had the Macguffin/info, there are instances they’re willing to give it up, and the AP provides a half-dozen...Sounds like the 3.0/3.5 Forgotten Realms. The Red Wizards of Thay would sponsor mercantile activities in order to attempt to spread their influence.
That is exactly who it was!
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...There's this underlying concept that ALL creatures with an "E" in their bestiary entry are auto-fights, and I have a group of players who like to play a far more nuanced game, where diplomacy, negotiation, and (where necessary) intimidation all come into play.
The black-and-white, "They see you and attack! Roll initiative!" is just plain boring for my group.
EDIT: And it's disturbing just how many people believe that, "This is how D&D is played." The Fake Russian, who is a fantastic Runequest GM, ran a Pathfinder campaign and his entire approach was, "If you don't kill it, you don't get XP for it."
So whether it got away, you used Diplomacy, or you just chose mercy over murder, you lost XP. Murderhoboing was the only way to get XP and level up. Needless to say, the campaign disintegrated in barely a year because it wasn't how the players wanted to play, but it's how he felt Pathfinder was supposed to be run...
When I wrote the initial write up for Tarin's Crown, it was stuff like this that I was concerned about. If the players wanted to just kill everything, it would be difficult but possible. If they wanted to negotiate with the pirates, I tried to put enough information and opportunities for the GM to run that way to. It's what I always try to put into adventures I create: multiple ways and techniques through so the players decide where the action goes, not the GM or some ironclad railroad.
So I get where your coming from, NobodysHome. To me if there is a single solution without multiple ways through the story, it's an example of lazy adventure writing. No matter how skillfully or evocative that writing may be.
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...There's this underlying concept that ALL creatures with an "E" in their bestiary entry are auto-fights, and I have a group of players who like to play a far more nuanced game, where diplomacy, negotiation, and (where necessary) intimidation all come into play.
The black-and-white, "They see you and attack! Roll initiative!" is just plain boring for my group.
EDIT: And it's disturbing just how many people believe that, "This is how D&D is played." The Fake Russian, who is a fantastic Runequest GM, ran a Pathfinder campaign and his entire approach was, "If you don't kill it, you don't get XP for it."
So whether it got away, you used Diplomacy, or you just chose mercy over murder, you lost XP. Murderhoboing was the only way to get XP and level up. Needless to say, the campaign disintegrated in barely a year because it wasn't how the players wanted to play, but it's how he felt Pathfinder was supposed to be run...When I wrote the initial write up for Tarin's Crown, it was stuff like this that I was concerned about. If the players wanted to just kill everything, it would be difficult but possible. If they wanted to negotiate with the pirates, I tried to put enough information and opportunities for the GM to run that way to. It's what I always try to put into adventures I create: multiple ways and techniques through so the players decide where the action goes, not the GM or some ironclad railroad.
So I get where your coming from, NobodysHome. To me if there is a single solution without multiple ways through the story, it's an example of lazy adventure writing. No matter how skillfully or evocative that writing may be.
Fair.
We need multiple solutions to problems. Murderhoboing gets a lot of bad press, but...easy peasy diplomancy...se? can be just as bad, although it is often far more interesting.
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What are you guys doing, talking about playing Pathfinder, what kind of website do you think this is, anyway!
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Summer Co-worker (via text): I can help you, but my blower is broken
Me: You can have Rocko's
Summer Co-worker: I'll be there in five minutes!
Rocko (seeing I got a text): Are we getting help?
Me: Yes, but it's not going to be any easier for you.
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Summer Co-worker (via text): I can help you, but my blower is broken
Me: You can have Rocko's
Summer Co-worker: I'll be there in five minutes!
Rocko (seeing I got a text): Are we getting help?
Me: Yes, but it's not going to be any easier for you.
Must you be evil?
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"What if I make a holiday that combines Thanksgiving and Valentine's Day! It will be like Thanksgiving but instead of saying what you're thankful for everyone hands each other Valentine's! I'll call it.... Thanksgiving!!" - Tiny T-Rex's latest billion dollar idea.
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Speaking of poorly-thought-out critters, I'm looking at boggards right now.
A force of around 40 boggards seems nigh unstoppable.
Round 1:
(First 20 boggards): We delay until after the other 20 have gone
(Second 20 boggards): We all move within 30' of the enemy and croak. Make 20 Will saves!
Now you're shaken!
(First 20 boggards): Now we move in and croak! Make 20 Will saves!
Now you're frightened!
It's just one of those abilities that sounds really cool when you're dealing with ONE boggard, but even a small group of them (say 4-5) turns into an amazingly annoying series of saves...
