Drow Nobles as PCs?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Rapthorn2ndform wrote:
Are wrote:


To get the stat adjustments of any monster, subtract 10 from the even scores and 11 from the odd scores.

doesnt quite work

and if i bring it up to a GM i'd like to be sure of the scaling

How doesn't it work? That's the way it is :)

Example (in case I wasn't clear earlier): The Centaur has STR 15, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 11, WIS 14, CHA 12. Subtracting 10/11 provides the following stat adjustments: STR +4, DEX +4, CON +4, INT +0, WIS +4, CHA +2.

The only monsters for which that isn't accurate is for those that already have class levels (since those automatically get the nonelite or elite arrays, which produce higher stats).


Are wrote:
Rapthorn2ndform wrote:
Are wrote:


To get the stat adjustments of any monster, subtract 10 from the even scores and 11 from the odd scores.

doesnt quite work

and if i bring it up to a GM i'd like to be sure of the scaling
How doesn't it work? That's the way it is :)

There's some corner cases. For example, an animal should always have a 1 or 2 in intelligence; it's not just a -8 intelligence adjustment. This is relevant if you're, for example, using the Advanced template. Or if you're of the opinion that you can add class levels to an animal; don't know if that's against the RAW, haven't ever had an interest in doing it.

Contributor

Letting someone play a drow noble is fine so long as you let other players play other things similarly broken and whacky. Give the tiefling a few extra findish perks, declare the human either the product of Hermean eugenics or someone they really want to recruit, give the gnome some extra special First World powers and so on.

Or turn the persecution factor up to 11 with the drow noble having to deal with surface dwellers who hate all drow, especially the nobles, and drow assassins sent by the other drow noble families who have decided that either they need to take care of an embarrassment, it is wisest to take out a rival while he is vulnerable, and/or belief that he is on some quest for his drow noble family in guise of a black (white) sheep and killing him now is the surest way to keep that family from obtaining the artifact of doom and taking over.

The idea that he's a Drizzt clone? That's the most unspeakable thing to the drow. All of those must be killed.

He's also gotten on the derro's "to be kidnapped" list if just because he's a Darkland's dweller who keeps skipping across the surface world and the derro want to find out what it is in drow eugenics that lets him do that.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
The idea that he's a Drizzt clone? That's the most unspeakable thing to the drow. All of those must be killed.

From what I've read on Golarian Drow, this will not happen.

Elves that become too evil, twisted in a certain way, become drow. I would assume that the reverse is true and that any Drizzt like drow would turn back into a surface/regular elf.


Mistwalker wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
The idea that he's a Drizzt clone? That's the most unspeakable thing to the drow. All of those must be killed.

From what I've read on Golarian Drow, this will not happen.

Elves that become too evil, twisted in a certain way, become drow. I would assume that the reverse is true and that any Drizzt like drow would turn back into a surface/regular elf.

The official line, IIRC, is that this is up to the GM. I think you have it right in your description, but there will never be a good Drow NPC in any paizo product (unless they break their promise!).

However, people can and should play "the only good drow" if they want to and the GM is in favor of it.

Contributor

Well, Drizzt is product identity for another company, so Paizo is not going there. However, I am utterly certain that many of the players already are, as what you do in your home games is your business.

Having a drow turn good is no further away than your nearest Helm of Opposite Alignment, and if turning good causes an immediate pigmentation switch, I think I've got a highly entertaining entry for the next derro mad science fair.

It would be even more entertaining if you could build a helm of opposite alignment with a toggle switch, though of course the temptation would be to jiggle it back and forth while the elf's skin strobes back and forth and their mind scrambles with conflicting urges. Not that the derro would have any compunctions about doing this. In fact, they'd probably think it was a fun thing to let other derro play with at the exhibit.


Vayleen wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Call me old fashioned, but it gets me a little bit riled up that a player would be reading the Bestiary in enough detail to get the impression he can pick races from there. It's GM book, end of story. Unless this guy is running a game of his own, he oughtn't to be reading it at all.
You are forgetting, perhaps, that people playing wizards with specialization in conjuring and other assorted classes may NEED to be familiar with the beastiary so that they can summon their monsters? Of course they should only be looking at the monsters in their spell lists...

