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So I have a player who constantly uses Fireball and puts it at a point in the air so it will hit the heads of enemies and avoid more party members.
I find this incredibly annoying to try and work out on the battlemat. I could put the boot down and just say no, but it would probably cause me just as much of a headache.
Any suggestions?
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So I have a player who constantly uses Fireball and puts it at a point in the air so it will hit the heads of enemies and avoid more party members.
I find this incredibly annoying to try and work out on the battlemat. I could put the boot down and just say no, but it would probably cause me just as much of a headache.
Any suggestions?
Well, I'm not sure just how accurate this would be, but what about having the effective radius of the effect reduced by 5 ft (at least on the surface of the battlemap) for every 5 ft the center is above the battlemat (1st 5' elevation is free, and doesn't subtract)? So, if the fireball is placed 15 feet above the ground, it only affects a 10 foot radius on the ground. If it's 20 feet above the ground, it only affects a 10 foot by 10 foot square at ground level.
Also, make certain that each and every enemy caster is just as picky about the placement of their area effects as your player is.
So I have a player who constantly uses Fireball and puts it at a point in the air so it will hit the heads of enemies and avoid more party members.
I find this incredibly annoying to try and work out on the battlemat. I could put the boot down and just say no, but it would probably cause me just as much of a headache.
Any suggestions?
What is wrong with that? The assumes people knows where 5 foot squares end. If not how can people avoid AoO's if they don't know where the monster's reach is. Why is it so hard to work out. All he has to do is count the squares/hexes.
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My suggestion would be to put the onus on the player. Tell him if he wants to do elaborate 3d spellcasting, it's fine. But he needs to create a *prop* scaled to your battlemat increments so that he can just hold it up, lower it down, and call it out there.
Legos tend to work well for this.
Or just change fireball to firedisk :p
Well tonight was giants =p
The player came out with a interesting way of using the spell. Do not punish the player for this. Just fill this away under notes for latter.
The next time the PC are fighting a Kobolt or Halfing Sorcerer with fireball. The kobolts will have an advantage over the Giant humans, Dwarfs, and Elves who are 5 feet taller than them.
As long as both side can use the tactic, it should all work out.
My suggestion would be to put the onus on the player. Tell him if he wants to do elaborate 3d spellcasting, it's fine. But he needs to create a *prop* scaled to your battlemat increments so that he can just hold it up, lower it down, and call it out there.
Legos tend to work well for this.
Or just change fireball to firedisk :p
Bah<dwarf voice>. It is not even elaborate. It is actually no different than placing the fireball in any other matter. I think the DM is very visual though, and since the maps are horizontal he has trouble picturing vertical squares.
So how many DM cheat, and just draw a 20 foot radius on the hex map.. instead of figuring out all the squares.
And if it explodes at ground level, how many DM, take the time to map out all that extra 1/2 sphere that now has to spread out at ground level or above.
(well unless they are mapping in dungeons).
Just something to keep in mind, if your a new DM.
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So how many DM cheat, and just draw a 20 foot radius on the hex map.. instead of figuring out all the squares.
Bah! I don't consider that a cheat. Prior to 3.X giving us rules for it, didn't most of us draw 20' radius circles on the map? I find it less wonky than the weird lego block fireballs we have now.
My house-rules for fireballs and area effects:
Draw the area effect on the map. If a character is in a square that didn't get fully affected, he gets a +2 on his save.
Any suggestions?
Change the dungeon so that the ceiling is 10 feet tall?
If you really care about fireball range in 3D, you might want to apply the pythagoream theorem a dozen times figuring out the distance. The math can get quite annoying because a spot that is one square back, one square to the side, and one square up is ~8.9 feet away. Do you call that at 10ft or 5ft? If you go 2 squares out, it's ~17.8. If you do regular rounding that's 20ft. If you try to reconstruct that distance though by moving along the planes, the RAW would call it at 25ft (two straight moves and 2 diagonal moves) which is clearly way off. Just ask them to not try this with a widened fireball.
So I have a player who constantly uses Fireball and puts it at a point in the air so it will hit the heads of enemies and avoid more party members.
I find this incredibly annoying to try and work out on the battlemat. I could put the boot down and just say no, but it would probably cause me just as much of a headache.
Any suggestions?
Frankly I think maybe you should not be annoyed by this. This is a compeltely valid and smart use of the spell and has been done since the fireball spell first was printed, at least in my experience.
