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So a lot of my fellow PFS fighterish type players are using Large Bastard Swords as their main weapon. Here is my problem though when it comes to the wording of the Bastard Sword in the Core Rulebook.
Sword, Bastard A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
My interpretation of the rules is that only a bastard sword of the appropriate size category for a character can be made into a martial weapon (because it already states how large and unwieldy it is to deal with without taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). But because it states if you wield a bastard sword in two hands without EWP, a LARGE bastard sword becomes a martial weapon. I think this breaks the spirit of the first line of one being of appropriate size being too large without special training, meaning a too large sword that's even larger shouldn't become martial.
But apparently people see it different and are basically saying they don't have to take EWP for a Large Bastard Sword. Please give me some feedback, because this is very important to PFS play within my area.
Well considering RAW says that a weapon dealing 1d10 bumped up a size category deals 2d8, considering this is only 9 points of DPR as apposed to a greatsword which is 7 DPR and a normal bastard sword does 5.5 DPR, I'd say they could use it in two hands. Just make sure you don't forget the -2 penalty for wielding a weapon which is one size category too large.
So with the -2 to hit and +2 damage on average I'd say its pretty balanced its like an always active power attack.
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Despite the fact that I agree with you (in that it goes against the spirit of the weapon being exotic for being "large"), proficiency and weapon size are unrelated. The fighterish type players are correctly using their bastard swords (so long as they are taking a -2 penalty for using an inappropriately-sized weapon).
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Despite the fact that I agree with you (in that it goes against the spirit of the weapon being exotic for being "large"), proficiency and weapon size are unrelated. The fighterish type players are correctly using their bastard swords (so long as they are taking a -2 penalty for using an inappropriately-sized weapon).
See, I think they should be taking a -6 overall (-4 for not being proficient, -2 for the size category discrepancy). I really do feel the whole line about it becoming martial when you two hand it only applies if the weapon was of the appropriate size to be one handed if you had EWP. At least that's how I read the rule as is.
It's normally a 2 handed weapon. If you increase the size without the feat it goes from two handed to too big to use at all.
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After reviewing this further, I think you may be on to something Joseph.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Thus your argument:
1) As a two-handed (martial) weapon, a Large-sized bastard sword becomes unwieldable by a Medium character.2) A one-handed (exotic) bastard sword becomes a two-handed (exotic) weapon.
I find I agree with this assessment.
EDIT: And of course I am ninja'd.
After reviewing this further, I think you may be on to something Joseph.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.Thus your argument:
1) As a two-handed (martial) weapon, a Large-sized bastard sword becomes unwieldable by a Medium character.
2) A one-handed (exotic) bastard sword becomes a two-handed (exotic) weapon.I find I agree with this assessment.
EDIT: And of course I am ninja'd.
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It's normally a 2 handed weapon. If you increase the size without the feat it goes from two handed to too big to use at all.
It's actually listed as a one-handed weapon in the book, but it is only a one handed weapon if you have EWP in it.
Tom, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I think the large-sized outcategorizes itself from being able to being used by a medium creature.
BTW, what does it mean to be ninja'd?
Despite the fact that I agree with you (in that it goes against the spirit of the weapon being exotic for being "large"), proficiency and weapon size are unrelated. The fighterish type players are correctly using their bastard swords (so long as they are taking a -2 penalty for using an inappropriately-sized weapon).See, I think they should be taking a -6 overall (-4 for not being proficient, -2 for the size category discrepancy). I really do feel the whole line about it becoming martial when you two hand it only applies if the weapon was of the appropriate size to be one handed if you had EWP. At least that's how I read the rule as is.
There is also the matter of effort.
it takes exotic weapon proficiency to wield a bastard sword in one hand . Whithout it is a two-handed weapon.As a weapon increases in size so does the effort increase. That means a human connot normally use a large greatsword, but could use a large longsword in two hands (with the -4 penalty).
The same applies to bastadswords. If you only have martial weapon proficiency, it is a two-handed weapon for you, and you would be unable to wield a large sized version if you yourself are medium sized. Conversely if you have exotic weapon proficiency it is normally only a one-handed weapon for you and the effort just increases to two-handed weapon.
In other words: If your medium character wants to use a large bastard sword you have to have exotic weapon proficiency (bastard sword).