Completely disagree. Just because you know a summoning spell you should know all the stats in the Bestiary for every single one of those critters? That's metagaming to the max. This is knowledge that they should either have to learn by experience (summon something and observe it), or by investing in appropriate knowledge skills. Even then, there's no need for them to know the actual numbers, which are completely game concepts, but they should know what it looksd like, how fast it moves, roughly how strong it is, any special abilities they have seen it use or read about, etc.

Of course, many GMs will find it convenient to, once a player has summoned something, reveal the stats to the player so they can run it, themselves.

However, if a player says they want to cast a monster summoning spell so can I please hand over the Bestiary so they can look at all the options to make the best choice, I laugh in his face. First off, I tell them they have six seconds or less to make the choice, as that is how long a round takes, so there's no time. Second, unless their character has some possible way to know a creature's stats and abilities, they just have to take their bext guess, see how it works out and learn by doing.

Of course, I can't prevent people from buying their own Bestiary and reading it on their own time. I do try to keep people from using this knowledge unless they have invested in the apppropriate skills or acquired it through character experience, though.


Brian Bachman wrote:
However, if a player says they want to cast a monster summoning spell so can I please hand over the Bestiary so they can look at all the options to make the best choice, I laugh in his face. First off, I tell them they have six seconds or less to make the choice, as that is how long a round takes, so there's no time. Second, unless their character has some possible way to know a creature's stats and abilities, they just have to take their bext guess, see how it works out and learn by doing.

Or be taught it when they learn the summoning spell (for learned classes, at least)?


Bobson wrote:
Brian Bachman wrote:
However, if a player says they want to cast a monster summoning spell so can I please hand over the Bestiary so they can look at all the options to make the best choice, I laugh in his face. First off, I tell them they have six seconds or less to make the choice, as that is how long a round takes, so there's no time. Second, unless their character has some possible way to know a creature's stats and abilities, they just have to take their bext guess, see how it works out and learn by doing.
Or be taught it when they learn the summoning spell (for learned classes, at least)?

Or make the appropriate knowledge skill checks...


Brian Bachman wrote:
Completely disagree. Just because you know a summoning spell you should know all the stats in the Bestiary for every single one of those critters? That's metagaming to the max. This is knowledge that they should either have to learn by experience (summon something and observe it), or by investing in appropriate knowledge skills. Even then, there's no need for them to know the actual numbers, which are completely game concepts, but they should know what it looksd like, how fast it moves, roughly how strong it is, any special abilities they have seen it use or read about, etc.

I could see this for a class like sorcerer, or perhaps even the early levels of summoner, but clerics, wizards, druids, and others who have to study a bit, or at least pray are going to take the time to figure out what their options are. Even most spontaneous casters would try to figure out what they could summon, and even if the numbers are strictly an abstraction, they are an abstraction that 90% of casters would know, even if they used different methods of describing it, so it really doesn't hurt to let the player see the numbers that their characters would most likely have knowledge of anyway.

This of course only applies to the generally common summons. Higher level summons of creatures that are virtually never seen on the material plane are another matter entirely.


Bobson wrote:
Brian Bachman wrote:
However, if a player says they want to cast a monster summoning spell so can I please hand over the Bestiary so they can look at all the options to make the best choice, I laugh in his face. First off, I tell them they have six seconds or less to make the choice, as that is how long a round takes, so there's no time. Second, unless their character has some possible way to know a creature's stats and abilities, they just have to take their bext guess, see how it works out and learn by doing.
Or be taught it when they learn the summoning spell (for learned classes, at least)?

Sure, if you have a house rule or setting specific requirement that all PC wizards have to undergo formal training to learn spells. I actually like that kind of system. That's not the assumption or the RAW, however. And how about sorcerers and other spontaneous casters, who don't really "learn" their spells at all?


