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I was playing 3.5 when Wizards came out with 4th edition. It didn't impress me. The core of an RPG should be Role-playing. Take that out, and you might as well be playing a miniatures-based Wargame.4E was an interesting system with a solid symmetry and a strong understanding of combat design and individual roles in combat encounters.
In a heavy focus and retool along those lines, however, it rejected many of the ideas that had long given D&D its self-identity, especially within specific campaign settings.
In truth, this shift wasn't anything too new: any time a setting is built out of mechanical presumptions and those presumptions change, you're going to have to change the setting. One of the key failures of the 4E transition is that WotC genuinely didn't know how to interface with their own fans. It's a classic case of nerds not knowing how to deal with people - a kind of irony, one supposes.
What's more, though, is that no one who was working on 4E got to do what they wanted to do in the creation of the game. Corporate pressure and self-destructive associates combined to force the game to come out before everything was ready.
All that said, it wasn't a bad game. It was a game whose design was originally embarked upon for the wrong reasons, but it was developed into a solid system - just not one that did what I wanted, and not one that followed its own original intent.
And a lot of the former players thought the same. It did, however, bring in a lot of new players, and that's solid.
That said, the 3rd edition of the game wasn't all that different - it was originally designed by D&D fans to start the game "fresh" so that WotC could make money. This isn't a bad thing. There are lots of stories that go on about how it was designed and why, but, fundamentally, the game (which was tanking, financially) switched hands, and needed a new system to make it financially stable again.
And, frankly, the 3E game wasn't perfect, or even well-designed...
well said.
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Well naked.
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For me, 4E was the reason I bought Pathfinder.
The video-game-style rules and, "Everybody's equal; we just call their abilities different things to make it SEEM cool" was just a turn-off to the entire family.
Runequest 2 is a great example of a well-done "blank template" game: You all start off as useless commoners, and train in the skills in which you choose to train, choose a god to worship, and start specializing and focusing in melee or magic or what-have-you.
To me, 4E had no changes that I liked, and a multitude of changes that I hated.
But a lot of people liked/loved it, so to each their own.
(Fighting off some kind of cold, so taking the afternoon off work, which means I have plenty of typy time before I go to bed.)
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I hope you feel better soon, NH.
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I thought 4E was very stupid but fun, similar to listening to Richie Blackmore or Yngwie Malmsteen solos. I enjoyed playing it, but having to inflict DEATH-EYES OF THE LIGHTNING GIBBON on some poor orc (sorry - Bloodbleeder RageSqueak Orc) twice per encounter was something I couldn't really take seriously.
What would have been cool, IMO, is if WOTC had designed 3E using the Skills and Powers character creation process as a base, maybe with D20 mechanics, maybe not. However, I think I'm alone in this, and I expect that designing NPCs or monsters would have been a bit of a pain in the bum.
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I thought 4E was very stupid but fun, similar to listening to Richie Blackmore or Yngwie Malmsteen solos. I enjoyed playing it, but having to inflict DEATH-EYES OF THE LIGHTNING GIBBON on some poor orc (sorry - Bloodbleeder RageSqueak Orc) twice per encounter was something I couldn't really take seriously.
What would have been cool, IMO, is if WOTC had designed 3E using the Skills and Powers character creation process as a base, maybe with D20 mechanics, maybe not. However, I think I'm alone in this, and I expect that designing NPCs or monsters would have been a bit of a pain in the bum.
skills and powers was a VERY long time to learn, but resulted in VERY unique characters. Loved it for character creation, but it didn't go far enough in other areas.
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Blerg, failed a will save to resist commenting on a flamewar. Dam that double edition-war / paladin penalty!
@NH, Hope you feel better!
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Yeah I had to get out of the playtest forum.
Just once, just once, I'd like to be able to have an internet discussion with like-minded people without some opposition supporter barging in and claiming we need to break up the "echo chamber" for the greater good. (THE GREATER GOOD.)
Is that really so wrong to wish for?
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Curse my wretchedly low Will Save. I know there's an item in one of my many books that will let me reroll failed saves. Probably Magic Item Compendium....
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Given that the echo chamber phenomenon has been demonstrated to be actively dangerous in most situations because it lowers the ability of people to experience polite disagreement and often leads them to parse any opposition as exceedingly hostile?
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Yes. :)
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
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Given that the echo chamber phenomenon has been demonstrated to be actively dangerous in most situations?
So any conversation within which all participants are in agreement needs to be disrupted by an opposition? Because frankly I don't buy that.
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Given that the echo chamber phenomenon has been demonstrated to be actively dangerous in most situations?So any conversation within which all participants are in agreement needs to be disrupted by an opposition? Because frankly I don't buy that.
No, but calling it an echo chamber shows a risk that you're just going to shut out anything you disagree with. Maintain perspective, bro.
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I'm not the one calling it that. The people barging into the discussion are, as justification for their getting involved. Hence the quote marks.
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What were you honestly expecting? You went to discuss rules, alignments, and editions.
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I just want the ability to have a discussion without it becoming a debate or argument. I just want to be able to have a conversation with people I agree with without having to constantly back and forth with people who don't agree. That's all.
Maybe I'm just too tired and overworked and cranky to be on the internet right now.
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Just look up more Kidz Bop. Direct your crankiness that way.
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Yes. :)I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
My wife tells me the same thing.
But I genuinely was joking. I'm trying to be respectful of people who are upset by the change. I'm also upset, if accepting. I remember when I was not accepting. At the moment, there is no way forward for those who want to keep going with 3.x, unlike ten years ago. But there are a number of people who I greatly dislike complaining, which makes being understanding a much greater burden.
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I think I've gotten past the anger and frustration phases and into a sort of resigned acceptance. It's coming, nothing to be done about it but hope the changeover - and more importantly, future PF2 APs - are as easy to reverse engineer into Classic as possible.
