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lynora wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:
Flu shot time! ... gotta be enthusiastic for the kids. Sigh.

Well, you're better about that than I. I made the kidlet get the flu shot while openly admitting that I wasn't going to get it myself. He was not amused by this hypocrisy. :)

Turns out there was a problem with my insurance card for some unknown reason. Couldn't do it. BlaAaaaaarrrrg. So much psyching myself up for no reason.

EDIT: I was totally dressed. It was a pharmacy! *clothed*


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Scintillae wrote:
Much as it may pain some of my kids, I think I like this "show me your outline before you do your essay" system. I stopped two kids before they started going off on a thesis that made no sense.

thats surprisingly fair.


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Freehold DM wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:

What it's like living with foodies:

  • NobodysHome realizes that it's December, and although he despises the foul substance, he buys a quart of Horizon Organic Lowfat Eggnog
  • The next morning, NobodysHome checks the shopping list, and Impus Major has put eggnog on the list
  • Assuming it's Impus Major's horrific Perception roll at work, NobodysHome shows Impus Major the eggnog. Impus Major dutifully pours himself a glass and takes a sip, all the while staring at NobodysHome
  • This morning, NobodysHome checks the shopping list. Bud's Eggnog is on the list.

  • *sigh*
    what is bud's eggnog?

    It's a local brand that is considered far superior to all other eggnogs. All restaurants that serve eggnog use it. All people who drink eggnog buy it. I just figured Horizon is a cut above Berkeley Farms for most dairy products, so I bought Horizon eggnog.

    I was wrong.

    EDIT: Yeah, yeah. I know. You're a New Yorker. "Well, I've never tasted it, but Bud's is garbage compared to xxx!"
    Go ahead. I know it's a requirement of living there.

    actually, i am a conessouir of eggnog, so I am quite interested in sampling this eggnog your son speaks of. Send a box my way, if possible.

    Bah, try kogel-mogel!


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    Whee, I get to make a bunch of cornbread this weekend for the faculty chili cook-off.

    I have a good chili recipe. I just want to be lazy about it. >_>


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    lynora wrote:
    It is delightfully cold outside. I even got to break out the super comfy Uggs. I love winter. ^.^

    marries lynora when she isnt looking, provides silk nog as a dowery


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    lynora wrote:
    Since the kidlet has karate this afternoon I am at a cafe while I wait. The karate school has no wifi these days, and I do not have it in me to sit and watch karate lessons for 45 minutes. I just don't. Anyhow, I just noticed that the barista has really beautiful handwriting when I glanced at my cup. And spelled my name correctly. That, like, never happens. :)

    lynora is easy to spell. Its just like it sounds.


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    lynora wrote:
    Trying to figure out the best timing to talk to the kidlet's caseworker about getting him out of social group. It was supposed to be helpful for teaching him communication skills because of his problems with pragmatic speech. The reality is that the group leaders have no idea what they're talking about. Yelling at the kid with autism and ADHD because he doesn't sit completely still and make their idea of good eye contact is....I honestly can't think of language strong enough to express how bloody furious I am with these people right now. And they have no business trying to teach my child anything. They shouldn't be working with special needs kids at all if that's what they think of as helping. Nothing that they're doing even has jack-all to do with anything in his IEP. It was supposed to be about learning how to hold a conversation without following a script, not how to stress the kid out trying to force him to adhere to a standard of neurotypical behavior that even neurotypical people can't meet. Every conversation topic they address follows a script too. So, again, not remotely how they're supposed to teach. Grr.

    They are ill equipped in temperment. Time to pull him out.


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    Tacticslion wrote:
    Flu shot time! ... gotta be enthusiastic for the kids. Sigh.

    i dont flu shot. Nor will my children. Let them get sick. Part of being a kid.


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    Drejk wrote:
    Freehold DM wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:
    Freehold DM wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:

    What it's like living with foodies:

  • NobodysHome realizes that it's December, and although he despises the foul substance, he buys a quart of Horizon Organic Lowfat Eggnog
  • The next morning, NobodysHome checks the shopping list, and Impus Major has put eggnog on the list
  • Assuming it's Impus Major's horrific Perception roll at work, NobodysHome shows Impus Major the eggnog. Impus Major dutifully pours himself a glass and takes a sip, all the while staring at NobodysHome
  • This morning, NobodysHome checks the shopping list. Bud's Eggnog is on the list.