Kryzbyn wrote:
Bobson wrote:
Brian Bachman wrote:
However, if a player says they want to cast a monster summoning spell so can I please hand over the Bestiary so they can look at all the options to make the best choice, I laugh in his face. First off, I tell them they have six seconds or less to make the choice, as that is how long a round takes, so there's no time. Second, unless their character has some possible way to know a creature's stats and abilities, they just have to take their bext guess, see how it works out and learn by doing.
Or be taught it when they learn the summoning spell (for learned classes, at least)?

Or make the appropriate knowledge skill checks...

If you look back to my original post, I mentioned knowledge checks as a completely legitimate way of acquiring some of this knowledge (but not the whole stat block). Certainly a made skill check would probably give you enough knowledge to make a decent, fairly-informed decision.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Rapthorn2ndform wrote:
Are wrote:
Rapthorn2ndform wrote:

I honestly wish they would have put the stat adjustment for ALL the monsters, not just the player races

To get the stat adjustments of any monster, subtract 10 from the even scores and 11 from the odd scores.

doesnt quite work

and if i bring it up to a GM i'd like to be sure of the scaling

Actually, that's exactly how it works to determine any monster's ability scores. We assume ALL monsters "rolled" three 10s and three 11s, then when they add their racial ability score modifiers, they end up with the scores listed in the Bestiary. Unique monsters (such as those with class levels) should have correspondingly higher scores.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

As for the concept of "good drow..." That's not something we're ever likely to do in print, but that doesn't mean you can't do one in your home campaign. Your GM's the one who gets to make that call in your game, not us.


James Jacobs wrote:
As for the concept of "good drow..." That's not something we're ever likely to do in print, but that doesn't mean you can't do one in your home campaign. Your GM's the one who gets to make that call in your game, not us.

Does that generally apply to all creatures who have traditional alignments (Orcs, Red Dragons, Gargoyles, etc.)?

Note: I'm not looking for a rule here, just a general assumption.


sunshadow21 wrote:

[I could see this for a class like sorcerer, or perhaps even the early levels of summoner, but clerics, wizards, druids, and others who have to study a bit, or at least pray are going to take the time to figure out what their options are. Even most spontaneous casters would try to figure out what they could summon, and even if the numbers are strictly an abstraction, they are an abstraction that 90% of casters would know, even if they used different methods of describing it, so it really doesn't hurt to let the player see the numbers that their characters would most likely have knowledge of anyway.

This of course only applies to the generally common summons. Higher level summons of creatures that are virtually never seen on the material plane are another matter entirely.

Respectfully, but still completely, disagree. This is functionally equivalent to giving your casters free skill ranks in Knowledge Dungeoneering and/or Knowledge The Planes and/or Knowledge Nature and/or other Knowledge skills appropriate for the specific critter. If they want to know this stuff, invest the points in the skills, and even then, that doesn't permit them to look at the entire stat block, it just gives them a bit of useful information, or possibly more than one bit if they roll well enough.

If you want to play that all casters in your world are highly educated and all study this stuff to death at Hogwart's before being released into the world, that is a fun and perhaps valid house rule. But that is what it is. There is nothing in the rules to support it. And I would suggest that, for balance's sake, that you either force them to use some of their beginning skill slots on the appropriate knowledge skills, or give the other classes free skill ranks as well.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brian Bachman wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:

[I could see this for a class like sorcerer, or perhaps even the early levels of summoner, but clerics, wizards, druids, and others who have to study a bit, or at least pray are going to take the time to figure out what their options are. Even most spontaneous casters would try to figure out what they could summon, and even if the numbers are strictly an abstraction, they are an abstraction that 90% of casters would know, even if they used different methods of describing it, so it really doesn't hurt to let the player see the numbers that their characters would most likely have knowledge of anyway.

This of course only applies to the generally common summons. Higher level summons of creatures that are virtually never seen on the material plane are another matter entirely.

Respectfully, but still completely, disagree. This is functionally equivalent to giving your casters free skill ranks in Knowledge Dungeoneering and/or Knowledge The Planes and/or Knowledge Nature and/or other Knowledge skills appropriate for the specific critter. If they want to know this stuff, invest the points in the skills, and even then, that doesn't permit them to look at the entire stat block, it just gives them a bit of useful information, or possibly more than one bit if they roll well enough.

