I've been running CotCT for over a year (weekly or bi-weekly sessions); my PCs are 9th level, and halfway through History of Ashes. Reading these threads, I've noticed a lot about player fatigue hitting late in this chapter, or early in Scarwall. I think it's starting to happen to my group, and I'm looking for advice.
There's a sidebar in HoA about the "chain quest" nature of the module. Rather than taking its advice to shave some of the mini-quests away, I wrote them all out for my players on a board near the gaming table. I thought this clarity would help keep them motivated, but it only served to emphasize how far away they are from any meaningful accomplishments.
When they reached the Lyrune-Quah and were asked to defeat the Red Reaver, one player got up and added a new link to the chain. He marked it "Bulls**t Side Quest." It was a joke, but I could sense the frustration underneath.
I'd really like the finale of Ashes to be memorable, and I REALLY hope I don't have to curtail or cut Scarwall, because it looks like a great old-fashioned dungeon-crawl. But I'm worried about losing their interest if they don't get back on track towards Korvosa and Ileosa soon.
Any thoughts? Similar experiences?
When I ran the module I was leery of the complaints, but afterwards I really didn't understand them. You have to go through more things to get to the end of Seven Days to the Grave. And I thought History of Ashes was a relatively short module. I think we played through it in 3 and 1/2, 4 or so sessions.
On top of that, I felt, yeah, it should be hard, the native people should hate them, then get to know them, think they're brave, then accept them as brothers of their tribe. This shouldn't be something they can do by just asking or killing one guy. It helped make the Shoanti more real to them. On top of that my players love bad-ass NPCs and mock non-bad-ass NPCs, so Krojun Eats-What-He-Kills participating in combat with them, rolling multiple crit confirms and booming his name was an excellent example of a bad-ass NPC. They hated him to begin with but liked him by the end. And of course I have Trinia Sabor all stowing away on their wagon, getting caught and joining them, and I got to show the PCs Kaer Maga. Good to get out of the house every so often.
Of course, the module does suffer due to it's sudden removal from Korvosa, and certain plot threads were frayed because of it. That's a big complaint, and one I have first-hand experience of. It ended up disconnecting the PCs from certain ideas and concepts. I would've preferred the AP to stay in Korvosa, but I liked Scarwall too much. In retrospect it would've been fine for me to drop #4, add in content staying in the city for #4, and then run #5 with the basis that the PCs would find the clues to get to #5 from #4.
I know some of my players read my posts, so maybe if you guys told me what you thought it would help out?
I'm a current player in CotCT, we've actually just gotten out of a History of Ashes and are (I think) 3/4th of the way thru Skeletons of Scarwall.
I can honestly say I do understand where everyone is coming from. I love the Paizo adventures, and CotCT is no exception, but HoA struck me as a particular low point in the history of the series.
Then he sends us to the Skoan-Quah, who say they have no idea and to speak with the Sklar-Quah. But first we have to prove ourselves them by getting eaten by a giant worm. But before that we have to get a Truthspeaker from the Lyrune-Quah, because otherwise they wont believe us. But before that we have to get this Sphere-walkers Mark so that the Lyrune will help us. Then, after we've got the Mark, the Truthspeaker, been eaten by the worm after having to dance around in front of it(hurting it but being careful not to kill it!), and finally reach the Sklar-Quah they tell us they have to commune with their ancestors. Not that anything we've done up until that point maters. No, then we have to do ANOTHER test!
The problem ends up being that, by the time we get the info, no one cares anymore. The side quests suck the excitement right out of it, because we don't feel like we're accomplishing anything. It feels like we're spinning our tires while the Queen grows in power.
Now the constructive side!
First off, have Cindermaw actually pop out of the ground and eat the party. There's nothing fun about having to pull punches trying to get the worm angry enough that it will eat us, without accidently killing the thing. Our cleric had to heal the stupid thing! Plus, have it eat the whole party. I know in our game it only needed to eat one person, but that felt kinda cheap.
Second, either lose the second trial the players have to go thru (the one on the mesa) or make it part of the ritual to talk to the spirits. It felt like crap to have the Sun Shaman come up to us and say "yeah, your thing with Cindermaw was cool, but you still aren't one of us. Now go get sunburned on this rock..." Instead have it be the ritual to find out where the sword is. Drop the fight with the Bulletes and have the sprits appear at the end like they do that the start of the next book. If you're worried about the players leaving before the big final fight have the Sklar throw a party in their honor. You know, a good 'job well done' pat on the head. Hell, it'll be that much cooler when they smash the Red Mantis in front of their new found buddies!
Well, I hope that longwinded answer helped. I hope this doesn't give you the impression that I haven't enjoyed these games, because I have. But every AP has a low point, and this was sadly it. Good luck, and let us know how things turn out!
