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So, the GM no longer has any guidance on the content of treasure, nor is the value of that treasure based directly on the monsters encountered, but on the difficulty of the encounter relative to average party level?
I went to put together treasure for my PCs last night and kept thinking I was missing a table or two somewhere. I found Table 12-5: 9th L party, not normally on the Fast track but it was a difficult encounter so I'll use that column: 6400gp. Okay. 6400gp worth of what? What are the chances for a minor magic item?
Also, what constitutes an "encounter" for these purposes? Over the course of the evening there were three separate combats, but they all took place within a single cave-complex ogre stronghold. The PCs wouldn't get 6400gp for each of the three in any case, since the three combats had different levels of difficulty, but does "per encounter" mean they should have expected some loot each time?
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6400gp worth of what?
Copper coins. The exchange would be 6,400 gp for 640,000 cp. And 50 coins equal a pound. So they find 12,800 lbs of copper caoinage. They can have fun hauling it away...
EDIT: I did this to a group once, but it was only 100,000 cp collected by a copper dragon
Copper coins. The exchange would be 6,400 gp for 640,000 cp. And 50 coins equal a pound. So they find 12,800 lbs of copper coinage. They can have fun hauling it away...
EDIT: I did this to a group once, but it was only 100,000 cp collected by a copper dragon
Unhelpful but highly amusing. That would've been especially troublesome for this group since I think they have a single (Type I) bag of holding between them, they have no access to teleportation, despite the party all being 9th/10th level, and their mounts are a four day hike away once they get down off the mountain. :)
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My group keeps track of all loot and item splits, so I toss them treasure I think will be useful to the group. I try to give out items that fit the theme of the creature if possible. And for humanoids I put gear or items appropriate to the creature. When it comes to magic items, I never use random tables. I actually help my players by giving them what I think would help with their play style.
I use the treasure hoard basically.
I always find myself using the the random loot chart in the 3.5 DMG and then compare to the PFRPG loot chart to see if I'm in the neighborhood. It typically stays in balance.
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When it comes to magic items, I never use random tables. I actually help my players by giving them what I think would help with their play style.
I use the treasure hoard basically.
Yeah, the treasure hoard link is basically Table 12-5, which I referenced to get the 6400gp total.
As a GM I'm more likely to select a magic item than randomly roll one for treasure, because as a player there is nothing I find more frustrating than running across my 17th set of +1 studded leather armor or my 29th +1 longsword. Selecting items also allows me to introduce a lot of 3rd party items that fit the individual PCs particularly well.
But all previous editions of the game told me, if only by random die roll, when one or more magic items should be present, and after 30+ years I'm used to that.
I'm also used to the idea that the monster has what treasure it has without regard for who happens to come along and kill it, and it seems odd that the GP value of that loot should scale up or down based on party level. The dragon had a hoard worth 6000gp if he was bested by a 6th L party, but the same dragon's hoard shrinks to 4000gp if he's taken out by a 9th L party? Weird.
(Those numbers are fabricated for illustrative purposes only and do not reflect actual values on Table 12-5.)
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The assumption is that you will be pitting the PCs against level appropriate challenges. Tougher encounters should bonus the treasure. If you want to figure the treasure by the monster, use the monster's CR as the appropriate APL.
If the party has 3 encounters that should yield 6,400 GP for each, they should be rewarded with treasure worth approximately 19,200 GP. You can sprinkle it in small amounts or provide it as one large horde.
On page 401 of the Pathfinder RPG, there is a cost chart for magic item rolls as part of a treasure. Each minor magic item roll costs 1,000 GP from the total value. Each medium magic item roll costs 10,000 GP and each major magic item roll costs 40,000.
There are also expanded charts found in the Gammastery Guide starting on page 118. They include expanded armor and weapon charts. There are also random potion, scroll and wand lists.
6400gp worth of what?Copper coins. The exchange would be 6,400 gp for 640,000 cp. And 50 coins equal a pound. So they find 12,800 lbs of copper caoinage. They can have fun hauling it away...
EDIT: I did this to a group once, but it was only 100,000 cp collected by a copper dragon
LOL, I did something similar. Had a 1st level party who found an old pirate treasure chamber, guarded by a champion pirate skeleton who was cursed to guard his treasure. However, he'd been slowly wittled away as the treasure was stolen by successive people. By the time the first level guys encountered him, he was just a CR 3 skeleton. He couldn't be permakilled, he started rattling back together after death. They finally threw all his bones on the other side of a pit trap, so he couldn't get at them while they looted the treasure horde.
