|
Since my group has been playing a campaign set in/around Alkenstar for a while now, we all pretty much jumped into the Ultimate Combat playtest the moment the pdf hit. Our opinions on the class are mixed but hopeful overall.
The big problem that anyone using a firearm has is the prohibitive cost of weapons and ammo. I understand that the prices are high in order to keep firearms rare in the world as a whole (Jason Bulmahn said this in the "giving up on the gunslinger" thread), and have no problem with that reasoning.
Giving the gunslinger class a free weapon helps solve part of the problem, but there is still a problem with ammo.
The suggestion we have is to give the gunslinger class the ability to cast their own bullets for substantially less money (or even for free). It should be a low level (maybe 3rd?) class ability. Assuming they have access to the necessary components, they can craft some ammo for the day simply by spending X amount of time doing so. Sort of like a wizard preparing spells.
To keep things fair, only the gunslinger who creates the bullets (maybe also another gunslinger who finds them) can use this specially crafted ammo. Sort of like how an alchemist gets to create a certain number of bombs that only they can use. You could set gradually increasing limits to how much ammo the gunslinger can get for free each day, and how much they can keep on hand.
There would still be a reason for the gunslinger to buy some extra ammo, but these additional shots would be like charges on a wand. It costs a little bit of money but it helps you keep going longer when you start to run low on resources.
We have other suggestions, but I thought I'd start here and see what people think.
|
|
Until you factor in how non-standardized firearms were pre-interchangeable parts. One could reason that not too many people can match the gunslinger's knowledge of what their own equipment's capable of.
That works as an explanation. After X level the gunslinger has mastered their own personal firearm to the point that they can cheaply and quickly manufacture ammo specifically for it in limited but reasonable quantities.
The important thing is that the gunslinger has inexpensive access to ammunition that they can't turn around and sell for profit or flood the market. Fix the prohibitive ammo cost the class faces without removing the "firearms are rare in the world" end of things. I don't see a problem with one gunslinger using another gunslinger's ammo. That way a gunslinger can replenish his supply from a fallen enemy, swap out with a friend, etc.
The special ammo could be a charge packet of gunpowder/lead that every gunslinger concocts differently. A professional gunslinger can handle the delicate wrap but a non-trained or armature gunslinger would ruin it.
Mechanically, the principle is already included in the game. The alchemist has something similar with their extracts & bombs.
Just make the material necessary to create a batch similar to existing ammo (about a gold piece or so several bullets).
Also, this doesn't invalidate the Secret Stash feat (I actually think it compliments it) since Secret Stash can be used in combat while the gunslingers regular ability to make ammo would be a preparation thing done during downtime at the start of the day (or possibly between encounters).
|
|
Dear god I somehow missed that feat... Holy crap the gunslinger's awesome! Just sell your guns, make ammo every day & sell that. Seriously, they totally need to rethink the whole thematic over-cost thing.
Personally I don't see any reason why someone would ever take a level in gunslinger just to sell the free firearms. Why waste an entire character level just for a little bit of extra cash? I mean, I suppose you could but it would be rather short-sighted and not the sort of thing the designers need to "fix".
I feel the same way about the Secret Stash feat. In exchange for 1 point of Grit you are getting approximately 16.5 gold pieces worth of salable treasure. Hardly game breaking considering you are selling the very thing that your class needs to function. I guess the designers could include a "you have to use the ammo within x number of rounds or it becomes inert" or something, but a DM could also just say "no" if the player manages to abuse the feat.
Again, the issue here is that in order to do what the class is designed to do (shoot things) the gunslinger needs a supply of expensive ammunition. The designers have already mentioned on other threads that they are aware of and looking in to the issue. I just wanted to throw out the idea that our group came up with after some playtesting.
If the gunslinger could make their own ammo cheaply and in limited quantities, that not only fixes the cost problem but opens up all sorts of possibilities for class skills/deeds involving the homemade ammo.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
The thing is, with 1 dip level & a feat, you gain a source of income that greatly exceeds what you could with just regular crafting, performing, or profession checks. The fact that you can stockpile that this ammo & it includes gunpowder means that you could just, during downtime, stock up on bombs given enough time.
I've seen people dip level into stuff for less practical reasons. I'm now imagining the prison-break scenario with this one & it's awesome.
GM: "Sure, you can sell the ammo you got for free for some extra cash. Roll a Profession: Merchant check. Sweet, you rolled a 16! Looks like after dealing with the local merchant guild, paying the appropriate taxes and fees, and spending time locating a buyer, you earned 8 gp this week! Isn't this fun? What do you mean you want to go back to adventuring?"