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon
(whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed,
or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered
by one step for each size category of difference between
the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the
weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would
wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed
weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to
something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by
this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
EDIT: Ninja'd by BigNorseWolf, Tom Baumbach, Remco Sommeling, Joseph Caubo, Kthulhu. Note to self, don't get caught up in a coffee room discussion while writing a messageboard post.
@ Joseph Caubo: Ninja'd means someone posted between you started writing your response and actaully submitted it.
Unusable at all seems a bit too hars to me, it might just become a large sized improvised weapon.
Saying you can't use it at all is goofy.
It's also a bit hazy because the wording implies that the moment a bastard sword is wielded 2 handed it becomes Martial... which is NOT precluded by increasing the size, or dependent upon it.
I think we're getting caught up on the size of the weapon. I don't believe that the weapon's physical size magically changes depending on wether or not you hold it in two hands.
Let's look at the rules logic on this one.
1. The weapon is listed as a One Handed weapon on the weapon charts (delineating it's size).
2. A special rule states that when you wield it with two hands it's considered martial.
3. A special rule states that it cannot be wielded one handed without an exotic weapon proficiency.
I'm just not seeing where the sword grows between the two uses, or where it's trying to be wielded one handed.
The weapon is hardly unbalancing, so I wouldn't sweat it. Technically with that ruling it would be usable even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, you'd just suffer a -6 to hit with it (-2 size, -4 non proficiency, it's only a two handed weapon)
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Unusable at all seems a bit too hars to me, it might just become a large sized improvised weapon.
Saying you can't use it at all is goofy.
It's also a bit hazy because the wording implies that the moment a bastard sword is wielded 2 handed it becomes Martial... which is NOT precluded by increasing the size, or dependent upon it.
I think we're getting caught up on the size of the weapon. I don't believe that the weapon's physical size magically changes depending on wether or not you hold it in two hands.
Let's look at the rules logic on this one.
1. The weapon is listed as a One Handed weapon on the weapon charts (delineating it's size).
2. A special rule states that when you wield it with two hands it's considered martial.
3. A special rule states that it cannot be wielded one handed without an exotic weapon proficiency.
I'm just not seeing where the sword grows between the two uses, or where it's trying to be wielded one handed.
The weapon is hardly unbalancing, so I wouldn't sweat it. Technically with that ruling it would be usable even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, you'd just suffer a -6 to hit with it (-2 size, -4 non proficiency, it's only a two handed weapon)
1. It is only one-handed if you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Otherwise it is considered a two-handed weapon for your class.
2. The paragraph it talks about becoming martial is ONLY specifying for your appropriate size category. Because a large Bastard Sword is not a one-handed weapon for a medium creature who has EWP (Bastard Sword), it is a two-handed weapon at that point. Which means it is a size category up from being a two-handed weapon from folks without the feat, thus the mechanics follow the rules laid out on p. 144 as already quoted by The Grandfather.
3. The rule for it not being able to wielded one handed without the feat is listed in the text for the Bastard Sword on p. 149. It states its only one-handed for folks with EWP (BS).
It is only one-handed if you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Otherwise it is considered a two-handed weapon for your class.Unusable at all seems a bit too hars to me, it might just become a large sized improvised weapon.
Saying you can't use it at all is goofy.
It's also a bit hazy because the wording implies that the moment a bastard sword is wielded 2 handed it becomes Martial... which is NOT precluded by increasing the size, or dependent upon it.
I think we're getting caught up on the size of the weapon. I don't believe that the weapon's physical size magically changes depending on wether or not you hold it in two hands.
Let's look at the rules logic on this one.
1. The weapon is listed as a One Handed weapon on the weapon charts (delineating it's size).
2. A special rule states that when you wield it with two hands it's considered martial.
3. A special rule states that it cannot be wielded one handed without an exotic weapon proficiency.
I'm just not seeing where the sword grows between the two uses, or where it's trying to be wielded one handed.
The weapon is hardly unbalancing, so I wouldn't sweat it. Technically with that ruling it would be usable even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, you'd just suffer a -6 to hit with it (-2 size, -4 non proficiency, it's only a two handed weapon)
(Thanks for doing that I appreciate it)
The Weapon is listed as one handed, exotic. The weapon is an Exotic 1 handed weapon with special rules attached to it, using it two handed does NOT change its size. If it did, then using a Longsword two handed would make it a two handed sized weapon as well.