If you want to play that all casters in your world are highly educated and all study this stuff to death at Hogwart's before being released into the world, that is a fun and perhaps valid house rule. But that is what it is. There is nothing in the rules to support it. And I would suggest that, for balance's sake, that you either force them to use some of their beginning skill slots on the appropriate knowledge skills, or give the other classes free skill ranks as well.

In all seriousness, how is knowing the statblock for a creature you can summon different from knowing the rules description of the summoning spell itself? As I see it, the abilities of summonable creatures are just as much a part of the summon monster n spell description as the range, damage dice, and area of effect are for a fireball. If a player doesn't have to make a Knowledge (Arcana) check to be able to read a spell description, why do they need to make an appropriate knowledge check to be able to read the description of a creature summonable by a known spell?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I have to side with those that state that the player playing the wizard casting the summoner know the stats of the summoned beasty.

If the player knows the stats ahead of time, they can apply any appropriate templates and/or modifiers to the stats. Have those sheets ready to go for when/if they summon anything. This speeds play and doesn't interrupt the game while the GM looks up the creature, adds templates and such on the fly and has the attacks/damage rolled.


John Woodford wrote:


In all seriousness, how is knowing the statblock for a creature you can summon different from knowing the rules description of the summoning spell itself? As I see it, the abilities of summonable...

Is there anything in that spell description that gives monster stats? Is there anything anywhere in the rules that says the caster gets to know the stats? I'm not usually much of a rules lawyer, and fully support any GM making any houserules he or she (in consultation with their group) thinks are appropriate. Just recognize when you are doing it and think about what possible effects it might have. In this case, you are giving the wizard free stuff he/she hasn't earned, and should think about if that creates any problems. If you think it doesn't, fine for you and your table. I think it does.

But I'm a cranky old guy who still waxes nostalgic about the days when only the DM knew the rules. And to use your other example, I actually miss the days when fireballs had a volume and expanded gemoetrically in confined spaces. Kept casters on their toes. And actually, one of my houserules for area of effect spells is that they require a Spellcraft check to place precisely in combat in situations when the players are trying to be very fine with their control and include a bad guy who is in close combat or adjacent to one of the caster's buddies. That's definitely not RAW, but it makes more sense to me than assuming the caster can never err.


Mistwalker wrote:

I have to side with those that state that the player playing the wizard casting the summoner know the stats of the summoned beasty.

If the player knows the stats ahead of time, they can apply any appropriate templates and/or modifiers to the stats. Have those sheets ready to go for when/if they summon anything. This speeds play and doesn't interrupt the game while the GM looks up the creature, adds templates and such on the fly and has the attacks/damage rolled.

I'm all for the Sorc or Wiz knowing which avaible creatures he can summon. He then needs to make an appropriate knowledge check to determine the abilities of said creatures to realize which would be the best choice for the task at hand.

IMHO.


Mistwalker wrote:

I have to side with those that state that the player playing the wizard casting the summoner know the stats of the summoned beasty.

If the player knows the stats ahead of time, they can apply any appropriate templates and/or modifiers to the stats. Have those sheets ready to go for when/if they summon anything. This speeds play and doesn't interrupt the game while the GM looks up the creature, adds templates and such on the fly and has the attacks/damage rolled.

Ah, you're making the argument of convenience for the DM. This I completely understand, even if I don't completely agree with it. I don't find that it slows play that much or is too great a burden for the DM. In practice, I usually will give the players the stats once they summon something, so they can run it themselves. I just don't let them look up the stats of something they have never summoned to decide if they want to summon it. They learn by experience, and eventually, through summoning a variety of critters, will acquire the knowledge they want to make an optimal choice. They just don't get it automatically when they acquire the spell. And I know players, who, given the chance, will spend half an hour or more of game time obsessively looking up and reading each monster description in detail and doing a cost benefit comparison before casting their spell, if they are not prevented from doing so by the DM. Now that will really slow play down.


Brain...what happens when one of your players purchases their own copy of the Bestiary?

As to who's making house rules and who isn't...there's nothing in the rules that explicitly states the casting character doesn't know the stats, just as there isn't anything saying they do.