Funny thing was, there was a Magic Circle vs Good on the treasure, and the first character to go after the treasure was a good oracle. He got messed up, and everyone else got scared of approaching.
There was a throne with a pile of copper coins on it. 100,000 coppers, 2,500 silvers, and 200 gold, and about 300 gp in small 25gp gems all mixed up together. They also found 20 silver ingots in the bottom of an old chest, a masterwork carpentry kit, and a masterwork fishing kit. :)
I think they finally got 1800 silver coins, 150 gold, and left the copper for the next group. They took the ingots, kits, and 6 or 7 gems they found. It was hilarious all the different ways they tried to think of to carry away half a ton of copper on two long boats. :)
When it comes to magic items, I never use random tables. I actually help my players by giving them what I think would help with their play style.
I use the treasure hoard basically.
Yeah, the treasure hoard link is basically Table 12-5, which I referenced to get the 6400gp total.
As a GM I'm more likely to select a magic item than randomly roll one for treasure, because as a player there is nothing I find more frustrating than running across my 17th set of +1 studded leather armor or my 29th +1 longsword. Selecting items also allows me to introduce a lot of 3rd party items that fit the individual PCs particularly well.
But all previous editions of the game told me, if only by random die roll, when one or more magic items should be present, and after 30+ years I'm used to that.
I'm also used to the idea that the monster has what treasure it has without regard for who happens to come along and kill it, and it seems odd that the GP value of that loot should scale up or down based on party level. The dragon had a hoard worth 6000gp if he was bested by a 6th L party, but the same dragon's hoard shrinks to 4000gp if he's taken out by a 9th L party? Weird.
(Those numbers are fabricated for illustrative purposes only and do not reflect actual values on Table 12-5.)
I've never used that method. Pathfinder seems to have gotten rid of it too, at least somewhat, by setting XP values in stone, rather than having them based on APL. In my games, I simply switch the "APL" on Table 12-5 to "GCR" (or "group challenge rating") and assign gear based on that. It works out to basically the same, except that a CR 9 encounter will always award the same treasure, no matter how high or low the level of the PCs are. Just factor this change into the WBL guidelines (which my groups adheres to pretty strictly).
I do, as you seem to want to do, and make sure to supply various magic items and such into my encounters' treasure. Also, if an enemy could use the item, I make sure it uses the item. You aren't going to kill a monster that has a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor in its treasure without having to have overcome that additional boost in AC. It takes a little more time, but I set up all my potential combats days before the session anyway, so it's not too big of a deal. For fights with true monsters, I tend to have the players stumble across other dead adventurers or slightly over-gear the next set of baddies.
As far as determining what magic items to include, I tend to make sure that first the foe has the right gear to do his job. This might mean that the party is going to once again find a +1 longsword or +2 studded leather. In a recent game, my party was handing out +1 shocking tridents to anyone that gave them information because the clan of Skum they just killed were all armed with them. Then, once the bad guys are properly geared, I start looking for fun things on the wondrous item table. I see how much gold I've got left and then roll some dice (actually, I use a generator on my computer, but the concept is the same). I roll a d8 to see which category to look in (1-potion, 2-ring, 3-rod, 4-scroll, 5-staff, 6-wand, 7,8-wondrous; if a category doesn't make sense, I make that number also result in a wondrous item) and then find the highest priced item that fits into the budget left. It's a simple system, and it saves me from having to suddenly explain why the hobgoblin ranger has a +1 longsword and a +1 battle axe though he only used the sword in combat, or why he suddenly has a +2 cloak of resistance but failed all those saves earlier.
I also tend to just pass out gems. My players have learned to value a 2000 gp diamond over a +1 longsword. Gems are a commodity almost anywhere, and so having them makes buying that teleport much easier. Also, I like (and my players like) more lethal games, so big valuable diamonds make getting that raise dead much easier. I've also got a player who has begun to collect art, so I like to put little statuettes and such in hordes when it's appropriate.