  • *sigh*
    what is bud's eggnog?

    It's a local brand that is considered far superior to all other eggnogs. All restaurants that serve eggnog use it. All people who drink eggnog buy it. I just figured Horizon is a cut above Berkeley Farms for most dairy products, so I bought Horizon eggnog.

    I was wrong.

    EDIT: Yeah, yeah. I know. You're a New Yorker. "Well, I've never tasted it, but Bud's is garbage compared to xxx!"
    Go ahead. I know it's a requirement of living there.

    actually, i am a conessouir of eggnog, so I am quite interested in sampling this eggnog your son speaks of. Send a box my way, if possible.
    Bah, try kogel-mogel!

    freehold will consider.


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    Freehold DM wrote:
    Tacticslion wrote:
    Flu shot time! ... gotta be enthusiastic for the kids. Sigh.
    i dont flu shot. Nor will my children. Let them get sick. Part of being a kid.

    Indeed, a hearty constitution is needed to survive the harsh tundra winters.


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    lynora wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:

    Yeah, lynora, I know what it's like. ALL I need is to be informed of Impus Major's assignments, because he is utterly incapable of bringing them home himself.

    "Oh, no. We won't do that. He needs to learn responsibility."

    As I think I posted on FaWtL before, can anyone name a job where you can't ask your manager, "I'm sorry, but what was it you wanted me doing right now again?"

    Once? Most managers are fine. 100 times? Yeah, I see that as being an issue. But just, "When you assign homework, include me on the list" doesn't seem like a hardship on the teachers.

    OMG, yes! Thank goodness for Google Classroom and Power School or I swear that child would be flunking out of high school instead of getting mostly A's. I have to check every freaking night or his grades take a nosedive because of all the crap that doesn't get turned in! That's one thing our school does right and the principal at the high school is really passionate about making sure that stuff is updated frequently.

    Edit: But they did not do that at the middle school and that was a whole other kettle of fish with very uncooperative teachers, so I definitely understand that pain.

    You mean kids theese days don't even have to turn it in in paper copies anymore. That was the hardest and scariest part.


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    lynora wrote:
    Trying to figure out the best timing to talk to the kidlet's caseworker about getting him out of social group. It was supposed to be helpful for teaching him communication skills because of his problems with pragmatic speech. The reality is that the group leaders have no idea what they're talking about. Yelling at the kid with autism and ADHD because he doesn't sit completely still and make their idea of good eye contact is....I honestly can't think of language strong enough to express how bloody furious I am with these people right now. And they have no business trying to teach my child anything. They shouldn't be working with special needs kids at all if that's what they think of as helping. Nothing that they're doing even has jack-all to do with anything in his IEP. It was supposed to be about learning how to hold a conversation without following a script, not how to stress the kid out trying to force him to adhere to a standard of neurotypical behavior that even neurotypical people can't meet. Every conversation topic they address follows a script too. So, again, not remotely how they're supposed to teach. Grr.

    Sigh...

    I'm sad to hear this.
    Its really tricky to comment on as I really don't know the kid, but I recognize enough of the problems as a fellow sufferer of both autism and ADHD.
    From my perspective, causal conversation, was difficult because firstly, I had difficulty in reading people as I couldn't focus on them. I found it uncomfortable to look people in the eyes, and my gaze would generally wander to the surroundings if whatever was said took more then a few minutes.
    As I grew older focusing became less of an issue, replaced with an overt intense focus on a particular body part or object on the speaker, such as the mouth, an earring or a watch.
    Even later on as I learned that this intense focus on a particular object, tended to provoke peculiar reactions in the people I was communicating with. So I started to shift between objects, exclude the objects/body parts that got the most negative reactions, and even tried to look "through" people so as to make my gaze linger as little as possible on them. Slowly I accumulated a knowledge of things, body parts and gaze options, that were "tolerable" for those who I was talking to.
    This was by no way a perfect system. Still to this day I find it difficult to hold the gaze of someone, and I too tend to let my gaze "wander" over people (and yes, the reactions tends to run the gamut of "he's weird" to "he's ogling me!").