My annoyance and frustration above mostly comes as a result of any and all attempts to comiaserate with likeminded people being constantly interrupted or disrupted by fans of the incoming changes who,seem to be spoiling for an argument or looking for older editioners to tell them why they're wrong for not wanting to upgrade.
I just want to sit down with fellow Classic fans and share a drink over stories of what we liked and plans of what we'll do once the system leaves us behind. And it seems like the forum populace is hellbent on making sure we can't do that.
I think I've gotten past the anger and frustration phases and into a sort of resigned acceptance. It's coming, nothing to be done about it but hope the changeover - and more importantly, future PF2 APs - are as easy to reverse engineer into Classic as possible.
My annoyance and frustration above mostly comes as a result of any and all attempts to comiaserate with likeminded people being constantly interrupted or disrupted by fans of the incoming changes who,seem to be spoiling for an argument or looking for older editioners to tell them why they're wrong for not wanting to upgrade.
I just want to sit down with fellow Classic fans and share a drink over stories of what we liked and plans of what we'll do once the system leaves us behind. And it seems like the forum populace is hellbent on making sure we can't do that.
the new system isn't here yet. I would say this would be a great thing to do if it was opening week, but it was just announced. Can't mourn something that isn't gone yet.
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I got roped into subbing again.
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Watch me =p
In seriousness you're probably right. Doesn't change my frustration with any conversation I try to get involved in degrading into yet another internet argument. But then I should know better by now, I suppose.
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Seriously, why do I keep having to cover chem? I remember barely any of this.
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I think the big difference for me last time was it seemed less personal. I didn't have anything invested in 4e and PF had made it clear that 3e wasn't going anywhere.
It may not be dead yet, but it has gotten its terminal notice and everything from this point is a countdown until if some enterprising publisher steps in.
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"If you have any questions, you can ask Ms. Scint!"
YEAH ABOUT THAT
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I guess the game is now to find the worst Kidz Bop cover
Wow. Kinda makes you miss the good ole days of "What amazing song will Donny and Marie completely destroy when they cover it on their show *next* week?
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Boss is really getting on my nerves today. We are finally at a full staff after someone has returned from maternity leave, but you wouldn't know it from his panicking over someone spending time in the bathroom and/or going to lunch. He needs to take a chill pill.
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The difference for me this time, I have way more confidence in Paizo not to f*$# things up then I ever had with WotC.
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I guess the game is now to find the worst Kidz Bop coverWow. Kinda makes you miss the good ole days of "What amazing song will Donny and Marie completely destroy when they cover it on their show *next* week?
I totally didn't have to Google Donny and Marie, nope.
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Boss is really getting on my nerves today. We are finally at a full staff after someone has returned from maternity leave, but you wouldn't know it from his panicking over someone spending time in the bathroom and/or going to lunch. He needs to take a chill pill.
Yeah, my manager has those days, where she has to ping me every hour to find out what I'm doing and whether I've done xxx yet.
And we've been working together for FOURTEEN YEARS. You'd think she'd know me better by now...
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WE HAD THUNDERSNOW TODAY
Seriously, why do I keep having to cover chem? I remember barely any of this.
Fake it.
Oooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrr use the heavy-handed version that disparages someone else's hard work while being technically accurate.
"Look at the chart. Everything else is 'base plus acid = water plus salt.' End of class."
"But-"
"END. OF. CLASSSSSSS.'
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They've been moving the General's office building into a new office building this week.
You wanna talk about work stress!
I blame Nobody for starting this failroad adventure
>.<
...
... I will say that my Eldest has noted that he actually, "kinda likes it" when he's heard a few of these playing in the background. It's cute, as he's totally the target audience. I do appreciate that he has the confidence to say so, even when Daddy is cringing.
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For some, 2nd edition of Pathfinder is end of their world...
For me it's a chance to add another RPG system to the list of systems I played...
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Ha! I return from session with an actual loot!
Behold the NEW CHAIR!
Ok, not so new. One of my fellow player's corp was getting rid of old chairs (and by old I mean slightly used) so she grabbed a number of them for 5 zloty each...
(five zloty is approximately price of an ice cream, a bus ticket, or 1.5 liter of Pepsi/Coca-Cola)
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Also, Isawa Aki, my Pheonix-clan shugenja got married to Iuchi Yoru, Unicorn-clan shugenja played by said player.
She got an unexpected bonus in the form of a ghost of my grandmother, deceased Mistress of Void, who after some grumbling on me marrying an Unicorn, started pestering us about Void-wielding heir.
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It's almost three years old, but... wonderful skit.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand now I need to play FTL again. Sigh. EDIT: for the link!
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I got two chair, actually, but there was space for only one in the car I was driven back to home. The other one will be taken either on Sunday or the next Wednesday. I hope.
The new chair is comfy. At least for now. We'll see after a few days how my back will feel.
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Excellent! It can join The New Mattress in the Drejktheon!
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Okay, I'm starting to like the new forum layout on my phone.
FaWtL and my Fallout 4 thread are just a few threads apart now.
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So Scint has talked me into taking this whole thing as an opportunity. Possibly by making and releasing our own archetypes, adventures, and such for Classic in the future.
The hitch is that I have utterly no idea where to start. =p
So Scint has talked me into taking this whole thing as an opportunity. Possibly by making and releasing our own archetypes, adventures, and such for Classic in the future.
The hitch is that I have utterly no idea where to start. =p
I have one word for you, just one word: psionics.
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DSP content - both psionics and Path of War, plus possibly Akasha once I better wrap my head around it - will certainly be regularly used, provided I get the legal stuff out if the way.
It's just the general sitrep of "how do I shot web" I'm more out of my depth on >.>