| 15 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
In order to settle a little debate, I'm asking the question here, and hoping that a few folks will hit the FAQ button.
Can you take 10 on the intelligence required when casting Contact Other Plane?
This question might also apply to other situations, such as using a spellcraft check while concentrating on Detect Magic for example.
If folks are interested in the comments made so far, they are welcome to read here, but please keep comments in this thread.
The thread that started all the fun
Thanks
A skill check represents an attempt to accomplish some goal, usually while under some sort of time pressure or distraction. Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions, increasing the odds of success.
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Taking 20: ...
Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to concentration checks or caster level checks.
School divination; Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V
Range personal
Target you
Duration concentration
You send your mind to another plane of existence (an Elemental Plane or some plane farther removed) in order to receive advice and information from powers there. See the accompanying table for possible consequences and results of the attempt. The powers reply in a language you understand, but they resent such contact and give only brief answers to your questions. All questions are answered with “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or some other one-word answer.
You must concentrate on maintaining the spell (a standard action) in order to ask questions at the rate of one per round. A question is answered by the power during the same round. You may ask one question for every two caster levels.
Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the probability that you will incur a decrease in Intelligence and Charisma due to your brain being overwhelmed, but also increases the chance of the power knowing the answer and answering correctly. Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects. (Random results obtained from the table are subject to the personalities of individual deities.) On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces.
Avoid Int/Cha Decrease: You must succeed on an Intelligence check against this DC to avoid a decrease in Intelligence and Charisma. If the check fails, your Intelligence and Charisma scores each fall to 8 for the stated duration, and you become unable to cast arcane spells. If you lose Intelligence and Charisma, the effect strikes as soon as the first question is asked, and no answer is received. If a successful contact is made, roll d% to determine the type of answer you gain.
True Answer: You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.
Don't Know: The entity tells you that it doesn't know.
Lie: The entity intentionally lies to you.
Random Answer: The entity tries to lie but doesn't know the answer, so it makes one up.
You may not take 10. Combating forces trying to warp your mind is a "distraction or threat" pretty clearly. Personally I would have made it a will save to avoid ambiguity, but since it takes place of a will save in this situation, I think it's pretty clear that you can't take 10 on it. I'll hit the FAQ button in hopes of getting an official response... Good luck!
That and the take 10 rules apply to skill checks, not attribute checks. :)
"Ability Checks and Caster Level Checks: The normal take 10 and take 20 rules apply for ability checks. Neither rule applies to concentration checks or caster level checks."
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Merely stating that the rules as written allow taking 10 on the ability check. I made no statements about if it should be so, or that I would play it so. Just that the rules say it is so.On ability checks, yes. But with the same take 10 limitations.
And nothing in those limitations prevents you from taking 10 on this check. By the chart design, it SHOULD, but it DOESN'T. I agree that making it a Will save would remove the ambiguity.
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And nothing in those limitations prevents you from taking 10 on this check. By the chart design, it SHOULD, but it DOESN'T. I agree that making it a Will save would remove the ambiguity.Merely stating that the rules as written allow taking 10 on the ability check. I made no statements about if it should be so, or that I would play it so. Just that the rules say it is so.On ability checks, yes. But with the same take 10 limitations.
I think concentrating as a standard action while avoiding having your mind overwhelmed is definitely distracting, and arguably immediately dangerous.
They didn't make it a will save because they wanted to have the various levels be clear, and wanted to reward wizards specifically over sorcerers in the use of the spell.
However again, when the base save is 7, it clearly isn't intended to be something you can take 10 on.
Take 10 isn't something you can always do, it's something you can do under ideal circumstances "on some rolls".
<More interpretations>Again, by the rules you can do it. It doesn't matter that the DCs will be autopassed, or that you 'think' casting the spell is a distracting act. The rules say you can take 10 on the check.
Ok, we actually do have a guide for whether something qualifies as a danger.
Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, dropping whatever they are holding. Other than running away from the source, their paths are random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Once they are out of sight (or hearing) of any source of danger, they can act as they want. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing.
Now if a panicked creature would run away from a source that they know could overwhelm their brain causing an int and cha decrease, then that source is considered a "danger". Thus exposing one's self to a source that could overwhelm one's brain qualifies as being in "immediate danger".
That's your interpretation of it.
Could you refer me to the exhaustive list of every dangerous situation or distracting act?
If not, could you refer me to a rule that states that casting a spell is not a distracting act?
If not, then a rule that states casting Contact Other Plane does not put you in immediate danger?
If the rules don't specify exactly when you can and cannot take a 10, it's the DM's call whether "your character is not in immediate danger or distracted".
Unless you mean that combat is the only time you can't take a 10, because that is the only specific situation called out in the rules.
That's your interpretation of it.
Wow, talk about close-mindedness. Please do tell why a panicked creature would NOT run away from something that could very well overwhelm it's brain.
Since I never argued that, I won't try to justify it.
I just provided valid argument as to why you cannot take 10 centered upon the text of panicked. The magic of logic dictates that you either deny one of the premises or accept the conclusion when confronted with a valid argument. You seem to still deny the conclusion, therefore you must deny one of the premises.
More formally:
1) Contact other plane can overwhelm the caster's brain
2) If a panicked creature would run away from something, then it perceives it as dangerous
3) A panicked creature would run away from something that it knows can overwhelm it's brain
4) Therefore something that is known to be able to overwhelm brains is perceived as dangerous
5) If a creature perceives itself to be in danger, it cannot take 10.
6) Allowing one's self to be exposed to something that is perceived dangerous is perceived as being in danger.
7) Therefore one cannot take 10 on contact other plane.
1 and 2 are straight from the SRD. 4-6 are necessary filler to formalize the argument. 3 is my only assertion. Now you may either argue why a panicked creature would not run away from something that could overwhelm it's brain or concede the point. It is a simple motus ponen argument.
Or I can just not care about a rules argument on the internet.
As clearly indicated by your earlier participation in the argument.
More formally:
1) Contact other plane can overwhelm the caster's brain
2) If a panicked creature would run away from something, then it perceives it as dangerous
3) A panicked creature would run away from something that it knows can overwhelm it's brain
4) Therefore something that is known to be able to overwhelm brains is perceived as dangerous
5) If a creature perceives itself to be in danger, it cannot take 10.
6) Allowing one's self to be exposed to something that is perceived dangerous is perceived as being in danger.
7) Therefore one cannot take 10 on contact other plane.
So if the caster of the spell didn't know he could have his mind overrun by the spell or if he was so overconfident that nothing anywhere in the universe could overtake his mind, he could take 10 since he wouldn't perceive himself in danger?
Or if someone is using a rope to climb and they were 10' off the ground they can take 10, but if they were really high up so if they let go they would die, then they would then perceive themselves in danger and couldn't take 10?
I'm probably on the side of not allowing a take 10 on this spell in my own game, but your inclusion of panic to prove your point doesn't really make sense, nor does the perceiving angle.
More formally:
1) Contact other plane can overwhelm the caster's brain
2) If a panicked creature would run away from something, then it perceives it as dangerous
3) A panicked creature would run away from something that it knows can overwhelm it's brain
4) Therefore something that is known to be able to overwhelm brains is perceived as dangerous
5) If a creature perceives itself to be in danger, it cannot take 10.
6) Allowing one's self to be exposed to something that is perceived dangerous is perceived as being in danger.
7) Therefore one cannot take 10 on contact other plane.So if the caster of the spell didn't know he could have his mind overrun by the spell or if he was so overconfident that nothing anywhere in the universe could overtake his mind, he could take 10 since he wouldn't perceive himself in danger?