Unusable at all seems a bit too hars to me, it might just become a large sized improvised weapon.
Saying you can't use it at all is goofy.
It's also a bit hazy because the wording implies that the moment a bastard sword is wielded 2 handed it becomes Martial... which is NOT precluded by increasing the size, or dependent upon it.
I think we're getting caught up on the size of the weapon. I don't believe that the weapon's physical size magically changes depending on wether or not you hold it in two hands.
Let's look at the rules logic on this one.
1. The weapon is listed as a One Handed weapon on the weapon charts (delineating it's size).
2. A special rule states that when you wield it with two hands it's considered martial.
3. A special rule states that it cannot be wielded one handed without an exotic weapon proficiency.
I'm just not seeing where the sword grows between the two uses, or where it's trying to be wielded one handed.
The weapon is hardly unbalancing, so I wouldn't sweat it. Technically with that ruling it would be usable even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, you'd just suffer a -6 to hit with it (-2 size, -4 non proficiency, it's only a two handed weapon)
1. It is only one-handed if you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). Otherwise it is considered a two-handed weapon for your class.
2. The paragraph it talks about becoming martial is ONLY specifying for your appropriate size category. Because a large Bastard Sword is not a one-handed weapon for a medium creature who has EWP (Bastard Sword), it is a two-handed weapon at that point. Which means it is a size category up from being a two-handed weapon from folks without the feat, thus the mechanics follow the rules laid out on p. 144 as already quoted by The Grandfather.
3. The rule for it not being able to wielded one handed without the feat is listed in the text for the Bastard Sword on p. 149. It states its only one-handed for folks with EWP...
1. The rules don't support that. They state that it is a 1 handed exotic weapon with a special rule that allows it to be used as a martial weapon when wielded in two hands...right? Otherwise it would be listed as a 2 Two handed Martial weapon with a rule that stated that it could be used as a one handed weapon with an exotic weapon feat.
2. The rules paragraph doesn't indicate a change in the weapons size relative to the wielder. It still remains a one handed sized weapon.
3. See 1. partially. Also, if the size of the weapon really DOES change, then it needs to be listed twice on the weapon charts. I fully understand where you're coming from and what you're saying, I'm just not sure that the rules really support it? A large Bastard Sword is STILL a large one handed weapon and should be able to be wielded in two hands as a martial weapon.
As this looks like a split basically 50/50 for a ruling, can we get someone official to have a say? I see both sides, but would like to "know" how to officially rule this one!
Pretty please:)
Tiamack
That would be great. I'd love to know, and it's interesting to see how the mechanics play out.
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(Thanks for doing that I appreciate it)
The Weapon is listed as one handed, exotic. The weapon is an Exotic 1 handed weapon with special rules attached to it, using it two handed does NOT change its size. If it did, then using a Longsword two handed would make it a two handed sized weapon as well.
False. It is ONLY one-handed if you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). That is the ONLY way it is considered one-handed, meaning for everyone else it is a two-handed weapon. Point out all day that it says 'one-handed exotic' and then I will point you to the text that states its only one-handed for those with the prerequisite feat. And if you want to dispute this, the special text of the Bastard Sword already implies its large size within the descreption. For all characters without that proficiency, it is considered two-handed.
At this point, the mechanics for a character wielding a large Bastard Sword without Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it falls to the layout of weapons under the Inappropriately Sized Weapons mechanic on page 144 of the Core Rulebook. The increase in size would take a two-handed weapon and make it something beyond two-handed. This is why you no one can wield a Large Greatsword.
It's fine if you disagree, I just invite you to never sit at my table and try to use this because I will not allow it (Unless some official ruling comes out saying you can do that. Until then, take the feat or find some other way around it - and this is one more way besides the feat.).
(Thanks for doing that I appreciate it)
The Weapon is listed as one handed, exotic. The weapon is an Exotic 1 handed weapon with special rules attached to it, using it two handed does NOT change its size. If it did, then using a Longsword two handed would make it a two handed sized weapon as well.
