liquid150's page

I can concede that I missed that part, but that is only once the Outer Planes are contacted. Before that, it is dependent on how far removed from your home plane your mind is, so technically it is dependent on BOTH variables at that point.

This still does not change anything. You may take 10 as per the spell description. Otherwise, you end up with the results I cited earlier based on reasonable extrapolation of the logic.

As always, a DM may adjudicate the rules as he sees fit, but by RAW, you may take 10.

liquid150 wrote:

The independent variable in this test is how "far removed from your home plane" your mind happens to be. As the independent variable, the distance your mind is removed is what determines the magnitude of other variables, such as DC of the check and time the damage is suffered. Implicitly, the independent variable is the cause of the dependent variables, which results in "how far removed from your home plane" your mind is to be the cause of the ability damage.

You are wrong. The Power of the being is the critical variable. Look at the spell, read the table. The Outer Planes are not all the same value. It is the status of the being... demigod, lesser deity, intermediate deity, or greater deity that determines the check and severity of the mind blasting. You're just making things up now.

No, wrong. As the rule is printed, it says that it is contact with minds far removed from your home plane is the critical variable. Had it said "contact with greater powers results in ..." then you would be right. It does not, and therefore you are wrong.

While it is true the table has multiple lines for the Outer Planes, but this isn't important. Note that none of the previous planes have types of entities listed, so your argument holds no water across all situations.

Furthermore, text trumps table, and the text states that it is how far removed you are from your home plane that is critical.

Hate to break it to you, but you're the one making things up in the spell that are not there, not me.

By RAW, until you ASK A QUESTION, you don't roll to have your mind blasted. By RAW, I can cast Contact Other Plane, *never ask a question* and not have to try to protect my brain. How exactly is the check part of casting the spell again? the spell explicitly says I 'may' ask a question, not must, and it also explicitly says I make the check after the first question is asked.

You are using "may" out of context. The full sentence reads "you may ask one question for every two caster levels." This is referencing the fact that you are limited to a certain number of questions.

Quoting out of context is bad, mmkay?

It says no such thing about making the check after the first question. In fact. It "explicitly" says you take the ability damage after asking the first question. It also "explicitly" places making the check before both asking the question and the ability damage (I'm simply applying paragraph structure here, it's not difficult).

I can hold the spell open for as long as I like, and until I ask the first question, no check is needed to save my brain. By RAW, it isn't the 'being so far away' that is making me make the check, it's the incoming *answer* which is driven, not by the plane I'm contacting, but the being there that does not like me bothering him very much.

Yes, if you ask no questions you take no ability damage. This in no way means that no check is made. There is no evidence that it is the answer which causes the damage, however. There is no evidence for this, as it explicitly states you receive no answer if you have failed the check. Also, this does not mean the caster can just not ask a question if the check is failed, because the caster would not have that knowledge.

The exact quote reads:

Contact with minds far removed from your home plane
increases the probability that you will incur a decrease in
Intelligence and Charisma due to your brain being overwhelmed,
but also increases the chance of the power knowing the answer
and answering correctly.

The independent variable in this test is how "far removed from your home plane" your mind happens to be. As the independent variable, the distance your mind is removed is what determines the magnitude of other variables, such as DC of the check and time the damage is suffered. Implicitly, the independent variable is the cause of the dependent variables, which results in "how far removed from your home plane" your mind is to be the cause of the ability damage.

The hostility of the entity contacted has zero effect on the check itself. All that its hostility affects is the fact that it only gives one-word answers. This is obvious through simple application of English language written structure (it has its own paragraph, and is its own topic).

The INT check is a part of the spell, not a characteristic of imaginary mental combat that does not exist. There are no forces attempting to damage your mind. The "overwhelming" part of the spell is having your mind far removed into other planes, not some fictitious assault.

You are not performing two actions, you are performing 1. Saying that you can't take 10 because you are concentrating on the spell is silly. You are concentrating on the very same thing for which you are making a check. This very same logic taken to its necessary conclusion results in silly things like:

- you cannot take 10 on a spot check because you are walking
- you cannot take 10 on a jump check because you were running up to the jump

etc.

Also, the logic that the possible ability damage from the spell means that you are in danger is inherently flawed. Taken to its necessary logical conclusion, it results in silly things, where you definitely can take 10 but wouldn't be able to, such as:

- a rogue cannot take 10 on disabling a trap because the trap may go off in his face and kill/maim him
- a character cannot take 10 on a climb check despite no other dangers because he is 300 feet up and may fall and is in danger of taking damage from the fall

Treating the check as different from the spell makes no sense, as you would not have to make the check had you not cast the spell. The check is part of casting the spell itself, it is not caused by outside influences. If you are literally standing in front of a somewhat hostile entity of a plane you don't make INT checks to avoid ability damage. You only make these checks as part of the spell, which means that you only are concerned about one thing, the spell, not two.

By RAW, you may take 10 on Contact Other Plane. By the house rules of certain DM's, you may not.

liquid150 wrote:

Show me where the text says ANYTHING about the being trying to overwhelm you.