Why WOULDN'T you aim high with such a spell on larger creatures? Magic spells are amazing accurate, which is why in most cases they require no 'to hit' roll or if they do, roll to hit touch ac.
If you really want to make it harder for this tactic to succeed then maybe consider a touch attack roll to get it timed and placed right, or a spell craft check versus a DC you decide on give how difficult you think it is to do.
But honestly, I think this is an absolutely valid use of the spell and one of the flaws of being a larger than medium sized creature. Just like you can aim at any square of a large target with a bow and thereby not 'fire into a melee' where a party member is fighting that same creature the same concept should work with spells.
Valid tactic in a ruleset that allows for pinpoint precision with explosives.
Showing off the airburst on a 2d plane.
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2562/atacknuke.gif
Here is my best guesses for a fireball airburst in 3D.
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7662/3dfireball.gif OR http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4580/3d2015105.gif
Counting squares rather than measuring steals area from a 20' radius. That theft does have to be replicated in 3d to achieve a proper result.
Its also a great way to dial the radius of the overly large 3.5 Entangle spell.
Valid tactic in a ruleset that allows for pinpoint precision with explosives.
Showing off the airburst on a 2d plane.
http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/2562/atacknuke.gifHere is my best guesses for a fireball airburst in 3D.
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7662/3dfireball.gif OR http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4580/3d2015105.gifCounting squares rather than measuring steals area from a 20' radius. That theft does have to be replicated in 3d to achieve a proper result.
Its also a great way to dial the radius of the overly large 3.5 Entangle spell.
The first gif is correct.
Yar.
The spell description even states:
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst.
Bolding is mine.
It is valid, supported by RAW, and is something that I actually encourage players to utilize more often.
I find that it's with spells that are longer than instantaneous that figuring out exactly where it's dimensions are become more vital and complex, especially if it's a cloud that shifts or is a spread or a sustained shapeable effect based on x cubic feat per caster level. But even then, I don't find it much of a problem (although, I am a big fan of battle mats, maps, complex tactics, accurate positioning, etc).
~P
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My suggestion would be to put the onus on the player. Tell him if he wants to do elaborate 3d spellcasting, it's fine. But he needs to create a *prop* scaled to your battlemat increments so that he can just hold it up, lower it down, and call it out there.
Legos tend to work well for this.
Or just change fireball to firedisk :p
I use the "firedisk" method in my game, but that is because I thought that is how the spell worked. The reason being that certain spells specifically state if they have a height, and the fireball spell just says 20-ft radius (as opposed to "20-ft radius, 20 ft high"), so I figured it was a flat fireball.
And I do allow my players to aim high with the fireball, but not just at head level. It is based on a 5 ft square, so the fireball can explode in the higher 5-ft square level that only the top half of the giants are in, and leave the medium characters unharmed below.
Assuming a 3D world here, if it has "20-ft radius, 20 ft high" it isn't a sphere (like Fire), it is a cylinder (like Flame Strike). Also, if you read the Magic Rules:
Fireball
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a ball of bat guano and sulfur)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
Seems pretty cut and dry that Fireball is a sphere, at least RAW-wise.
Fluff-wise, it's a sphere. Strictly RAW, it's a wonky, blocky "sphere" that looks likes it's made of giant 5 ft. lego blocks.
So, when is someone going to make a Pathfinder mod for Minecraft? :D
I'm going to agree with several others, and say that I think the player should be allowed to do this. Ingenuity and thinking outside the box(es) shouldn't be punished, in my opinion. The game has to be fun for everyone. You get to control the entire world, let him (or her) control the placement of his (or her) fireball.
There are 2 easy ways to handle this:
method 1: reduce the fireball radius by 5 feet per 5 feet of elevation change.
method 2 like horizontal movement, the "odd squares" (1st, 3rd, 5th, etc) count as 5 feet, the "even squares" (2nd, 4th, 6th, etc.) count as 10 feet. So in terms of radius, the 1st 5 feet of elevation, the radius is reduced by 1 square. The 2nd 5 feet of elevation, the radius is reduced by an additional 2 squares.
Both of these will result in diamond-shaped fireballs, but it will keep the game moving relatively quickly. Yes, it's a fireBALL, but not all balls are round (see: american football). Also, not all explosions are perfectly spherical. For a visual, watch the Death Star explosion in the special edition of Star Wars: A New Hope. There is a concussion ring, rather than a perfect sphere of force.
My point being, just hand-wave minor inconsistancies, and keep the game moving. But don't penalize a player for thinking of a new way to do things. It keeps the game interesting for everyone at the table.