Me personally, I'm fine with people owning any Paizo products they want to buy. The more players I have that own the Bestiary, and the Game Mastery Guide, and whatever else, the more likely I figure they are to DM. I ask them not to go out and purchase published adventures I'm going to run, but at the same time I change stat blocks completely, so they wouldn't get much more than the plot...which tends to get changed a bit too.

I think following your stated line of reasoning, we could begin to argue that a player doesn't get to have a copy of their own character sheet. I meen, do you really KNOW how strong you are, how smart you are, how forcefull your personality is? There is a certine amount of metagaming that has to take place.


The Other Satyr Avatar wrote:
But I'm a cranky old guy who still waxes nostalgic about the days when only the DM knew the rules.

Nostalgic DM? Bah! Back in MY day, all drow got free max ranks in Perform (BDSM) -- and everyone knew it, because it was depicted on the back of the module cover. And we didn't even HAVE skill ranks, so that was a pretty impressive ability!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Fergie wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
As for the concept of "good drow..." That's not something we're ever likely to do in print, but that doesn't mean you can't do one in your home campaign. Your GM's the one who gets to make that call in your game, not us.

Does that generally apply to all creatures who have traditional alignments (Orcs, Red Dragons, Gargoyles, etc.)?

Note: I'm not looking for a rule here, just a general assumption.

It does indeed apply.

As a general rule, if a writer wants to include a good version of a normally evil creature in a product, that writer has to be VERY GOOD at justifying the choice with great writing.

Good guy versions of normally evil races can be very compelling (see Drizzt), but they also take the teeth out of a race that's handy to have around as a bad guy race (see Drizzt).


Fraust wrote:

Brain...what happens when one of your players purchases their own copy of the Bestiary?

As to who's making house rules and who isn't...there's nothing in the rules that explicitly states the casting character doesn't know the stats, just as there isn't anything saying they do.

Me personally, I'm fine with people owning any Paizo products they want to buy. The more players I have that own the Bestiary, and the Game Mastery Guide, and whatever else, the more likely I figure they are to DM. I ask them not to go out and purchase published adventures I'm going to run, but at the same time I change stat blocks completely, so they wouldn't get much more than the plot...which tends to get changed a bit too.

I think following your stated line of reasoning, we could begin to argue that a player doesn't get to have a copy of their own character sheet. I meen, do you really KNOW how strong you are, how smart you are, how forcefull your personality is? There is a certine amount of metagaming that has to take place.

As to them owning and reading the Bestiary, some of them do. Two others in the group also DM, and we all pretty much play it the same way. Players just can't bring the Bestiary to the table, and long experience with them allows me to trust them not to try to use knowledge their character doesn't have. And like you, I frequently alter stat blocks, so attempting to do so would bring them mixed results.

As to which of us is houseruling, I'm pretty confident I'm correct, but see your point. You are welcome to FAQ it if you so desire.

Good point about character sheets. The game does have mechanics that require a certain amount of what could be termed metagaming just to play. I do appreciate and consider it good roleplaying when people describe their actions in non-mechanical terms and keep the mechanics in the background. I also note that it is somewhat different for a PC to be aware of his own capabilities than a completely different and perhaps very alien creature he has never seen before.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
The Other Satyr Avatar wrote:
But I'm a cranky old guy who still waxes nostalgic about the days when only the DM knew the rules.
Nostalgic DM? Bah! Back in MY day, all drow got free max ranks in Perform (BDSM) -- and everyone knew it, because it was depicted on the back of the module cover. And we didn't even HAVE skill ranks, so that was a pretty impressive ability!

Reminds me of playing the old Desert of Desolation series, in which the location of one artifact we were looking for is clearly depicted on the module cover - a module cover we all saw repeatedly as he used it as part of his DM's screen, and none of us (five at the table) ever noticed it. D'oh!!


Brian Bachman wrote:
Reminds me of playing the old Desert of Desolation series, in which the location of one artifact we were looking for is clearly depicted on the module cover - a module cover we all saw repeatedly as he used it as part of his DM's screen, and none of us (five at the table) ever noticed it. D'oh!!