That's not why you're making the INT check.

Sure:

Contact Other Plane says:

Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the probability that you will incur a decrease in Intelligence and Charisma due to your brain being overwhelmed, but also increases the chance of the power knowing the answer and answering correctly.

It also says:

If you lose Intelligence and Charisma, the effect strikes as soon as the first question is asked, and no answer is received.

So, you are contacting a mind with a question. As soon as you do, the resentful power tries to blow your mind out of your head. If he fails, he grudgingly gives a brief answer. The question you are contacting that mind with is NOT being asked until the spell casting has been completed and you are on to the 'concentration and taking standard actions' portion of the proceedings. It is NOT happening as soon as the spell is cast.

Sorry Brian, I lied, I'm apparently not done. I feel my diplomacy checks getting weaker.

The spell says literally nothing like what you think it says. Read it again, and try once more.

Either that, or you can try again to show me where it says anything about the mind you contact trying to blow your mind out of your head. It's not there. This is not mental combat. The act of sending your mind that far away is difficult, but it is not the entity itself doing anything to you. The check requires no effort on your part, it is done as part of the spell.

Show me where the text says ANYTHING about the being trying to overwhelm you.

That's not why you're making the INT check.

liquid150 wrote:

This entire post is wrong, and I have already explained to you why.

You are not distracted. You are not threatened. Your logic results in character being unable to take 10 on climbing when 300 feet up. This is wrong. It also results in a rogue not being able to take 10 to disarm a trap, ever. Simply saying "a rogue is trained in disarming" is completely irrelevant to the topic. A wizard is equally trained in his craft.

For the last time, it is not a save no matter how many times you say it. It never was a save, and never will be a save. It is an ability check and you may take 10.

Ok. Can you take 10 on an ability check while maintaining concentration on a spell? That's my first question.

Because when casting Contact Other Plane, you are maintaining concentration to simply open the channel to the other plane and ask questions. Failing to concentrate on the spell causes the spell to fail.

Resisting being blasted by the overwhelming awesomeness of the power you are asking is NOT what you are concentrating on. If it was, then maybe you could take 10.

I would not let a wizard maintaining a spell take 10 on a Dex check to avoid falling off a moving platform, or take 10 to use a skill, or any other usage of take 10... because if concentrating on a spell isn't distracting, then what is?

And again: the concentration on Contact Other Plane is solely to open/hold the channel. If you stop concentrating on that to concentrate on resisting the mental onslaught, the spell fails.

I don't know where you got this erroneous interpretation, but that's not how it works.

Step 1: Complete casting spell, & concurrently with casting spell make INT check and ask first question
Step 2: Concentrate to maintain the spell

The INT check is a part of casting the spell, it is not done while concentrating. An INT check requires no real effort to perform since it is simply a test of whether you can handle the task. It is not something that requires mental effort.

Furthermore, you are not performing the check repeatedly. You do it once, at the time of casting. You have not even yet begun concentrating on the spell, so the idea that you are distracted by something that you're not even doing yet is ridiculous.

Also, I don't know where all of you got this idea that you are being assaulted by overwhelming forces. Such a concept is found nowhere in the spell. The INT check has nothing to do with fighting off a mental attack, at all. It is simply a check to see if your mind can handle being far removed from its current location, and if it can handle the contact with the entity. The text says nothing about being overwhelmed by the power of the entity you have contacted. It does say that contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the difficulty, but that does not mean you are somehow in mental combat.

Literally nowhere in the spell can you find the concept that you are somehow being assaulted by these powers. It just plain doesn't exist.

You can pretend that's what it says all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

Also, the minimum intelligence score for casting the spell is 15. It is conceivable that a wizard may not be able to take 10 and succeed at his task. However, the majority do not have to worry about it. This is intended. It is supposed to be a fairly easy task for an extremely intelligent wizard to succeed in the use of this spell, as it contributes to their core flavor and mechanics.

liquid150 wrote:

Kamelguru wrote:

IMO distracted equals not being able to keep focusing on the job, or focusing on something else when forced to make a reactive check (Perception check while you are busy showing the tavern wench your secret magic rod f.ex).

Threatened is easy. Threatened is a condition; inside someone's melee reach.

In the context of the discussion, then, how is it possible that you can be distracted by the exact same thing on which you are concentrating?

Since the other post was deleted...

The wording isn't "threatened". The wording is "When a character or creature is not in immediate danger or distracted..." followed by "Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible to take 10."

The idea being you should be able to expect to make an average attempt under ideal circumstances.

You can take 10 to disarm a trap if you are trained to disarm traps, no one is saying you can't take 10. You can't take 20, but you can choose to take 10 rather than roll just like you could with picking a lock or making a climb check.

Now if you are trying to be quiet while picking the lock because you hiding from a nearby enemy, or you have to do it quickly before the bad guys come around the corner, or you are in a burning building, or extraplanar beings are trying to overwhelm your brain...those are distraction and/or threats that make you unable to take 10, because you are operating in a distracting environment, or one with immediate danger.