    Secondly, casual conversation is hard, since it has no apparent function. Wrapping ones head around doing something that doesn't either give ones a feeling of comfort and elation, or something that results in the production of some kind of physically stimulating reward is hard when your on the autistic spectrum (or at least its been for me). It a bit like a form of infantile egocentrism. The world literally revolves around your emotional and physical response to it. Everything is processed through a very narrow POW, that you quickly learn, isn't necessarily shared by the people around you. This makes communication, that isn't very specific and goal-oriented hard as it often comes across as strange, pointless and even uncomfortable.
    An example is a question such as: "How are you?". It's pretty easy as it clearly references how you are feeling, if you are sick or having problems of some kind.
    Yet what are the expectations of the question? Who's asking? Where do you start?
    I mean, I would simply babble on about everything from the stubbed toe I got yesterday to my current feelings of inadequacy since I couldn't figure out how to express my feelings for this particular girl. Then again, I've meet autists that you couldn't pry open, until they felt comfortable around you.
    Another example is the question/statement: "Nice weather, isn't it?". This was a non-starter for me. It's pointless and can be confirmed or denied by look around yourself. A simple waste of time was how I saw it. If people had something to say, then they should say it, instead of wrapping it up in weird games of exchanging meaningless "pleasantries"

    Enough of my babbling...
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm there with your frustration. Then again my situation was different the your kid's. I didn't get diagnosed before I was already out of high school (or the over here equivalent actually). So I got treated all the way through school as "weird", "eccentric" or "demanding"...on the other hand I mostly got teachers who actually cared enough to try and reach me. So I learned to cope in different ways, and while it wasn't without problems, I turned out at least somewhat alright.
    Just wanted you to know that I'll gladly lend an ear if you need someone listen...


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    OK, I was pretty proud of this one: Telling NobodysWife about my departing co-worker:
    "Yeah, I really liked her and she did good work, but towards the end it was obvious that she didn't give a s*** any more."
    "It's what Global Megacorporation does to people."
    "We're a mental constipation factory."

    The Exchange

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    Yeah austism...down here they are put in mainstream schools because there's not enough special needs schools available and the teacher, who has 30 other students can't give her attention to one autistic kid when she has a class to teach. Not to mention most teachers here aren't even taught what to do about autistic kids.

    The needs of many outweigh the needs of a few...

    Hell I don't know what to do with an autistic kid either. Except let them do their own thing in class.

    I was in teaching once but realized it wasn't for me. Not a people person, you know.

    And Kjeldorn - I generally don't really do casual conversations well either but I've gotten better at it from living with a bunch of extroverts. If you share my hobbies I can be positively chatty...


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    "I'll pour some vinegar down there, and that'll even it out" - The General.


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    captain yesterday wrote:
    "I'll pour some vinegar down there, and that'll even it out" - The General.

    ... What?


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    The sink.


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    Vinegar down the drain removes odors.


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    Savage Tide update! Got a whole chapter up tonight =)


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    NobodysHome wrote:
    Speaking of which, we're losing a team member. Anyone U.S.-based have a computer background that shows up on a resume? (Sorry, but unlike my real-time job, the HR department at our global megacorporation filters out any resumes that don't match the listed prereqs, which is a HUGE PITA because I can't recommend people I think would do well because HR tosses 'em out because they don't have a "B.A." after their name. Feh)

    Does selling computers for 3 years, repairing them for 4, and working for the phone company in the tech side for 17 years count as in the computer field? Sadly, I do not have a degree. All self taught or leaned on the job.

    Note - I am not really looking for a job right now, but I wanted to see if that qualified.


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    Unfortunately there are a LOT of businesses nowadays who don't care about any experience if you don't have a degree. If you don't have that little piece of paper, your resume goes in the trash, end of line.