Imagine my dismay, when my DM told me we'd be playing the "Desert of Distillation," and then stood up the module cover so that I could read the title. I'll never forgive him for that.


I absolutely hated the drow commoner and Drow Noble distinction. All my drow have spell resistance 12+class level. I want my drow to give off that fear when magicusers encounter them. But I remember the fear from my first encounter with them in the G-D-Q series. Drow laugh at magicusers. Drow all wear +5 adamanine chain mail and carry +5 adamantine sword. (Well +3 to +5).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brian Bachman wrote:


Is there anything in that spell description that gives monster stats? Is there anything anywhere in the rules that says the caster gets to know the stats? I'm not usually much of a rules lawyer, and fully support any GM making any houserules he or she (in consultation with their group) thinks are appropriate. Just recognize when you are doing it and think about what possible effects it might have. In this case, you are giving the wizard free stuff he/she hasn't earned, and should think about if that creates any problems. If you think it doesn't, fine for you and your table. I think it does.

I guess the question in my mind is what privileges the spell description in and of itself over summonable monster stats, not whether the monster stats are in the spell description.

Brian Bachman wrote:


But I'm a cranky old guy who still waxes nostalgic about the days when only the DM knew the rules. And to use your other example, I actually miss the days when fireballs had a volume and expanded gemoetrically in confined spaces. Kept casters on their toes. And actually, one of my houserules for area of effect spells is that they require a Spellcraft check to place precisely in combat in situations when the players are trying to be very fine with their control and include a bad guy who is in close combat or adjacent to one of the caster's buddies. That's definitely not RAW, but it makes more sense to me than assuming the caster can never err.

IIRC, back then under the various monster summoning spells the caster would roll randomly for what would appear, obviating the need for a player to see the monster description and sidestepping the issue at hand nicely.

And by the way, thank you so much for giving me a character death flashback. See, there were two DMs in a group I played with in the late '70s. One had a dungeon with 5 meter-wide hallways and walls that absorbed magic. So a fireball would fill about one square, and any of the volume of effect that impinged on a wall would just be absorbed--no backblast. The other had a dungeon with 1.5 meter-wide hallways and no fancy walls. And one fine day, one of the players forgot where we were. Dropped a fireball at the end of a hallway and the volume of effect wound up including the entire party. The targeted critter survived; the party mostly didn't. At least my character was raisable....


the drow noble does have a major disadvantage.

that spell resisitance will likely deny him/her access to low level healing items such as the wand of cure light wounds, and the fact that they cannot both lower thier spell resistance and take an action in the same round. which means, they need someone else to assist with healing them. meaning double the wasted actions.

EDIT; I Agree with steel fire dragon, spell resistance is highly overrated. i beleive most published monster spell like abilities are ovverrated to some degree or other.


SR= overrated


the reason i beleive the drow noble is overpowered is not because of any particular lone ovverrated ability. but because, they are nickle and dimed with overrated abilities that other races have to pay through the nose for and have few disadvantages besides being a pain to heal.

i would gladly allow the 8 pathfinder planetouched

Suli, Aasimaar, Tiefling, Ifrit, Undine, Oread, Sylph and Fetchling. in fact, i may eventually want to run a planetouched campaign.


I'd like to get an image of the Sylph myself....

can think of a way to rebuild my air gensasi monk now... as soon as I can purchase me a copy of the beastiary 2...


•Spell-Like Abilities: Drow nobles can cast dancing lights, deeper darkness, faerie fire, feather fall, and levitate each at will, and have detect magic as a constant spell-like ability. A drow noble can also cast divine favor, dispel magic, and suggestion once per day each. In some cases, a drow noble's spell-like abilities might vary, although the level of a particular spell-like ability does not. A drow noble's caster level for her spell-like abilities is equal to her character level.