False. It is ONLY one-handed if you have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword). That is the ONLY way it is considered one-handed, meaning for everyone else it is a two-handed weapon. Point out all day that it says 'one-handed exotic' and then I will point you to the text that states its only one-handed for those with the prerequisite feat. And if you want to dispute this, the special text of the Bastard Sword already implies its large size within the descreption. For all characters without that proficiency, it is considered two-handed.
At this point, the mechanics for a character wielding a large Bastard Sword without Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it falls to the layout of weapons under the Inappropriately Sized Weapons mechanic on page 144 of the Core Rulebook. The increase in size would take a two-handed weapon and make it something beyond two-handed. This is why you no one can wield a Large Greatsword.
It's fine if you disagree, I just invite you to never sit at my table and try to use this because I will not allow it.
I was just looking at the wording of the rules. By that logic a large Bastard Sword is unwieldable regardless of proficiency or NOT as the proficiency only allows you to use the regularly sized Bastard sword in one hand, and wouldn't apply to the use of it as a martial large two handed weapon at all. If the weapon's native size is two handed then it immediately becomes too large to use.
That's obviously not the case. (Amiri uses it)
Has anyone looked at her stat block to see if she has the proficiency? That might give us a better answer.
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I was just looking at the wording of the rules. By that logic a large Bastard Sword is unwieldable regardless of proficiency or NOT as the proficiency only allows you to use the regularly sized Bastard sword in one hand, and wouldn't apply to the use of it as a martial large two handed weapon at all. If the weapon's native size is two handed then it immediately becomes too large to use.
The question here is not one of proficiency, it is one of appropriate-sizedness. You must remember that proficiency is unrelated to appropriate-sizedness, despite the fact that the bastard sword blurs this line somewhat.
1) A bastard sword requires two hands to wield. A large-sized bastard sword would require more effort than two hands can provide, thus it is unwieldable.
2) The Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat changes the effort required to wield a bastard sword from two-handed to one-handed. Once that change in effort is made, the large-sized sword becomes available as a two-handed weapon.
Has anyone looked at her stat block to see if she has the proficiency? That might give us a better answer.
She does, I checked.
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I am confused. Why is there such division on how this handles? It's always seemed 100% clear to me.
A bastard sword is one-handed with EWP, or two-handed without.
A large bastard sword wielded by a medium creature would be two-handed with EWP and a -2 penalty (one step up) or impossible without.
They need the feat if they want to wield large bastard swords.
I am confused. Why is there such division on how this handles? It's always seemed 100% clear to me.
A bastard sword is one-handed with EWP, or two-handed without.
A large bastard sword wielded by a medium creature would be two-handed with EWP and a -2 penalty (one step up) or impossible without.
They need the feat if they want to wield large bastard swords.
It seems 100% clear to me too, but I heard there was a statblock with the barbarian chick wielding a large bastardsword, why doesnt somebody look that statblock up and see what it says.
Just to chime in here, actually anyone can wield a bas. sword one handed, regardless of feats, as it is a one handed weapon. However, anyone without the exotic weapon proficiency in bas. sword would be taking a -4 non-proficiency penalty on the attack rolls, just like any other non-proficient wielder with any other weapon.
The same should be in regards to the large sword. A medium character wielding a large one handed weapon takes a -2 penalty and must use two hands. A medium character wielding a large one handed weapon that they are not proficient with would take a -6 penalty (-2 wrong size, -4 non-proficient).
The size of the weapon doesn't change in regards to the character wielding it based on the feat. However, the skill with which one can wield it does.
Just my interpretation of this situation.
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Hmmm... by the wording here...
Heirloom weapon grants proficiency with a given weapon. Does this count as "EWP" for purposes of this bypass? Just curious; by strict wording it seems not, though it'd make sense that anything that makes you truly proficient would do it. Thoughts?
My interpretation of that is that it does grant Weapon Proficiency (Of that one weapon, for only that one weapon). When your weapon breaks or you lose it, and you get the exact same weapon, you no longer get WP because that proficiency was only tied to the weapon which was handed down by your family.
The Heirloom Trait with that specific weapon or having EWP are the only 2 ways I see to allow you to wield a Large Bastard Sword.
Just to chime in here, actually anyone can wield a bas. sword one handed, regardless of feats, as it is a one handed weapon. However, anyone without the exotic weapon proficiency in bas. sword would be taking a -4 non-proficiency penalty on the attack rolls, just like any other non-proficient wielder with any other weapon.