Or if someone is using a rope to climb and they were 10' off the ground they can take 10, but if they were really high up so if they let go they would die, then they would then perceive themselves in danger and couldn't take 10?
I'm probably on the side of not allowing a take 10 on this spell, but your inclusion of panic to prove your point doesn't really make sense, nor does the perceiving angle.
I couldn't quickly formalize without the perception. If I sat down and took the time I'd be able get the wording right. The perception cropped up because of corner cases in panic and it seemed like the quickest patch to those. Also note that my argument does is not a universal argument, but merely an existence argument. Covering the other cases requires more lawyering than I was getting at. I just wanted an argument that worked from very difficult to argue premises.
why would any dm allow take 10 on this spell? I'm not sure on raw though I think it is but ray is pretty clear. if take 0 is allowed there really isn't any point in the line aboutbthe saves being able tonsil it. I suppose a 5 int dormer could but I don't thinknthere are clot of those and likely fewer with CoP on theirvspell list.
if take ten invalidates whole sections of the spell description it was likely nit intended to be used not intended to be used.
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<More interpretations>Again, by the rules you can do it. It doesn't matter that the DCs will be autopassed, or that you 'think' casting the spell is a distracting act. The rules say you can take 10 on the check.
The rules say you can take 10 if (list of conditions that must be true, including not being distracted or in immediate danger)
I believe that when you are contacting other planes, you are distracted by the nature of the spell. In fact, you could reasonably argue that the check is a distraction check, as in I am trying not to be overwhelmed by all the information flying at me.
You don't think that qualifies as distracting, I do.
I'll go ahead and restate my argument.
You cannot take 10 on the check because you are distracted. Why are you distracted?
You spend 10 minutes casting a spell. This casting time allows you to do the following: Concentrate On the Spell, and ask a question per two caster levels.
I do not believe a caster should be able to take 10 on any skill or ability checks while concentrating on a spell.
Secondly, when concentrating on the spell, your concentration is focused on the channel to another plane, and the question. Resisting the int/chr loss is a separate thing from what you are concentrating on.
Now, if a spell caster *can* take 10, generally, while concentrating, then my argument goes away. If the concentration portion of the spell is to resist the attack, the argument goes away.
However, to me, it is very clear that the concentration on the spell has nothing to do with the roll to resist mind-blasting, and so you cant argue that you can take 10 because you're already concentrating on it. If you stop concentrating on the spell to concentrate on resisting the attack, the spell should end.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I use the following distinction when adjudicating whether a character can take 10 on a roll.
A character can take 10 to use Acrobatics to carefully walk a taut rope, 50 feet above a crowd of on-lookers. (Circus acrobats don't need to roll every time they walk a tightrope.)
A character cannot take 10 to use Acrobatics to carefully walk a taut rope, 50 feet above a squad of guards, all shooting at her with their crossbows.
Now, obviously, walking a tightrope 50 feet above the ground is dangerous, but the character is concentrating on that danger-at-hand, and the dangers are routine. With the introduction of the crossbows, the character can no longer devote her entire attention to her balance, the dangers are no longer routine, and she needs to roll to stay balanced while moving.
That's my litmus test.
Regarding contact other plane, I'd rule that the first several times the character uses the spell, the threats are novel, and the character needs to roll those Intelligence checks. But at some point -- say, when the caster is able to cast 6th-Level spells, or after casting contact other plane 15 times -- the character can treat the challenges as routine enough to take 10 on the check.
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More formally:
1) Contact other plane can overwhelm the caster's brain
2) If a panicked creature would run away from something, then it perceives it as dangerous
3) A panicked creature would run away from something that it knows can overwhelm it's brain
4) Therefore something that is known to be able to overwhelm brains is perceived as dangerous
5) If a creature perceives itself to be in danger, it cannot take 10.
6) Allowing one's self to be exposed to something that is perceived dangerous is perceived as being in danger.
7) Therefore one cannot take 10 on contact other plane.
