RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Okay, HERE is my first rebuild of the gunslinger.
This rebuild takes the idea of grit and adds a discovery system. In this class, you have grit points to spend but you choose a new deed each even level to add to the ways you use grit.
Please look this over, critique it, comment here on it, let me know what you think. Most of all, help me to know what the minimum levels each deed should be taken at. If something is too high or too low, I would appreciate knowing that, because the next rebuild will rely on that information.
Developers, if I went too far in rebuilding the class, please, please, please let me know. I am new to playtesting for a publishing company, having my own homebrew games and material from friends as the only playtesting experience I have. I naturally do things differently then everyone else, and sometimes I have found I crossed lines I wasn't aware of.
If anyone playtests this, let me know even if you have nothing more to say then how you liked it.
Now, I need to sleep. I have work in 8 hours.
Far from perfect, needs plenty of adjusting and tuning and tweaking, but this is exactly the sort of change I think we need to see. A long list of deeds to choose from, some of which are only accesible at higher levels.
Perhaps 1 deed/level would be a good way of going about it.. perhaps more. Perhaps "lesser" and "greater" deeds, with access to all lesser per level, and choosing from a list of greater deeds, some of which are only available at certain levels.
More deeds is key to the class, IMO. Lots of them. Lets you build your own gunslinger to your own style and flavor, keeps it interesting.
Reloading: should be addressed, perhaps rapid reload as a starting feat.
Gunslinger specific weapon bonuses: I'd make gunslingers automatically add DEX modifier or maybe WIS modifier in damage to all firearm attacks starting at first level, removing it as part of gun training. Also, a system to reduce and remove misfire chances for free, otherwise Deeds to do so become a 'deed tax'.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Thanks! This is far from finished, as you said, but I only have time between jobs to really work on it. I hope to have at least all of the class features finished before Thursday.
1/deed per level might be a bit much, as we have bonus feats every other level already. There could be a feat that allows selection of an additional deed. That feat could be taken as many times as desired, but each time it would apply to a different deed.
I like the idea of the lesser and greater deeds. I will need to look through what is already there to see how to properly apply that.
I have a great many more deed ideas, like one that lets you attack two enemies in a line as long as they are in the first range increment, and a few that emulate trick shots.
Reloading: Yes. I hope to work that out with the Gun Training class feature.
I will have to look into if adding more would be overpowering the 1st level, as there are already a good number of class features available at 1st.
One lesser deed per level and one greater deed per 2 or 3 levels would be ideal, really. You just need to balance them out such that the lesser deeds add flavor and utility, while the greater deeds are the real damage/ability boosters.
Shoot unattended, blast lock, going prone, these can be lessers... Targeting and the like would be greater. In your examples, perhaps the feat that reduces TWF with pistols by -1 could be lesser, and the upgrade would then be greater.
With more deeds of two 'strengths' and choosing between the entire list, you can actually BUILD your gunfighter... some might be true ranged weapon specialists with scoped muskets dealing big damage on single shots every round, others might be swashbuckling about with a rapier in one hand and a pistol in the other, and some might be running into the middle of the melee with short-barreled blunderbust/shotguns- firing point blank and pistolwhipping left and right. If you're going to have one and only one class for "Gunslinger", then you need to provide a plethora of deeds and options to allow for a myriad of different builds.
Gun training I am guessing is the same as Weapon Training.
True grit I am imagining stays the same.
What is Gun Mastery? If it's the same as Weapon Mastery, giving a capstone ability that early seems unbalanced!
You don't think this class completely outshines the Fighter class as it stands, with the full feat spread and Grit/Deeds?
You've sacrificed Armor Mastery (which you weren't going to use anyway!) and bravery (not very impressive) for a system of bonus abilities, many of which are the equal of feats in themselves!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Aphazia:
Great advice, thanks for that. You may have noticed that I put in a few deed trees that had 3 deeds each, but the 2 deed sets might work better and provide more customization.
Purplefixer:
I almost always build my classes powerful, and then scale things back from there, but you are right. I do think this might outshine the fighter once I finish it, but I wont know until I finish it and playtest it.
Gun Mastery won't be as powerful as a capstone, but should compliment Gun Training. The Capstone ability should be a very power deed like ability.
How would you scale down some of the deeds? Should I cut the number of deeds or the number of feats?
As deeds are what actually makes it it's own 'thing', I suggest scaling back the feats.
Also, you may note that gun training raises something the gunslinger doesn't -really- need to raise anyway, the ability to hit. Perhaps Gun Training, to differentiate, could raise only damage? That was why I took the whole idea of it out of my version; it was uneccesary when put up beside the Dead Shot feature for bonus D8s of damage.
Gun Mastery could be the simple removal of AoO provocation from firing and reloading?
i wouldnt waste anymore effort on rewriting the gunslinger, its obvious the devs have a dud and are going to need to do major revamping.