Dancing lights... free torches.... but rather bad as Light attracts all kinds of things or atleast did at one time in the deep dark well evil beyond believe stalks.
deeper darkness like darkness save you cant see through it even with darkvision

ffire, still lights up the dark.... outlines creatures, could be used for roleplaying drow pranks: overrated and near useless

feather fall and levitates: up and down, not over rrated but almost unusable anywhere out of the darklands

detect magic: borderline overpowered, but its drawback is that it still takes 3 rounds to detail everything about that hell knight pulling a jarlaxle, and with say a group of 15, it will still take tooo long.

divine favor + 1 for every x lvl max +3 ...... meh....

dispell magic: borderline overpowered imo,
suggestion: worthless.....

offsets to the abiltieis are just as useless as they are helpful.

this post is an oppinion. and only that.


Are wrote:
Rapthorn2ndform wrote:
Are wrote:


To get the stat adjustments of any monster, subtract 10 from the even scores and 11 from the odd scores.

doesnt quite work

and if i bring it up to a GM i'd like to be sure of the scaling

How doesn't it work? That's the way it is :)

Example (in case I wasn't clear earlier): The Centaur has STR 15, DEX 14, CON 15, INT 11, WIS 14, CHA 12. Subtracting 10/11 provides the following stat adjustments: STR +4, DEX +4, CON +4, INT +0, WIS +4, CHA +2.

The only monsters for which that isn't accurate is for those that already have class levels (since those automatically get the nonelite or elite arrays, which produce higher stats).

YUP...thats EXACTLY where i screwed up

i started at A...asamar...class levels...didnt come out rigt but once i got past that it seemed right


out of a whole laundry list of spell like abilitiies, most were useless and only 2 were really borderline overpowered. but only because one was constant and the other a higher spell level.

Spell resistance and the racial modifiers are not really worthwhile either.

for the drow noble's "ECL", i'd rather play an underage human vampire sorceress with natural cat ears, noble blood, and a taste for extravagant gothic victorian fashion. hell i could tack on the advanced template, suffer for 3 class levels and actually make up that extra level and now have the same "ECL" as the drow noble. funny thing is that this pc would draw a whole lot of unwanted attention towards the party in question.

such a Character's sheet would hint at her being overpowered at first glance but would have so many inconveniences that it balances itself out. mostly consisting of a complete lack of privacy, having to find a suitable place to sleep, drinking blood, maintaining servants, and being unable to travel in daylight hours.


I forgot to put this to my above post.... thought of it after I went to bed....

the Noble Drow's abilities are only powered on a situational basis.

basically it means, you might and might not use them.


Steelfiredragon wrote:

•Spell-Like Abilities: Drow nobles can cast dancing lights, deeper darkness, faerie fire, feather fall, and levitate each at will, and have detect magic as a constant spell-like ability. A drow noble can also cast divine favor, dispel magic, and suggestion once per day each. In some cases, a drow noble's spell-like abilities might vary, although the level of a particular spell-like ability does not. A drow noble's caster level for her spell-like abilities is equal to her character level.

Dancing lights... free torches.... but rather bad as Light attracts all kinds of things or atleast did at one time in the deep dark well evil beyond believe stalks.
deeper darkness like darkness save you cant see through it even with darkvision

ffire, still lights up the dark.... outlines creatures, could be used for roleplaying drow pranks: overrated and near useless

feather fall and levitates: up and down, not over rrated but almost unusable anywhere out of the darklands

detect magic: borderline overpowered, but its drawback is that it still takes 3 rounds to detail everything about that hell knight pulling a jarlaxle, and with say a group of 15, it will still take tooo long.

divine favor + 1 for every x lvl max +3 ...... meh....

dispell magic: borderline overpowered imo,
suggestion: worthless.....

offsets to the abiltieis are just as useless as they are helpful.

this post is an oppinion. and only that.

Whether they are over-rated or not (and I do disagree eith your analysis of many of these spells), it is still a formidable list of special abilities, many of them usable at will. That's why it should be an NPC race unless you are playing a high-level, high-powered game. At low levels, compared to core character races, this guy would dominate.


Steelfiredragon wrote:

I forgot to put this to my above post.... thought of it after I went to bed....

the Noble Drow's abilities are only powered on a situational basis.

basically it means, you might and might not use them.

Not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. You could say the same thing about any race's special abilities.

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