+1. I take my hat off to you, sir.
The INT check is a part of the spell, not a characteristic of imaginary mental combat that does not exist. There are no forces attempting to damage your mind. The "overwhelming" part of the spell is having your mind far removed into other planes, not some fictitious assault.
You are not performing two actions, you are performing 1. Saying that you can't take 10 because you are concentrating on the spell is silly. You are concentrating on the very same thing for which you are making a check. This very same logic taken to its necessary conclusion results in silly things like:
- you cannot take 10 on a spot check because you are walking
- you cannot take 10 on a jump check because you were running up to the jumpetc.
By RAW, you may take 10 on Contact Other Plane. By the house rules of certain DM's, you may not.
By RAW, until you ASK A QUESTION, you don't roll to have your mind blasted. By RAW, I can cast Contact Other Plane, *never ask a question* and not have to try to protect my brain. How exactly is the check part of casting the spell again? the spell explicitly says I 'may' ask a question, not must, and it also explicitly says I make the check after the first question is asked.
I can hold the spell open for as long as I like, and until I ask the first question, no check is needed to save my brain. By RAW, it isn't the 'being so far away' that is making me make the check, it's the incoming *answer* which is driven, not by the plane I'm contacting, but the being there that does not like me bothering him very much.
+1. I take my hat off to you, sir.More formally:
1) Contact other plane can overwhelm the caster's brain
2) If a panicked creature would run away from something, then it perceives it as dangerous
3) A panicked creature would run away from something that it knows can overwhelm it's brain
4) Therefore something that is known to be able to overwhelm brains is perceived as dangerous
5) If a creature perceives itself to be in danger, it cannot take 10.
6) Allowing one's self to be exposed to something that is perceived dangerous is perceived as being in danger.
7) Therefore one cannot take 10 on contact other plane.
It's amazing how much one single philosophy class can help.
The independent variable in this test is how "far removed from your home plane" your mind happens to be. As the independent variable, the distance your mind is removed is what determines the magnitude of other variables, such as DC of the check and time the damage is suffered. Implicitly, the independent variable is the cause of the dependent variables, which results in "how far removed from your home plane" your mind is to be the cause of the ability damage.
You are wrong. The Power of the being is the critical variable. Look at the spell, read the table. The Outer Planes are not all the same value. It is the status of the being... demigod, lesser deity, intermediate deity, or greater deity that determines the check and severity of the mind blasting. You're just making things up now.
Furthermore, text trumps table, and the text states that it is how far removed you are from your home plane that is critical.
Please show me RAW where text trumps table. Also, you're still wrong. Here's the text:
Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the probability that you will incur a decrease in Intelligence and Charisma due to your brain being overwhelmed, but also increases the chance of the power knowing the answer and answering correctly. Once the Outer Planes are reached, the power of the deity contacted determines the effects.
So, you're still making stuff up.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Three questions:
1)Would people concede that the rules either leave this open to interpretation, or at least are vague enough to require the GM to use some judgement as to whether the caster can take 10 on the Intelligence check?
2)What GM position do you think makes for the best gaming experience? Should the player be worried each time her sorcerer contacts the greatest beings in the multiverse that her gray cells may start to ooze out of her eyesockets, or should contact other plane work routinely for a caster with high enough attributes? Is there any other position to take?
3) When this thread starts to descend into nerd-rage, would you like somebody to say something?
Three questions:
1)Would people concede that the rules either leave this open to interpretation, or at least are vague enough to require the GM to use some judgement as to whether the caster can take 10 on the Intelligence check?
2)What GM position do you think makes for the best gaming experience? Should the player be worried each time her sorcerer contacts the greatest beings in the multiverse that her gray cells may start to ooze out of her eyesockets, or should contact other plane work routinely for a caster with high enough attributes? Is there any other position to take?
3) When this thread starts to descend into nerd-rage, would you like somebody to say something?