The same should be in regards to the large sword. A medium character wielding a large one handed weapon takes a -2 penalty and must use two hands. A medium character wielding a large one handed weapon that they are not proficient with would take a -6 penalty (-2 wrong size, -4 non-proficient).
The size of the weapon doesn't change in regards to the character wielding it based on the feat. However, the skill with which one can wield it does.
Just my interpretation of this situation.
yea I agree with that
Hmmm... by the wording here...
Heirloom weapon grants proficiency with a given weapon. Does this count as "EWP" for purposes of this bypass? Just curious; by strict wording it seems not, though it'd make sense that anything that makes you truly proficient would do it. Thoughts?
My interpretation of that is that it does grant Weapon Proficiency (Of that one weapon, for only that one weapon). When your weapon breaks or you lose it, and you get the exact same weapon, you no longer get WP because that proficiency was only tied to the weapon which was handed down by your family.
The Heirloom Trait with that specific weapon or having EWP are the only 2 ways I see to allow you to wield a Large Bastard Sword.
That might explain why it is so abundant in pathfinder society, but I agree it would be only with that specific weapon, it should not be better than a feat (obviously).
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It's normally a 2 handed weapon. If you increase the size without the feat it goes from two handed to too big to use at all.
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the Bastard Sword (size medium) is a two-handed martial weapon, or one-handed exotic weapon for a medium size character. The Bastard Sword (size large) is a too-big-to-wield martial weapon or two-handed exotic weapon for a medium size character (who suffers a -2 size penalty to his attack rolls with it).
Mechanically, it's 1 feat + -2 attacks = +2 average damage; half to 1/3 the benefit of power attack, and not really worth doing.
Role-play-wise, it's really cool and completely legit; the Iconic Female Barbarian glaring at you with her toned and exposed belly from the Barbarian class section is using a Size Large Bastard Sword; she has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) feat, she can only use it in two hands, and he suffers a -2 penalty to her attacks. And she is hardcore.
It's normally a 2 handed weapon. If you increase the size without the feat it goes from two handed to too big to use at all.+1
the Bastard Sword (size medium) is a two-handed martial weapon, or one-handed exotic weapon for a medium size character. The Bastard Sword (size large) is a too-big-to-wield martial weapon or two-handed exotic weapon for a medium size character (who suffers a -2 size penalty to his attack rolls with it).
Mechanically, it's 1 feat + -2 attacks = +2 average damage; half to 1/3 the benefit of power attack, and not really worth doing.
Role-play-wise, it's really cool and completely legit; the Iconic Female Barbarian glaring at you with her toned and exposed belly from the Barbarian class section is using a Size Large Bastard Sword; she has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) feat, she can only use it in two hands, and he suffers a -2 penalty to her attacks. And she is hardcore.
You forget though even if someone is not proficient in single handed use of the bastard sword they can still wield it with a non-proficiency penalty of -4, make that sword Large and they have to wield it in two hands with an additional -2 penalty for size. (total -6)
possible yes, better to just take the exotic weapon proficiency if you want to hit anything with a decent Armor Class.
I also have to say you can't compare every single feat to power attack, because the feats stack with power attack, if you have to choose.. sure power attack wins easily. For the people that want to hit as hard as possible when they hit they might like this option, and might actually be worthwhile if you use the vital strike chain too.
the Bastard Sword (size medium) is a two-handed martial weapon,
So a wizard, cleric, bard, etc. can wield a bastard sword in two hands at -4 non-proficiency penalty.
or one-handed exotic weapon for a medium size character.
And, the same wizard, cleric, bard, etc. can wield the exotic weapon in one hand at a -4 non-proficiency penalty.
The Bastard Sword (size large) is a too-big-to-wield martial weapon
It is too big to wield via the martial weapon proficiency, but can still be wielded as a two handed weapon by a medium character with the non-proficiency penalty of -4 and the wrong size penalty of -2.
or two-handed exotic weapon for a medium size character (who suffers a -2 size penalty to his attack rolls with it).
The proficient wielder can use two hands to wield the weapon with the -2 size penalty. The non-proficient wielder can wield it with the -4 and -2 penalties.