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    We have a 50/50 chance of getting ice or snow tomorrow morning.


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    Sharoth wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:
    Speaking of which, we're losing a team member. Anyone U.S.-based have a computer background that shows up on a resume? (Sorry, but unlike my real-time job, the HR department at our global megacorporation filters out any resumes that don't match the listed prereqs, which is a HUGE PITA because I can't recommend people I think would do well because HR tosses 'em out because they don't have a "B.A." after their name. Feh)

    Does selling computers for 3 years, repairing them for 4, and working for the phone company in the tech side for 17 years count as in the computer field? Sadly, I do not have a degree. All self taught or leaned on the job.

    Note - I am not really looking for a job right now, but I wanted to see if that qualified.

    All I know is that back before we got acquired by Global Megacorporation, I could bring a resume to my manager and say, "We should check this person out," and she'd bring that person in for an interview.

    Now she doesn't have that luxury. I have to put the resume into the massive meat grinder that is our hiring database. I have yet to put someone in and hear that they heard anything back. But my manager always says, "We never get enough interviews, so if you know someone who might be interested, let them know."

    So I think HR is a major roadblock for us. They've sent us some amazingly awful candidates, and I'm sure a plethora of good ones have gotten away without our ever talking to them.


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    Orthos wrote:
    Unfortunately there are a LOT of businesses nowadays who don't care about any experience if you don't have a degree. If you don't have that little piece of paper, your resume goes in the trash, end of line.

    ~sighs~ Oh, I know that. I had planned on going back to school to get my associates this year, but between the night shift and some other work related stuff, some RL drama, the wife having some health issues, and my Mom's fourth bout of cancer... Oh well. Maybe next year.


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    OK. Today I finally broke out the Instant Pot for only maybe the 3rd time ever. And instead of boiling the potatoes to make mashed potatoes, I pressure-cooked them.

    Oh... my... goodness!

    As NobodysWife put it, the potatoes tasted like I'd put in a quart of half and half and a pound of butter. And no, I didn't.

    Instant Pot wins this round... but it doesn't have a "potatoes" setting, so one demerit for that.


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    Yay! It's snowing!

    That explains why the dog wanted to go out so bad.


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    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.

    I regret nothing!


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    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.

    Watch out for Humperdink.


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    Gambitbear wrote:
    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.
    Watch out for Humperdink.

    I was thinking this instead.


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    Scintillae wrote:
    Gambitbear wrote:
    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.
    Watch out for Humperdink.
    I was thinking this instead.

    Therein lies the differences in our upbringing =)


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    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Gambitbear wrote:
    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.
    Watch out for Humperdink.
    I was thinking this instead.
    Therein lies the differences in our upbringing =)

    You make it sound like I wasn't raised on that movie.


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    Though we did leave out Option 3.


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    Scintillae wrote:
    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Gambitbear wrote:
    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.
    Watch out for Humperdink.
    I was thinking this instead.
    Therein lies the differences in our upbringing =)
    You make it sound like I wasn't raised on that movie.

    I didn't see Princess Bride until I was 19 >_>


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    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Gambitbear wrote:
    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.
    Watch out for Humperdink.
    I was thinking this instead.
    Therein lies the differences in our upbringing =)
    You make it sound like I wasn't raised on that movie.
    I didn't see Princess Bride until I was 19 >_>

    Inconceivable.


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    Scintillae wrote:
    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Gambitbear wrote:
    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.
    Watch out for Humperdink.
    I was thinking this instead.
    Therein lies the differences in our upbringing =)
    You make it sound like I wasn't raised on that movie.
    I didn't see Princess Bride until I was 19 >_>
    Inconceivable.

    That's what Ebon said. Before dragging me to go watch it.


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    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Gambitbear wrote:
    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.
    Watch out for Humperdink.
    I was thinking this instead.
    Therein lies the differences in our upbringing =)
    You make it sound like I wasn't raised on that movie.
    I didn't see Princess Bride until I was 19 >_>
    Inconceivable.
    That's what Ebon said. Before dragging me to go watch it.