Im sure its not even going to be remotely similar to what we are seeing.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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As deeds are what actually makes it it's own 'thing', I suggest scaling back the feats.
Also, you may note that gun training raises something the gunslinger doesn't -really- need to raise anyway, the ability to hit. Perhaps Gun Training, to differentiate, could raise only damage? That was why I took the whole idea of it out of my version; it was uneccesary when put up beside the Dead Shot feature for bonus D8s of damage.
Gun Mastery could be the simple removal of AoO provocation from firing and reloading?
Thanks, that helps a great deal. I plan on looking into a few ideas for Gun Training and Gun Mastery. The idea of removing AoO is at the top of my list, with the bonuses to hit being low. Damage and reload are a must.
With firearms being so expensive, I might have gun training function for one or two firearms, chosen by the gunslinger.
i wouldnt waste anymore effort on rewriting the gunslinger, its obvious the devs have a dud and are going to need to do major revamping.Im sure its not even going to be remotely similar to what we are seeing.
I am fine with a complete reworking with a finished product not at all similar to the current gunslinger. I wouldn't say that rebuilding the class is a waste of time though.
By reworking and rebuilding, we will have more material, and that means we will have a broader idea of what will and will not work. There is also the broader range of ideas that can be used in other material, like archetypes or feats. I figure, the more work I put into this, the more material and information the developers will have to work with.
Failure is always an option, because even then we have results and information. I just want to fail more then anyone else so that I can help find the winning solution.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I just realized I forgot to point out that my rebuilds are not huge deviations from the playtest gunslinger. I am looking into variations of a theme, and building on what is in the released material. I am not looking to creating wholly new class features, mixing them around, or scrapping the gunslinger class entirely, but I have and will continue to create deeds, which are only part of a class feature.
The experiments on different variations of the current theme will help fine tune information about what does and does not work. The first rebuild is really an "All or Nothing" class, where more is added to give as may options of customization as possible. Playing with it, combinations of deeds and feats can be explored to find which work well with each other, which would be popular, and which just are not worthy to be included. Things can be scaled back, but that is going to be done with the second, and should I have time, a third rebuild.
Right now, the overall message from the playtest community is that the gunslinger does not work. We have plenty of examples of specific reasons why, and only a few discussions on the overall big picture. I want to know and find out what combination of abilities would work the best together, as it is clear the current combination does not. Once I find out which combination (or that no combination) works, then we can look at completely new and different systems and ways of handling a class with a focus on guns. Then we will have that understanding of the big picture.
Right now, the overall message from the playtest community is that the gunslinger does not work. We have plenty of examples of specific reasons why, and only a few discussions on the overall big picture. I want to know and find out what combination of abilities would work the best together, as it is clear the current combination does not. Once I find out which combination (or that no combination) works, then we can look at completely new and different systems and ways of handling a class with a focus on guns. Then we will have that understanding of the big picture.
Exactly. We also need to find out if the Golarion Gunslinger (which may be different from the open source one) will be capable of getting and using revolver/multi-shot style weapons. (As it stands, the description of loading guns makes very little sense in a revolver-style weapon.) If they can't, the class needs to address the damage-per-round limitations of the gunslinger over the course of not one, but FIVE encounters a day. Grit is all well and good, but if you get only one shot a round anyway because you had to blow all your grit in the first encounter, your ability to contribute and have, you know, fun, plummets.
Point by Point:
*Gunslinger needs to fit the stated options of sniper or guns-blazing.
*Gunslinger needs to be an alternate but competitive option to the bow.
-This means damage and fun-factor for activities in the round need to be at least comparable.
*Gunslinger needs to either address or justify the 11gp/shot cost of guns as written.
I think grit, like Ki and Rage, is a great mechanic. Look to the old 3.5 warlock for your damage and utility potential, and skin those pistols right on like a wand, and I think you have yourself a winning class.
Gunslinger makes a poor fighter, in fact its not a fighter. It doesnt even use the same saves.
My argument has been to make it an alternate ranger.
The combat style matrix is already there for rangers (two weapon fighting, ranged weapon fighting would work just as fine for either the two gun fighter or the sniper)
Deeds/feats/abilities need to overlap and stack some way so that damage can go up by level.
The guns strength is crits, i hate to say this but it needs to be the exception to the crit rule, guns should be critting often. Because well essentially thats the only way guns do killing damage at all (IRL) the tiny ball doesnt do alot of tissue damage, the hole isnt big it doesnt cause you to bleed much. It punches through defenses and crits like crazy, the gunslinger should be able to have a crit range thats 17-20 on the x4, and have stackable abilities that add to damage, so when it doesnt crit, its mediocre or weak, when it does, things die, and fast.
This route the ranger type would be best, with an animal companion or a lone side kick. Class skills and skill ranks are a better fit too.