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Yeah, and then they get destroyed after the 1d4 rounds is up and they can't do it again for an hour.
Debuffs you can't take advantage of aren't really gamebreaking. Sure you can throw levels of fighter or whatever on, but then it's not really the croak that's doing the work.
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Yeah, and then they get destroyed after the 1d4 rounds is up and they can't do it again for an hour.
Debuffs you can't take advantage of aren't really gamebreaking. Sure you can throw levels of fighter or whatever on, but then it's not really the croak that's doing the work.
Absolutely true. But my players hate that stuff with a passion. "OK. Make 10 saves. OK. You're all running away. Let's mark off the rounds. OK. You recover. Now you recover. Now you recover."
It's a lot of busywork that's just annoying for everyone. Yeah, I can have the boggards NOT croak, but then I get, "Why didn't they croak?"
And because, "It's annoying busywork," isn't an acceptable answer.
Just one of those creatures I hate running because their "big" ability isn't all that big, and my players complain about it. A lot.
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Well, I think I'm just going to make a quiet house rule that if the boggard has fewer hit dice than its target, then the target cannot get the Frightened condition. Fixes everything nicely. Big boggards are still scary. Little ones not so much.
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Must you be evil?Summer Co-worker (via text): I can help you, but my blower is broken
Me: You can have Rocko's
Summer Co-worker: I'll be there in five minutes!
Rocko (seeing I got a text): Are we getting help?
Me: Yes, but it's not going to be any easier for you.
How is that evil? I'm just recognizing where Rocko stands on the totem pole.
Rocko even acknowledged that that was for the best in the interest of getting done as soon as possible.
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A lot of this talk reminds me of the first time I encountered the one-way-only mentality, but it was from the other side, sort of. Me and my group at the time really only ever did homebrew material. We'd pick a ruleset and make everything else up as we went along.
The first time I was GMing a Shadowrun campaign, the players were... let's just say they were solving their problems with an excess of bullets. We were all having a great time, but it wasn't where I was expecting the campaign to go, and I felt that the campaign was heading towards a shootout that would not end well for the PCs. So I asked for advice on how to avoid that, looking for ways to redirect the PCs methods instead of probably killing them.
A nice, fun poster who saw himself as a veteran TRPGer was the only person to reply with any significance, but he couldn't do so without his obvious bias:
"Oh, that's Shadowrun. Overwhelming force from the authorities is really the only endpoint for what your PCs have done." He was adamant about not giving alternative solutions even after I maintained that I didn't want a shootout that would likely end the campaign (and potentially everyone's fun). It didn't matter to him. I explained that the game was a homebrew, and we were just using Shadowrun's rules and flavor, not the actual world from the source book. His reply was, "Then you're NOT plyaing Shadowrun!"
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Make one bigger and stronger than the rest as well, because his croak is more powerful.
LOL. I like it.
Well, it lets me actually use some decent tactics, because there's at least one "boss boggard" who has enough hit dice to frighten the PCs, so it's getting the little ones croaking their little brains out, then the big one trying to start a PC stampede and engaging the PCs who don't flee. That actually sounds like an exciting fight instead of a bunch of paperwork...
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I think this explains my beliefs as briefly as possible: I was not a very good GM until I realized that my job was not to lead the PCs down a path, dictate their actions, nor act as their foil.
*MY* job is simply to provide them with a rich, robust, believable world with which they can interact in any way in which they see fit. The repercussions are realistic and based on the NPCs' motivations, not a set formula.
Since I took that approach, I have had multiple people tell me I'm "the best GM they've ever had", a compliment I take very, very seriously.
So when an AP provides a single path, single solution, and either ignores or out-and-out punishes PCs who try to do anything other than the expected, I get frustrated with that AP.
Just tell me what the situation is; I can work with that. Shattered Star has provided me with all the information I need to judge how the beastmen will react to intruders showing up and asking to parley. Strange Aeons is extraordinarily punitive to players who don't follow the "murder anything that moves and steal anything that doesn't" path.
EDIT: Jade Regent still takes the absolute out-and-out cake in that regard. I forget which book it is, but their guide tells them they can take one of three paths. If they choose the wrong one, they are horribly punished and have to go back to the starting point. Needless to say, my group chose BOTH "wrong" paths first. I nearly lost them and had to cancel the AP at that point, but I convinced them the next book was better. So this must have been Book 3, because Books 4-5 rocked.
His reply was, "Then you're NOT plyaing Shadowrun!"Really wish I had been there to ask “So what?”
This reminds me of a thread I started.