Mechanically, it's 1 feat + -2 attacks = +2 average damage; half to 1/3 the benefit of power attack, and not really worth doing.
Role-play-wise, it's really cool and completely legit; the Iconic Female Barbarian glaring at you with her toned and exposed belly from the Barbarian class section is using a Size Large Bastard Sword; she has the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) feat, she can only use it in two hands, and he suffers a -2 penalty to her attacks. And she is hardcore.
Amen to this. Power attack is the better benefit mechanically, but this looks cool.
Edit:And, I apologize if any of this seems snarky/curt, it was not written with such feeling. I just see this as looking too close at the exception built into the weapon, than the weapon itself.
ya sure the wizard/cleric/bard with no BAB lvl 1 can take a -4 penalty to wield a bastard sword with no proficiency be my guest. He can even take the feat and use a large version with a -6 if he wants I don't care cause he isn't gonna be alive for very long anyway.
So a wizard, cleric, bard, etc. can wield a bastard sword in two hands at -4 non-proficiency penalty.
The point was he does not have to take a feat to wield it with a -6 penalty ;)
The point was he does not have to take a feat to wield it with a -6 penalty ;)ya sure the wizard/cleric/bard with no BAB lvl 1 can take a -4 penalty to wield a bastard sword with no proficiency be my guest. He can even take the feat and use a large version with a -6 if he wants I don't care cause he isn't gonna be alive for very long anyway.
So a wizard, cleric, bard, etc. can wield a bastard sword in two hands at -4 non-proficiency penalty.
Yeah, it's a very ineffective choice. I'm making no argument for that.
I'm just saying it is possible to do.
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The whole Power Attack comparison is kind of pointless anyhow. If you could only ever take one feat, maybe it'd have more merit. As it is, the benefit of some of these feats that don't *seem* as good as Power Attack is that they work with it. Power Attack is the best one to start with, sure, but getting the better weapon, the Weapon Specialization, and other feats that boost it all help.
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I think the power attack comparison is relevant, if only to point out often power attack is actually better off not being used. But if you've invested Heirloom Weapon in a large bastard sword, you are swinging that sucker every time. And the opponents AC and your average output has to be REALLY low to trade 1 to hit for 1 damage. In fact, on the olympic page is a "1 to hit = x damage" note.
So again, it's fine to let it be :).
The bigger issue for me is the legitimate size of the weapon. It has to have a standard size, and if that size is 2 handed then a large Bastard Sword can't be wielded by ANYONE. The size increase of the weapon from 2 handed to large 2 handed precludes use of it by anyone. If it's truly a 2 handed sword that a feat allows you to use one handed, then the feat would clearly not affect it when it's size is increased.
Either the weapon is a 1 handed exotic with a special rule attached to it (which works in the existing rules framework) OR it's a two handed weapon with a special rule attached to it and can't be wielded large even with a proficiency feat (clearly NOT the case as one of the exotics uses it).
I think the RIGHT answer is that the 1 handed exotic bastard sword CAN be used large without the feat with the standard nonproficiency penalty, NOT that the weapon magically grows so large that a medium creature CAN'T wield it.
The rules don't support the use of the weapon AT ALL if it's a two handed sized weapon....right?
Edit - Sniggevert has the right idea.
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.
Sword, Bastard is listed as a onehanded exotic weapon, with the above text clarifying why it's listed as so.
It also says it's only a martial weapon if wielded in two hands, ergo with out the EWP feat, it's a two hand martial weapon.This is for a medium creature using a medium bastard sword.
When it's a large sized bastard sword, it's still a large sized one handed exotic for a large creature. If said large creature does not have the EWP feat, it's a 2 hand martial for a large creature.
If a medium creature has the EWP feat, he treats the large bastard sword as a large one-handed sword, which means he can use it as a 2 handed weapon, albeit at a -2 to hit. If the medium creature does not have that feat, it is treated as a large two hander, and is unuseable, as per RAW, due to it's size.
This isn't my opinion. This is the logical application of the appropriate rules.
Sword, Bastard: A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.Sword, Bastard is listed as a onehanded exotic weapon, with the above text clarifying why it's listed as so.
It also says it's only a martial weapon if wielded in two hands, ergo with out the EWP feat, it's a two hand martial weapon.
This is for a medium creature using a medium bastard sword.