1) I will concede tht *all rules* are open to interpretation, and all rules should apply GM judgement and discretion, regardless of how vague or ironclad they are.
2) My GM position was that 1st edition Contact Other Plane was far superior to the current watered-down version, but that given the rules as written, there should be a threat of 'bad things' for casting this spell. If taking 10 is allowed to bypass what seems to be a serious drawback, then one wonders why they bothered to have it at all... I disagree that the rule is there for Sorcerers, and Wizards are supposed to get a free pass. Historically, this was a Wizard-only (well, Magic-user only) spell, with serious repercussions, that should be used as a last resort. Trivializing it to your daily phone call to the outer planes to figure out what your spells for the day should be seems like the antithesis of fun.
3) Someone being wrong on the internet? Calling out nerd-rage? Inconceivable!
Three questions:
1)Would people concede that the rules either leave this open to interpretation, or at least are vague enough to require the GM to use some judgement as to whether the caster can take 10 on the Intelligence check?
yep, I agree with that
2)What GM position do you think makes for the best gaming experience? Should the player be worried each time her sorcerer contacts the greatest beings in the multiverse that her gray cells may start to ooze out of her eyesockets, or should contact other plane work routinely for a caster with high enough attributes? Is there any other position to take?
I personally think that not allowing take 10 is the best way to go, honestly if a person could just take 10 and always pass it from the time they get the spell it is not a limitation and is thus unnecessary... since they bothered to put it into the spell description I take it to mean it should mean something. If I were a player in a game where the GM disagreed with my position I wouldn't complain though.
3) When this thread starts to descend into nerd-rage, would you like somebody to say something?
Like what? I think people who would get enraged over this thread (or any other thread on a RPG message board) have other issues they should be dealing with.
As always, a DM may adjudicate the rules as he sees fit, but by RAW, you may take 10.
+1. In a campaign I'm running I'd house rule that you can't do it, but if asked to adjucate RAW in a PFS game or other similar scenario I'd have to allow it.
If you get ridiculous enough about it you can disallow taking 10 in every possible situation, but that's clearly not the intent of the rule.
i'll ask this again since the people in favour of taking 10 havent answered it. Though this may be more RAI than RAw but really.
If no one who can cast the spell cannot fail taking 10 (which was established in the previous thread i think youd need an int of 6) whats the point of the check even being there?
seems to be the point is you cast the spell and you roll and hope your brain isnt turned to jello theres nothing supposed to be routine about it.
If take 10 is legit that whole section of the spell can jus tbe removed with white-out because it no longe rhas any bearing on the spell as no one can fail it.
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If no one who can cast the spell cannot fail taking 10 (which was established in the previous thread i think youd need an int of 6) whats the point of the check even being there?
seems to be the point is you cast the spell and you roll and hope your brain isnt turned to jello theres nothing supposed to be routine about it.
If take 10 is legit that whole section of the spell can jus tbe removed with white-out because it no longe rhas any bearing on the spell as no one can fail it.
Simple. Either the text was brought over from an earlier edition where you couldn't take 10 on ability checks, or the author of the spell didn't think to check how the take 10 rules work. He could very well have written it thinking you can't take 10 on such a thing, when in reality the rules do allow it. So he may have intended for the check to be meaningful, while not knowing that as written it isn't meaningful.
so you are in effect agreeing with me what the intent was?
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I never said it was intended to work as it does, only that by the rules it does. I would probably be one of the ones houseruling it to a Will save that you cannot take 10 on. I said I didn't care about the RAI, and that I was discussing the RAW.
And if it came over from a previous edition, I am certain that it was intented to be a risk.
And if it came over from a previous edition, I am certain that it was intented to be a risk.
Here's 1st edition Contact Other Plane, courtesy of OSRIC. Note that in 1st edition, caster intelligence scores were generally no higher than 18 even when trying to maximize them, and a 19 was likely to be a 'soft' maximum possible Int score.