    Well, I hope she set the volume properly on the TV when you watched it. 48 or 49, but not to 50.


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    "I don't think that word means what you think it means." :D


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    Aaaaand I'm trapped in the Gilbert & Sullivan vortex on Youtube.


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    You did this to yourself.


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    Orthos wrote:
    I didn't see Princess Bride until I was 19 >_>

    Best part of the madrigal performance: A girl managed to do a dead-on perfect imitation of the chaplain. My jaw was on the floor the whole time. Some people just have talent.


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    Freehold DM wrote:
    lynora wrote:
    Since the kidlet has karate this afternoon I am at a cafe while I wait. The karate school has no wifi these days, and I do not have it in me to sit and watch karate lessons for 45 minutes. I just don't. Anyhow, I just noticed that the barista has really beautiful handwriting when I glanced at my cup. And spelled my name correctly. That, like, never happens. :)
    lynora is easy to spell. Its just like it sounds.

    Yes, exactly. Unfortunately my offline name is subject to....we'll just call it creative spelling. And I'm like, come on, I already gave you the shortened version which eliminated like twelve of the most common mistakes right off the bat! :P


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    doctor_wu wrote:
    lynora wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:

    Yeah, lynora, I know what it's like. ALL I need is to be informed of Impus Major's assignments, because he is utterly incapable of bringing them home himself.

    "Oh, no. We won't do that. He needs to learn responsibility."

    As I think I posted on FaWtL before, can anyone name a job where you can't ask your manager, "I'm sorry, but what was it you wanted me doing right now again?"

    Once? Most managers are fine. 100 times? Yeah, I see that as being an issue. But just, "When you assign homework, include me on the list" doesn't seem like a hardship on the teachers.

    OMG, yes! Thank goodness for Google Classroom and Power School or I swear that child would be flunking out of high school instead of getting mostly A's. I have to check every freaking night or his grades take a nosedive because of all the crap that doesn't get turned in! That's one thing our school does right and the principal at the high school is really passionate about making sure that stuff is updated frequently.

    Edit: But they did not do that at the middle school and that was a whole other kettle of fish with very uncooperative teachers, so I definitely understand that pain.

    You mean kids theese days don't even have to turn it in in paper copies anymore. That was the hardest and scariest part.

    Depends on the class. Sometimes stuff can be turned in through google classroom, sometimes they have to turn in paper copies. But the assignments all have to be listed online, so it's a lot harder to lose track of things than it would be otherwise.


    DAGGUMMIT MICROSOFT I SAID NOT TO DO THAT

    ... and so, while I was putting my youngest to sleep, my computer goes on an hour+ long automated shutdown and update while my phone is on ~4% battery. Dang it.

    >:(


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    Kjeldorn wrote:


    [a lot of good stuff]

    Thanks for sharing that. It's helpful to hear more perspectives of what it's like to live with autism as I'm generally the one who ends up having to teach the kidlet 'how to fake normal well enough'. It's the blind leading the blind really. I'm rubbish at small talk and anything that involves showing emotion. (I am not a robot, I just prefer to keep my emotions on the inside. They're like internal organs that way. Much more healthy when they're not on display. :P) But I turned the whole intensity of my ability to hyper focus towards studying human behavior when I was small, as if I were an alien anthropologist let loose to study the natives in their natural habitat, which knowledge has long term proved to be very helpful at blending in with normal people for short periods of time. And has proved very helpful in teaching lessons like 'how to fake eye contact without making either yourself or the other person uncomfortable' and 'how to determine mood from vocal pitch and volume', which the kidlet does appreciate. ^.^


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    Scintillae wrote:
    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Orthos wrote:
    Scintillae wrote:
    Gambitbear wrote:
    captain yesterday wrote:
    I'm making a Skittermander Solarian named Buttercup.
    Watch out for Humperdink.
    I was thinking this instead.
    Therein lies the differences in our upbringing =)
    You make it sound like I wasn't raised on that movie.
    I didn't see Princess Bride until I was 19 >_>
    Inconceivable.

    I still have not watched it but do not watch movies much.