In the case of this spell, the ability check isn't the spell, it is a "save" as part of the spell. For the spell you have to use the standard action part of your turn to maintain the spell AND you have to concentrate on the spell in order to accomplish the goal of the spell, specifically speak with someone on another plane.

The check is a save against making you go insane while you do this.

The equivalent would be trying to take 10 on a lockpick while also casting a spell in the same round. Or taking 10 on the reflex...

This entire post is wrong, and I have already explained to you why.

You are not distracted. You are not threatened. Your logic results in character being unable to take 10 on climbing when 300 feet up. This is wrong. It also results in a rogue not being able to take 10 to disarm a trap, ever. Simply saying "a rogue is trained in disarming" is completely irrelevant to the topic. A wizard is equally trained in his craft.

For the last time, it is not a save no matter how many times you say it. It never was a save, and never will be a save. It is an ability check and you may take 10.

liquid150 wrote:

Kamelguru wrote:

IMO distracted equals not being able to keep focusing on the job, or focusing on something else when forced to make a reactive check (Perception check while you are busy showing the tavern wench your secret magic rod f.ex).

Threatened is easy. Threatened is a condition; inside someone's melee reach.

In the context of the discussion, then, how is it possible that you can be distracted by the exact same thing on which you are concentrating?

I'd limit myself to rules as intended here. If it was intended that you could take 10 on the ability check to prevent Int/Charisma damage, why would the easiest DC be DC7? If you took 10, and had the minimum stat to cast the spell (15), your unmodified check would be 12. I really don't think that makes sense... you'd have to have a -6 situational modifier to your roll to have a chance to fail.

So, while it's not RAW, I'd certainly say that if taking 10 was an accepted response to the mental attack inherent in sending your mind out, they would have made the DC more variable... it makes no sense for a risky spell to be designed to have no inherent risk prior to casting. If you know the attack against you is going to fail up front, it's not much of an attack.

Also, you are concentrating on maintaining the spell and asking questions. Failure to concentrate causes the loss of the spell. As a GM I'd rule that that is separate from fending off the mental assault that can obliterate your mind, so you are being distracted by holding the channel to the planes open when the overwhelming planar force hits you. You can't concentrate on resisting the force, your concentration is already being used to open the channel.

The INT check DC's are there because a sorcerer may choose to cast the spell. Sorcerers aren't Divination specialized (not the game term specialized) like wizards are intended to be.

Wizards are intended to acquire foreknowledge through divination. It is how they maximize their ability to pick and choose spells from their spellbook and tailor those spells to the situation.

Otherwise, they are just going to throw a wild guess at it. It's not very "wizardy" to just wildly guess what spells you need in the morning.

BTW, I am a DM, and I let players do exactly what I'm saying. Just to cut off the accusations that "no DM" would let me do what I'm saying.

When did I say wizards were overpowered? They are, but I never said that until just now.

If we do switch the examples to the climbing example, you may still take 10.

Distractions are, in fact, described if not defined:
- motion
- damage
- under the effects of a spell
- weather
etc.

Note that all of these are circumstances outside the casting of the spell itself. You can't be distracted by Contact Other Plane because that is all you are doing. Were you casting the spell on a rocking boat that would be one thing, but it can be generally assumed you are not. Concentrating on a spell cannot distract you from concentrating on that very same spell, that's silly. Also, as I stated already, the ability check is made as part of the spell itself. It is not independent of the spell. As such you cannot be distracted by concentrating on the spell for purposes of making a check that is specifically part of a spell.

For example, an arcane caster casts a Silent Image, and concentrates on it. An outsider with spell resistance interacts with the spell, forcing a caster level check. However, this particular spellcaster has Arcane Mastery, allowing him to take 10 on SR checks. He may still take 10 on the check, despite the fact that he is concentrating on the spell. This is because the check is part of the spell itself, and not independent of the spell.

COP works the same way.

In response to Michael (nice name, it's mine too, sorry I was writing while you posted), it is specifically stated in the rules that you may take 10 on an ability check. Taking 10 applies to ability checks in the same way it applies to skill checks.

liquid150 wrote:

Kamelguru wrote:

IMO distracted equals not being able to keep focusing on the job, or focusing on something else when forced to make a reactive check (Perception check while you are busy showing the tavern wench your secret magic rod f.ex).

Threatened is easy. Threatened is a condition; inside someone's melee reach.

In the context of the discussion, then, how is it possible that you can be distracted by the exact same thing on which you are concentrating?

It isn't. Thus, you can take 10. And frankly, who cares? Taking 10 means average. Taking 20 is a hassle, and I think it should be.

Indeed, then we agree.

IMO distracted equals not being able to keep focusing on the job, or focusing on something else when forced to make a reactive check (Perception check while you are busy showing the tavern wench your secret magic rod f.ex).

Threatened is easy. Threatened is a condition; inside someone's melee reach.

In the context of the discussion, then, how is it possible that you can be distracted by the exact same thing on which you are concentrating?