When it's a large sized bastard sword, it's still a large sized one handed exotic for a large creature. If said large creature does not have the EWP feat, it's a 2 hand martial for a large creature.
If a medium creature has the EWP feat, he treats the large bastard sword as a large one-handed sword, which means he can use it as a 2 handed weapon, albeit at a -2 to hit. If the medium creature does not have that feat, it is treated as a large two hander, and is unuseable, as per RAW, due to it's size.
This isn't my opinion. This is the logical application of the appropriate rules.
OK, how about this, let's look at it a little differently. Ignore the bastard sword, since it has extra language that allows it to be used easier than most exotic weapons. Let's take a look at the falcata, it's a one handed exotic weapon, just like a bastard sword, but it does not have the bonus ability to be wielded easier in 2 hands.
Now a medium creature can use a medium version of the falcata in 1 or 2 hands. If they have the exotic weapon proficiency in falcata, then they take no penalties to use the weapon either 1 or 2 handed. If they do not, they take a -4 non-proficiency penalty, regardless of whether it's wielded in 1 or 2 hands.
Continuing the exercise, the same medium creature finds a large falcata. As a 1 handed weapon, it can be wielded in 2 hands by creature one size smaller at a -2 penalty. If the person does not have the proficiency in the weapon this jumps to a -6 (-2 for size, and -4 for proficiency), though it still needs to be wielded in 2 hands.
The bastard sword would follow the same path. Just because a person does not have the exotic weapon proficiency in it, it doesn't suddenly become too large to use at all. It's just too large to use proficiently w/out the actual exotic weapon feat.
In my opinion, this is what RAW is stating for weapon proficiencies and sizing.
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BTW, the dwarven waraxe follows this same logic, for non-dwarves...EWP+large size=use two-handed at -2 to atk and 2d8 damage, and you have a x3 critical.
For dwarves, it is always a martial one-hand weapon, so you could use a large one, without having to take the feat and still have the same -2/2d8 combo. Could make it an even better choice than a bastard sword (at least for a dwarf). So a PFS dwarven fighter with heirloom weapon, weapon focus, and power attack is very effective. The weapon trait offsets half of the inappropriate size penalty. Add Furious Focus at level two and s/he's really nice.
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Stuff
It's the extra language that is important. The Falcata isn't being described as being a large 4 ft. weapon in it's own text. It doesn't have the two-handed martial text.
Anyway, I think the stat block of Amiri goes a long way towards proving you need either Heirloom or EWP (BS) to wield a large bastard sword. Why else would she be designed that way?
OK, how about this, let's look at it a little differently. Ignore the bastard sword, since it has extra language that allows it to be used easier than most exotic weapons. Let's take a look at the falcata, it's a one handed exotic weapon, just like a bastard sword, but it does not have the bonus ability to be wielded easier in 2 hands.
Now a medium creature can use a medium version of the falcata in 1 or 2 hands. If they have the exotic weapon proficiency in falcata, then they take no penalties to use the weapon either 1 or 2 handed. If they do not, they take a -4 non-proficiency penalty, regardless of whether it's wielded in 1 or 2 hands.
Continuing the exercise, the same medium creature finds a large falcata. As a 1 handed weapon, it can be wielded in 2 hands by creature one size smaller at a -2 penalty. If the person does not have the proficiency in...
100% correct. For a falcata, not for a bastard sword.
StuffIt's the extra language that is important. The Falcata isn't being described as being a large 4 ft. weapon in it's own text. It doesn't have the two-handed martial text.
Anyway, I think the stat block of Amiri goes a long way towards proving you need either Heirloom or EWP (BS) to wield a large bastard sword. Why else would she be designed that way?
So that they only had to build in a -2 penalty to attack, rather than a -6?
If a medium character can wield a weapon proficiently, then a medium character can also wield the weapon non-proficiently. I'm not saying it's prudent, wise, smart, etc. to do so, I'm just saying it can be done.
100% correct. For a falcata, not for a bastard sword.
<boggles>They're both ONE handed exotic weapons. Honestly, they are.</boggle>
<boggles>They're both ONE handed exotic weapons. Honestly, they are.</boggle>100% correct. For a falcata, not for a bastard sword.
Is a falcata treated as a 2H martial with no EWP?