I stated up top, “I’m looking to beat this AC and hp with attacks; conjuration (and most magic) doesn’t work; is it possible?” Core only, 3.5, presume no unclear rulings allow/restrictive magic, etc.
I got a lot of good responses, but one dude kept insisting that conjurations were the answer especially from outside core or iffy rulings. I referred him to the fact that they didn’t work. He said, “oh I didn’t read that - I’m just doing this casually; so anyway, teleport.” And the conversation went round and round until I finally explained it was a that controlled his own realm, and he was all, “you should have said so! ... there are rules that mean he can’t do that probably.”
So daggum irritating.
At least I’d gotten the answer is wanted from others, but, ugh.
Man, now I'm kind of glad we didn't get Jade Regent off the ground.
For the record, mine had nothing to do with Jade Regent.
(Though I’m probably going to run it someday.)
That may be obvious, but clarifying juuuuust in case.
E: “run” not “rub” - my “thunbs” slipped, apparently (a common thing) also clarifying.
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Man, now I'm kind of glad we didn't get Jade Regent off the ground.For the record, mine had nothing to do with Jade Regent.
(Though I’m probably going to run it someday.)
That may be obvious, but clarifying juuuuust in case.
E: “run” not “rub” - my “thunbs” slipped, apparently (a common thing) also clarifying.
Book 6 is "OK", but the final castle is utterly FULL of the same enemy (something like 45 of them), and the final boss fight relies on information that you were supposed to start feeding to the PCs way back at the start of Book 5, but couldn't possibly have known about because it's NOT LISTED ANYWHERE except in the entries for the critters in the final fight of Book 6.
Book 3 is a hideous railroad that pretends to give the PCs choices, but if they choose "wrong" they're punished. (There was one point where one path averaged 4 CRs higher than the other.) I think they have the guide at that point. Have him just tell them the path to take; don't offer multiple paths and then punish them for it. Even with that, it's a "meh" book, but getting rid of the "forced path" nonsense would fix most of it.
Book 2 is virtually unrunnable. We have a 'mystery' where:
(1) Anyone you try to question explodes and dies in such a way that even Speak with Dead doesn't help
(2) If you follow the logical path you're attacked and beaten up by a complete stranger for no apparent reason
(3) If you deviate from the "expected" path the events make no sense
(4) The "expected" path itself makes no sense
Honestly, if I'm ever asked to run Jade Regent again I'll just throw Book 2 in the trash and homebrew those levels.
EDIT: Which is a real tragedy, because Greg A. Vaughn also wrote my single-favorite book to date. (The original Skeletons of Scarwall, not the atrocity they created in the update.)
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Book 2 and 3 were actually our favorites.
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Speaking of poorly-thought-out critters, I'm looking at boggards right now.
A force of around 40 boggards seems nigh unstoppable.
Round 1:
(First 20 boggards): We delay until after the other 20 have gone
(Second 20 boggards): We all move within 30' of the enemy and croak. Make 20 Will saves!
Now you're shaken!
(First 20 boggards): Now we move in and croak! Make 20 Will saves!
Now you're frightened!It's just one of those abilities that sounds really cool when you're dealing with ONE boggard, but even a small group of them (say 4-5) turns into an amazingly annoying series of saves...
A force of 40 anything should be unstoppable.
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A lot of this talk reminds me of the first time I encountered the one-way-only mentality, but it was from the other side, sort of. Me and my group at the time really only ever did homebrew material. We'd pick a ruleset and make everything else up as we went along.
The first time I was GMing a Shadowrun campaign, the players were... let's just say they were solving their problems with an excess of bullets. We were all having a great time, but it wasn't where I was expecting the campaign to go, and I felt that the campaign was heading towards a shootout that would not end well for the PCs. So I asked for advice on how to avoid that, looking for ways to redirect the PCs methods instead of probably killing them.
A nice, fun poster who saw himself as a veteran TRPGer was the only person to reply with any significance, but he couldn't do so without his obvious bias:
"Oh, that's Shadowrun. Overwhelming force from the authorities is really the only endpoint for what your PCs have done." He was adamant about not giving alternative solutions even after I maintained that I didn't want a shootout that would likely end the campaign (and potentially everyone's fun). It didn't matter to him. I explained that the game was a homebrew, and we were just using Shadowrun's rules and flavor, not the actual world from the source book. His reply was, "Then you're NOT plyaing Shadowrun!"
After a certain point Shadowrun devolves into early GTA(or GTA 4 with the "you cant go to x or thr police will try their best to kill you)-style nonsense.
That said I fragging love shadowrun, chummer.
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Now I HAVE to see Jade Regent.
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A force of 40 anything should be unstoppable.Speaking of poorly-thought-out critters, I'm looking at boggards right now.