I also don't worry too much about over-gearing the party. We tend to have gaps between adventures where the characters return home or go out a-wenching or whatever. Whenever the party is going to be out of combat for more than a day or two, I ask them to adjust their current gear to the WBL guidelines. If they are over, then we come up with something they had to pay for or a story about how it got stolen or some such. If they are under, then they get a little boon from a benefactor or they do a little off-camera side quest to catch up.
I also tend to apply this rule to anything with treasure.
Table: Character Wealth by Level can also be used to budget gear for characters starting above 1st level, such as a new character created to replace a dead one. Characters should spend no more than half their total wealth on any single item. For a balanced approach, PCs that are built after 1st level should spend no more than 25% of their wealth on weapons, 25% on armor and protective devices, 25% on other magic items, 15% on disposable items like potions, scrolls, and wands, and 10% on ordinary gear and coins. Different character types might spend their wealth differently than these percentages suggest; for example, arcane casters might spend very little on weapons but a great deal more on other magic items and disposable items.
My players aren't forced to follow this, but I keep it in line for all my NPCs. That 40% on "other magic items" and "disposable items" combined tends to result in some of the random gear from above. I pass out the "big six" (weapon, armor, amulet of natural armor, ring of protection, cloak of resistance and belt/headband of stat boosting) and then toss in some fun baubles afterwards. My players know to expect to find these items, and they know that I expect them to have them too, and balance encounters around that.
tl;dr - Reread the first paragraph I wrote, and then just give out what you feel appropriate.
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I think they finally got 1800 silver coins, 150 gold, and left the copper for the next group. They took the ingots, kits, and 6 or 7 gems they found. It was hilarious all the different ways they tried to think of to carry away half a ton of copper on two long boats. :)
We were greedy and level 1. What did you expect?!
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The assumption is that you will be pitting the PCs against level appropriate challenges. Tougher encounters should bonus the treasure. If you want to figure the treasure by the monster, use the monster's CR as the appropriate APL.
If the party has 3 encounters that should yield 6,400 GP for each, they should be rewarded with treasure worth approximately 19,200 GP. You can sprinkle it in small amounts or provide it as one large horde.
On page 401 of the Pathfinder RPG, there is a cost chart for magic item rolls as part of a treasure. Each minor magic item roll costs 1,000 GP from the total value. Each medium magic item roll costs 10,000 GP and each major magic item roll costs 40,000.
There are also expanded charts found in the Gammastery Guide starting on page 118. They include expanded armor and weapon charts. There are also random potion, scroll and wand lists.
+1
Also remember that even though some monsters and traps have no treasure or incidental treasure the encounter still must be counter elswhere. Most intelligent NPC's have 3 time the normal APL treasure so one NPC makes up for a couple slimes and a trap.
Adding in magic items via the 1k, 10k, 40k generic treasure buy out works great. I love the GMG tables, but definitely customize the loot at the end of significant Plot arcs when you'd normally provide an ad hoc Story based XP award.
--Vrock Crystal Goblets worth 1,000gp each!
I've rarely used any sort of random treasure generator. Maybe never even. I also don't pay much attention to the loot tables or loot guidelines.
In general my worlds have treasure that seems to fit the milieu, at least as I want it to be. In some cases that means some encounters have no treasure at all. Some have wild payoffs. It just all depends on the circumstances.
Typically my NPCs will have items that make sense for them to have, and if the party kills them in combat, they generally are able to loot them and get their stuff. Not always, sometimes there is local law enforcement to deal with. Other times there might be story hooks to return items to an heir or to a powerful family.
I also make up lots of custom magic items. In a world of magic there are lots of things that make sense to me that some magic item crafter would have obviously made by now, and that others would have copied. Many of them have no obvious use outside of their narrow purpose, but I'm always pleased when a player figures out some clever way to use them in unusual circumstances. I especially like to come up with enchantments for items that are commonly used, but generally ignored, such as a restful sleeping bag which enhances overnight healing. Or soap which enhances charisma. Or eating utensils which detect poison. Or pipes that grant wisdom bonuses while smoking rare tobacco. I once gave a character a hat that could be used as a ranged weapon. Took him forever to figure out what it did. Most of these are either low impact or duplicate an existing effect that I believe is more boring. Many of them are deliberately designed to increase immersiveness and role playing. Some work on charges and others are triggered by materials I control as the DM.
Mostly I try to control character power, not treasure quantity or worth. Even if they have a literal ton of gold, what they can buy with it depends on where they are, and whether they can keep it.