Now if this route (for whatever reason) can't be followed (and i dont see why not) then the route to go is GunMage..ie a gunslinger based off the alchemist class that keeps bombs, can make its own gun powder andx bullets and add effects to the bullets to make them poisonous, explosive, whatever. All these gizmos can be alchemical and non magical, an alchemist gunner wouldnt not be able to make extracts as he doesnt do potions, he does stuff with guns.
Other routes will not work IMO
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Other routes will not work IMO
Good points, and I like the idea of several classes being given an alternate or archetype that utilizes guns. I would use everyone of them in a campaign setting I am working on.
Should I have time (I don't think I will though,) I would love to play around with rearranging the gunslinger to better fit a ranger alternate class. What are your thoughts on a ranger archetype who, instead of a animal companion or side kick, but has a favored firearm? Or a favored firearm instead of a favored terrain?
What are your thoughts on gunslinger being their own base class and not an alternate class?
Other routes will not work IMO
Good points, and I like the idea of several classes being given an alternate or archetype that utilizes guns. I would use everyone of them in a campaign setting I am working on.
Should I have time (I don't think I will though,) I would love to play around with rearranging the gunslinger to better fit a ranger alternate class. What are your thoughts on a ranger archetype who, instead of a animal companion or side kick, but has a favored firearm? Or a favored firearm instead of a favored terrain?
What are your thoughts on gunslinger being their own base class and not an alternate class?
I think the Devs want it to be a fighter archetype because they are trying to block people from dipping into gunslinger and then take bunches of fighter levels.
Favored firearm sounds like bonded weapon to me.
maybe something more like "specialized firearm" Ie a specific firearm optimized for a special purpose...like a buffalo rifle, better at shooting long distance and hitting hard against buffalo, it would be closer to favored enemy, it would be kinda cool to combine favored enemy and terrain into a specific firearm so that gun got the bonuses of both
and that gunslinger could have a collection (almost like a golf bag full of clubs) where he uses specific guns for specific purposes...) , something like that could be a fun.
Trouble is a normal ranger can use his enemy and terrain bonuses with any weapon, so limiting it to a specific gun would be nerfing the power, so what would you do? maybe double the bonus?
I also like the idea of a gunslinger challenge (ill meet you at high noon! or are you yellow??)
I really really like the Idea of a gunslinger (ranger) an alchemy Gunner (alchemist) and a PRC combining aspects of the two! Call me crazy.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I just added hit points, skills, skill points, gun training 1-4, gun mastery, and true grit. I also decided to switch true grit and gun mastery after deciding that gun mastery was more powerful and thus more fitting to be a capstone class feature.
My next step is to add a few more deeds, delete a few of the less useful deeds, and rewrite them to include level limitations on the more powerful abilities. A few of the more powerful abilities might even be rewritten to be better balanced.
I just added hit points, skills, skill points, gun training 1-4, gun mastery, and true grit. I also decided to switch true grit and gun mastery after deciding that gun mastery was more powerful and thus more fitting to be a capstone class feature.
My next step is to add a few more deeds, delete a few of the less useful deeds, and rewrite them to include level limitations on the more powerful abilities. A few of the more powerful abilities might even be rewritten to be better balanced.
alchemy gunner should be able to still have bombs and have a special launcher that tosses them farther (like a vietnam style grenade launcher) and a discovery that allows him to add bomb damage to bullets (exploding bullets)
Hey, I just posted some changes to the Gunslinger on the
Gunslinger Review - Gunslinger, Guns, Core Classes (Multi-Part)
post. I included all of your new Deeds in it too CalebTGordan. Go check it out. I'd link to it, but have no idea how.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Cool! Thanks for letting me know. I have a couple more Deeds I never put into the blog post. Life ended up taking my attention away from the project.
For example, I was playing with the idea of trick shots. One in particular would allow an item to be thrown and then shot. The idea was that flasks of acid or alchemists fire would be used to add energy damage to the attack. The problem is designing how the action worked, and I ended up having to set it aside as life took its turns these last couple weeks.
While I have a chance to, I did playtest the RAW gunslinger and my own. The big difference is the in the RAW the number of feats were low while the number of deeds were high. In my own, the opposite is true. High number of feats with low number of deeds. Also the RAW had fixed deeds, while my own as customizable.
What did this mean in playtests?
After a half dozen encounters at levels ranging from level 1 to 15, I found that a gunslinger with more feats would be able to compete better with other character classes of similar levels. A low amount of feats but more deeds gave the gunslinger more specialized actions that only applied every so often. Many times the specialized situations never came up in a combat. The ability to choose deeds did help, but it was clear that there needed to be limitations on which feats could be taken at different levels.
The ability to choose deeds also helped the gunslinger in filling a specific role, such as mid range sharpshooter or close range blaster. The lack of choice made me feel like the class was pigeon holing me into something.