A force of around 40 boggards seems nigh unstoppable.
Round 1:
(First 20 boggards): We delay until after the other 20 have gone
(Second 20 boggards): We all move within 30' of the enemy and croak. Make 20 Will saves!
Now you're shaken!
(First 20 boggards): Now we move in and croak! Make 20 Will saves!
Now you're frightened!It's just one of those abilities that sounds really cool when you're dealing with ONE boggard, but even a small group of them (say 4-5) turns into an amazingly annoying series of saves...
LOL. In my original Crimson Throne run, a force of 115 orcs led by a red dragon were the assault on the Flame clan and the 12th-level PCs.
It was... spectacular and hilarious at the same time. The paladin simply COULD NOT MAKE the perception roll to notice the red dragon bearing down on him until it was under 200' away. At which point a smite-first hit crit with a composite longbow ended the threat almost instantaneously. The dragon's corpse fell on the paladin, the bard summoned an elephant to move the corpse, the elephant fumbled and rolled the corpse so that it was suffocating the paladin...
Oh, and the wizard at extreme range against an army is just unkind. To the army.
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Oh, and I think I lose my Grumpy Old Man credentials if I don't mention that AT&T didn't show up again today.
For the record, this means that as of Wednesday of last week they marked most of the street as no parking M-F of this week. On Tuesday, they came by, dropped off a bunch of advertising stuff door-to-door, then changed the signs to read W-F.
On Wednesday, they actually showed up and did about 5 hours of work.
So, assuming they're going to actually re-pave the one hole they dug, I'd expect them to appear tomorrow. But so far, they've inconvenienced a large number of people for a remarkably small amount of work.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
A force of 40 anything should be unstoppable.Speaking of poorly-thought-out critters, I'm looking at boggards right now.
A force of around 40 boggards seems nigh unstoppable.
Round 1:
(First 20 boggards): We delay until after the other 20 have gone
(Second 20 boggards): We all move within 30' of the enemy and croak. Make 20 Will saves!
Now you're shaken!
(First 20 boggards): Now we move in and croak! Make 20 Will saves!
Now you're frightened!It's just one of those abilities that sounds really cool when you're dealing with ONE boggard, but even a small group of them (say 4-5) turns into an amazingly annoying series of saves...
HE SPITS AT YOUR TWIN-LINKED RAILGUN EQUIPPED MECHS - PTUH! PTUH!
HE SPITS AT YOUR NEEDLEGUN-TOTING PHASE ASSASSINS - PTUH! PTUH! PTUH! - WITH A DERISIVE SNEER ON HIS DARKLY HANDSOME FACE, FOR ZORDLON HAS NOT COME ALONE, NO NO- BEHOLD ZORDLON'S CRACK TEAM OF 40 ONE-EYED CHIHUAHUA PUPPIES AND WEEP! WEEEEEEEP!!!!
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What are you guys doing, talking about playing Pathfinder, what kind of website do you think this is, anyway!
Maybe we should amend FAWTL charter, and add this to flamebikeable offenses?
Huh. Why do I feel that I would paint a big great target mark on my position, then? It's not like I often comment on NobodysHome observations and Tacticslion's ideas...
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Now I HAVE to see Jade Regent.
Be forewarned: There is lots of snow.
:)
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What are you guys doing, talking about playing Pathfinder, what kind of website do you think this is, anyway!Maybe we should amend FAWTL charter, and add this to flamebikeable offenses?
Huh. Why do I feel that I would paint a big great target mark on my position, then? It's not like I often comment on NobodysHome observations and Tacticslion's ideas...
No need for that, I've always found Pathfinder discussions insightful.
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Oh, and I think I lose my Grumpy Old Man credentials if I don't mention that AT&T didn't show up again today.
For the record, this means that as of Wednesday of last week they marked most of the street as no parking M-F of this week. On Tuesday, they came by, dropped off a bunch of advertising stuff door-to-door, then changed the signs to read W-F.
On Wednesday, they actually showed up and did about 5 hours of work.
So, assuming they're going to actually re-pave the one hole they dug, I'd expect them to appear tomorrow. But so far, they've inconvenienced a large number of people for a remarkably small amount of work.
That's 6 more hours than I thought they'd have put in by now.
Are you sure it's AT&T? That's awfully efficient for them.
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Frustrated with Netflix.
Witcher season 1 was over too quickly, and then I got into The Good Place on the recommendation of a friend, and got all the way through the first three seasons only to discover that the final season isn't available for streaming yet.
At least I have game prep to do.