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    lynora wrote:
    doctor_wu wrote:
    lynora wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:

    Yeah, lynora, I know what it's like. ALL I need is to be informed of Impus Major's assignments, because he is utterly incapable of bringing them home himself.

    "Oh, no. We won't do that. He needs to learn responsibility."

    As I think I posted on FaWtL before, can anyone name a job where you can't ask your manager, "I'm sorry, but what was it you wanted me doing right now again?"

    Once? Most managers are fine. 100 times? Yeah, I see that as being an issue. But just, "When you assign homework, include me on the list" doesn't seem like a hardship on the teachers.

    OMG, yes! Thank goodness for Google Classroom and Power School or I swear that child would be flunking out of high school instead of getting mostly A's. I have to check every freaking night or his grades take a nosedive because of all the crap that doesn't get turned in! That's one thing our school does right and the principal at the high school is really passionate about making sure that stuff is updated frequently.

    Edit: But they did not do that at the middle school and that was a whole other kettle of fish with very uncooperative teachers, so I definitely understand that pain.

    You mean kids theese days don't even have to turn it in in paper copies anymore. That was the hardest and scariest part.
    Depends on the class. Sometimes stuff can be turned in through google classroom, sometimes they have to turn in paper copies. But the assignments all have to be listed online, so it's a lot harder to lose track of things than it would be otherwise.

    Yes I would do all the homework then lose it and start panicking in class.


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    doctor_wu wrote:
    lynora wrote:
    doctor_wu wrote:
    lynora wrote:
    NobodysHome wrote:

    Yeah, lynora, I know what it's like. ALL I need is to be informed of Impus Major's assignments, because he is utterly incapable of bringing them home himself.

    "Oh, no. We won't do that. He needs to learn responsibility."

    As I think I posted on FaWtL before, can anyone name a job where you can't ask your manager, "I'm sorry, but what was it you wanted me doing right now again?"

    Once? Most managers are fine. 100 times? Yeah, I see that as being an issue. But just, "When you assign homework, include me on the list" doesn't seem like a hardship on the teachers.

    OMG, yes! Thank goodness for Google Classroom and Power School or I swear that child would be flunking out of high school instead of getting mostly A's. I have to check every freaking night or his grades take a nosedive because of all the crap that doesn't get turned in! That's one thing our school does right and the principal at the high school is really passionate about making sure that stuff is updated frequently.

    Edit: But they did not do that at the middle school and that was a whole other kettle of fish with very uncooperative teachers, so I definitely understand that pain.

    You mean kids theese days don't even have to turn it in in paper copies anymore. That was the hardest and scariest part.
    Depends on the class. Sometimes stuff can be turned in through google classroom, sometimes they have to turn in paper copies. But the assignments all have to be listed online, so it's a lot harder to lose track of things than it would be otherwise.
    Yes I would do all the homework then lose it and start panicking in class.

    Well, that sounds familiar. And this is why the kidlet has a giant binder full of papers...and a mom who checks around where he was doing his homework to make sure that he put all of the papers back in it. I know this pain. I was also bad at organization at his age. Not as bad at organization as my parents, but that level of chaos takes time to develop. (The number of times my dad threw away my homework before I could turn it in was staggering. As if I needed the help losing my homework!)


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    I should probably go attempt to sleep. Tomorrow is another early day. Unfortunately. I hate mornings. They'd be much better if they happened after noon. ;)


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    Tacticslion wrote:

    DAGGUMMIT MICROSOFT I SAID NOT TO DO THAT

    ... and so, while I was putting my youngest to sleep, my computer goes on an hour+ long automated shutdown and update while my phone is on ~4% battery. Dang it.

    >:(

    That is why I switched to Linux. I had that happen before going to classes. Scary as hell and windows tends to start up shout down because of large binaries and lots of disk io which was bad on my old hard drive.

    The Exchange

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    I wish I could keep my emotions on the inside... If I'm pissed I'll go around radiating irritation and pissing the whole world off, so the entire world would know about it.

    And I'm about as sensitive as a block of wood...

    And my homework? Oh it's somewhere in that pile of...clutter...someplace...

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