GM: "Sure, you can sell the ammo you got for free for some extra cash. Roll a Profession: Merchant check. Sweet, you rolled a 16! Looks like after dealing with the local merchant guild, paying the appropriate taxes and fees, and spending time locating a buyer, you earned 8 gp this week! Isn't this fun? What do you mean you want to go back to adventuring?"The thing is, with 1 dip level & a feat, you gain a source of income that greatly exceeds what you could with just regular crafting, performing, or profession checks. The fact that you can stockpile that this ammo & it includes gunpowder means that you could just, during downtime, stock up on bombs given enough time.
I've seen people dip level into stuff for less practical reasons. I'm now imagining the prison-break scenario with this one & it's awesome.
As much as this mirrors how such a conversation would go in my game, saying that the DM can house rule away a situation doesn't mean that the situation doesn't exist. Paizo closed other money-making loopholes in the game, they should be made aware of this one so that they can close it off as well.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
|
As much as this mirrors how such a conversation would go in my game, saying that the DM can house rule away a situation doesn't mean that the situation doesn't exist. Paizo closed other money-making loopholes in the game, they should be made aware of this one so that they can close it off as well.
See, I don't see it as a houserule, I see it as common sense. Cheesing the rules for money is clearly not in keeping with the spirit of the game, and I think both players and GMs know that. (Besides, Profession skills exist for a reason :D )
Will Paizo patch this loophole? Probably, if only to address the complaints they've received.
I just don't think they should have to in the first place.
In the same way, I don't think they should worry over putting a lake of acid in an adventure because PCs might bottle and sell it. Pathfinder is an Adventure game, let Adventure, first and foremost, guide the rules.
EDIT: I guess "don't think they should have to" isn't quite what I mean. It's more that I find it annoying that they have to.
As much as this mirrors how such a conversation would go in my game, saying that the DM can house rule away a situation doesn't mean that the situation doesn't exist. Paizo closed other money-making loopholes in the game, they should be made aware of this one so that they can close it off as well.
See, I don't see it as a houserule, I see it as common sense. Cheesing the rules for money is clearly not in keeping with the spirit of the game, and I think both players and GMs know that. (Besides, Profession skills exist for a reason :D )
Will Paizo patch this loophole? Probably, if only to address the complaints they've received.
I just don't think they should have to in the first place.
In the same way, I don't think they should worry over putting a lake of acid in an adventure because PCs might bottle and sell it. Pathfinder is an Adventure game, let Adventure, first and foremost, guide the rules.
EDIT: I guess "don't think they should have to" isn't quite what I mean. It's more that I find it annoying that they have to.
I agree completely, but I also thought it was common sense that you couldn't get infinite wishes or wealth in game with one of the stupid loops 3.5e allowed technically. Paizo fixed those from what I can tell and I'm sure they'll fix this too.
I've got a question for you, in regards to making ones own ammo.
Have you ever tried making black powder? I'm going to assume not. Look up the Du Pont explosions, please. Yes, explosions. Plural. Making gunpowder is ridiculously difficult and dangerous. The alchemist is able to prepare his bombs and extracts safely because of magic. Mundanely whipping up a batch of gunpowder on the road, however, is another story.
Hey, I just posted some changes to the Gunslinger on the
Gunslinger Review - Gunslinger, Guns, Core Classes (Multi-Part)
post. I even included a way to ceate cartridges within an innovations gun improvement mechanic. Go check it out. I'd link to it, but have no idea how.
|
|
Have you ever tried making black powder? I'm going to assume not.
No, I have never tried making black powder. I have also never jumped ten feet from a standing position, kicked open a jail cell door with my foot, cut a person in half with a sword, back-flipped off a dragon wing and landed safely on my seat, or killed a moving butterfly from 300 yards away with a throwing dagger. There are a lot of impossible (or at least unlikely) things in real life that can be done routinely by otherwise mundane characters in a fantasy RPG.
Letting a class reliant on expensive ammo make a supply of that ammo for themselves cheaply and easily is a pretty small thing game-wise. I think I could safely suspend my disbelief on that one.
|
blast it all now i want to take my throwing daggers out to the football field and try and prove ya wrong.
Everyone knows a dagger can only be shot at a maximum of 50 feet! :P :P :P
I beg you not to do this. You'd need to throw as hard as you would throw a baseball right? and I can imagine the resulting gash in your palm as you do this improperly...