We're having our weekly Azlant session on Saturday instead of Sunday, because Sunday is the annual chili and dessert cook-off at my church.
I've decided that this year I'm in it to win and the gloves are off, so I'm bringing my homemade raspberry marshmallows.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Frustrated with Netflix.
Witcher season 1 was over too quickly, and then I got into The Good Place on the recommendation of a friend, and got all the way through the first three seasons only to discover that the final season isn't available for streaming yet.At least I have game prep to do.
We're having our weekly Azlant session on Saturday instead of Sunday, because Sunday is the annual chili and dessert cook-off at my church.
I've decided that this year I'm in it to win and the gloves are off, so I'm bringing my homemade raspberry marshmallows.
Dracula is really good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Frustrated with Netflix.
Witcher season 1 was over too quickly, and then I got into The Good Place on the recommendation of a friend, and got all the way through the first three seasons only to discover that the final season isn't available for streaming yet.At least I have game prep to do.
We're having our weekly Azlant session on Saturday instead of Sunday, because Sunday is the annual chili and dessert cook-off at my church.
I've decided that this year I'm in it to win and the gloves are off, so I'm bringing my homemade raspberry marshmallows.
All of Macross 7 is up on YouTube.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Frustrated with Netflix.
Witcher season 1 was over too quickly, and then I got into The Good Place on the recommendation of a friend, and got all the way through the first three seasons only to discover that the final season isn't available for streaming yet.
I'm actually kind of happy because that means both are off my "continue watching" queu and I can watch other things and continue to remove them from "my list" (which always seems to grow faster than it shrinks).
At least I have game prep to do.
We're having our weekly Azlant session on Saturday instead of Sunday, because Sunday is the annual chili and dessert cook-off at my church.
I've decided that this year I'm in it to win and the gloves are off, so I'm bringing my homemade raspberry marshmallows.
Huzzah! ... wait, crap, I don't live there! Noooooooooooooooo
Oh, that's just horrifying. Horrifying. You monster.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Frustrated with Netflix.
Witcher season 1 was over too quickly, and then I got into The Good Place on the recommendation of a friend, and got all the way through the first three seasons only to discover that the final season isn't available for streaming yet.
Orthos and me right now. I've almost got him finished with season 2, tho.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
We're having our weekly Azlant session on Saturday instead of Sunday, because Sunday is the annual chili and dessert cook-off at my church.
I've decided that this year I'm in it to win and the gloves are off, so I'm bringing my homemade raspberry marshmallows.
...and this makes me think of Chidi's Peeps-and-M&M Chili.
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Oh, that's just horrifying. Horrifying. You monster.
What's worse? 40 1-eyed Chihuahuas or a 41-eyed Chihuahua?
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What's worse? 40 1-eyed Chihuahuas or a 41-eyed Chihuahua?Oh, that's just horrifying. Horrifying. You monster.
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What's worse? 40 1-eyed Chihuahuas or a 41-eyed Chihuahua?Oh, that's just horrifying. Horrifying. You monster.
<growls at both>
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What's worse? 40 1-eyed Chihuahuas or a 41-eyed Chihuahua?Oh, that's just horrifying. Horrifying. You monster.
The former is swarm material; the latter could be an "improved" familiar option.
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The former is swarm material; the latter could be an "improved" familiar option.What's worse? 40 1-eyed Chihuahuas or a 41-eyed Chihuahua?Oh, that's just horrifying. Horrifying. You monster.
More eyes are always better!!
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LOL. In my original Crimson Throne run, a force of 115 orcs led by a red dragon were the assault on the Flame clan and the 12th-level PCs.
It was... spectacular and hilarious at the same time. The paladin simply COULD NOT MAKE the perception roll to notice the red dragon bearing down on him until it was under 200' away. At which point a smite-first hit crit with a composite longbow ended the threat almost instantaneously. The dragon's corpse fell on the paladin, the bard summoned an elephant to move the corpse, the elephant fumbled and rolled the corpse so that it was suffocating the paladin...
Ha ha ha! Classic. That sounds like a great time.
Oh, and the wizard at extreme range against an army is just unkind. To the army.
There aren't enough encounters with more than 10 enemies for my wizard in my Rise of the Runelords campaign.
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EDIT: Jade Regent still takes the absolute out-and-out cake in that regard. I forget which book it is, but their guide tells them they can take one of three paths. If they choose the wrong one, they are horribly punished and have to go back to the starting point. Needless to say, my group chose BOTH "wrong" paths first. I nearly lost them and had to cancel the AP at that point, but I convinced them the next book was better. So this must have been Book 3, because Books 4-5 rocked.
So it's the Monty Hall AP.