Contact Other plane
Arcane Divination
level: Magic user 5
Range: Caster
duration: See below
area of effect: Caster
components: V
casting time: 1 turn
Saving throw: None
The caster divorces his or her mind from the rational reality of
the material plane, accepting the fundamental contradictions
of extra-planar realities, and making contact with the powers
of the beyond. By means of this contact, he or she can query
the powers and gain “yes or no” answers to the questions he
or she poses. One question may be asked per 2 caster levels.
The caster decides how deeply he or she wishes to probe into
the realities beyond the material (unless he or she chooses to
contact an elemental plane for information about that plane).
The difficulty of the mental task is measured in terms of how
many fundamental contradictions of reality the caster can assimilate
and simultaneously juggle in his or her mind. The price
of failure is insanity. Contacting an elemental plane provides a
90% chance that the being contacted will have the knowledge
the magic user seeks, if the magic user is asking about the
particular elemental plane.
There is a 25% chance that the being will tell a lie, or that the
information will be couched in such inherently contradictory
language that it cannot be understood. If the magic user seeks
information about the material plane or non-elemental planes,
he or she must delve into the fundamental contradictions of
extra-planar metaphysics, described on the following table;
number of fundamental metaphysical contradictions (selected by the caster)
likelihood that the knowledge is available at this level of metaphysical abstraction
likelihood that the interpretation of the information gleans the wrong result
chance of insanity (reduced by 5% per point of intelligence over 15)
1 60% 35% 5%
2 65% 33% 10%
3 70% 30% 15%
4 75% 27% 20%
5 80% 25% 25%
6 85% 22% 30%
7 90% 19% 35%
8 95% 15% 40%
9 98% 10% 50%
If the caster is driven insane by what he or she finds or by simple
cognitive breakdown, the insanity will last 1-10 weeks, and
there is a 1% chance that the caster will die or commit suicide
at the end of this period if it is not removed (by a remove curse
spell, wish, etc.).
The table isn't formatted due to the fact that this is a message board, but in general, if you wanted the most accurate information, most casters would have a 35% chance of going insane to get it. You would have to have a 26 intelligence to have no chance of insanity at that level, which while not impossible, did mean that you were playing with 'greater diety' power levels for your PCs
The table isn't formatted due to the fact that this is a message board, but in general, if you wanted the most accurate information, most casters would have a 35% chance of going insane to get it. You would have to have a 26 intelligence to have no chance of insanity at that level, which while not impossible, did mean that you were playing with 'greater diety' power levels for your PCs
actually a 26 is impossible in 1e, as all ability scores have a hard maximum of 25, not even greater gods have ability scores higher than 25.
The table isn't formatted due to the fact that this is a message board, but in general, if you wanted the most accurate information, most casters would have a 35% chance of going insane to get it. You would have to have a 26 intelligence to have no chance of insanity at that level, which while not impossible, did mean that you were playing with 'greater diety' power levels for your PCsactually a 26 is impossible in 1e, as all ability scores have a hard maximum of 25, not even greater gods have ability scores higher than 25.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. For some reason I thought 30 was the max score, not 25... Not that it mattered, the occasional 19 was the highest score anyone ever had other than fighters with belts of giant strength.
I never said it was intended to work as it does, only that by the rules it does. I would probably be one of the ones houseruling it to a Will save that you cannot take 10 on. I said I didn't care about the RAI, and that I was discussing the RAW.
And if it came over from a previous edition, I am certain that it was intented to be a risk.
Except of course for my RAW argument above (that still hasn't been countered).
Which has nothing to do with my post. I already told you I don't care to argue about this with you.Except of course for my RAW argument above (that still hasn't been countered).
You stated that it is valid RAW, I have provided an argument that shows it does not work RAW.
You provided your interpretation of it that shows that. Which I am not going to bother arguing over with you.
Well I'm sorry that my interpretation makes panicked meaningful.