Spoiler:First off, have Cindermaw actually pop out of the ground and eat the party. There's nothing fun about having to pull punches trying to get the worm angry enough that it will eat us, without accidently killing the thing. Our cleric had to heal the stupid thing! Plus, have it eat the whole party. I know in our game it only needed to eat one person, but that felt kinda cheap.
I'm a current player in CotCT, we've actually just gotten out of a History of Ashes and [it] struck me as a particular low point in the history of the series.
Most of this comes from the feeling of getting nothing accomplished...
Thanks for the player observation Valcrist. That is great feedback. I'm DMing this Adventure Path right now, and I'll use your advice when my group gets to that section. I'll post on how it goes. Thanks.
Great feedbeack everyone. I to am preparing to run CoCT and find this very intersting and helpful. I was wondering if any of the groups had a Shoanti PC? I gave a big DM hint that a shoanti PC would be very rewarding and one of my players took on the challange. I think this will help mitigate some of the weariness, as she will have a motivation outside of the main plot focus. Any comments/
Good point Magnuskn. Our party doesn't have a Wizard, so I may have overlooked that.
In that case maybe having one player stand out in the open, painted up and ready to be eaten would be fine. But I'd also say that he was the only one accepted into the Quah. Sure it does a bit of the "chosen Player" thing, but almost all of the Adventure Paths do.
I do think if you give a wizard a turn or three to buff they could probably get themselves out. Heck, just have the Cleric case Freedom of Movement on him. Heh, I love that spell!
Great feedbeack everyone. I to am preparing to run CoCT and find this very intersting and helpful. I was wondering if any of the groups had a Shoanti PC? I gave a big DM hint that a shoanti PC would be very rewarding and one of my players took on the challange. I think this will help mitigate some of the weariness, as she will have a motivation outside of the main plot focus. Any comments/
Actually I'm playing a Shoanti half-orc of the Lyrune-Quah. I think it did help to a degree, mostly because I read over the Shoanti section and played it up. While it wasn't incorporated much(we were in a bit of a time crunch) I did find it interesting.
As I stated above, it may cause a bit of the "Chosen Player" but I think having the Shoanti character be the one to join the Sklar-Quah would be cool. And while it may seem like their getting more focus, keep in mind how out of their element they would have been for the first three books. Think of it as a reward for sticking it out for a cool regional race!
So my suggestion is to go for it, and maybe give the player a hand out with info on the Shoanti. I was a particularly big fan of the phrases in their native language.
Good point Magnuskn. Our party doesn't have a Wizard, so I may have overlooked that.
In that case maybe having one player stand out in the open, painted up and ready to be eaten would be fine. But I'd also say that he was the only one accepted into the Quah. Sure it does a bit of the "chosen Player" thing, but almost all of the Adventure Paths do.
I do think if you give a wizard a turn or three to buff they could probably get themselves out. Heck, just have the Cleric case Freedom of Movement on him. Heh, I love that spell!
That pre-supposes that the party has a Cleric. :p Ours didn't, so I went with the "only one guy has to do it" hook. In the end, the Paladin and the Rogue went in, because both wanted to prove their worth. The Rogue almost got digested, because he rolled abismally and couldn't even hit Cindermaw from inside for two rounds. :D The party Wizard decided to try an illusion to fool Truthspeaker Akram into thinking he had jumped into the maw of the giant worm and cut himself out, which surprisingly, given Akrams Will save, worked.
That pre-supposes that the party has a Cleric. :p Ours didn't, so I went with the "only one guy has to do it" hook. In the end, the Paladin and the Rogue went in, because both wanted to prove their worth. The Rogue almost got digested, because he rolled abismally and couldn't even hit Cindermaw from inside for two rounds. :D The party Wizard decided to try an illusion to fool Truthspeaker Akram into thinking he had jumped into the maw of the giant worm and cut himself out, which surprisingly, given Akrams Will save, worked.
Heh. True enough. You never know what kinda party you're looking at when you're getting ready to run these kinda things. I remember back in the day when you'd be crazy not to have the BIG 4 (Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, and Wizard). Course, back then we called them Mages and Thieves and Priests... And you had to walk 15 miles to the dungeon! Up hill! Both ways! In the snow! And we liked it that way! *laughs*
Plus, just goes to show that anyone can fail a save, and from time to time it works for the players instead of against them.
I was wondering if any of the groups had a Shoanti PC? I gave a big DM hint that a shoanti PC would be very rewarding and one of my players took on the challange.
I played a Shoanti (Sklar-Quah) Cleric of Gorum. (Strength & Destruction) He was a shaman-apprentice self-removed from his tribe due to a family issue. (younger brother was drug addicted, Shiver(LINK), see player's guide traits). The general concept was the strong silent type, leaning towards becoming Skoan-Quah (skull clan) eventually.
Skoan-Quah was also a suggestion of mine to someone else looking to play a voodoo witch doctor style character in CotCT. Each Quah is relatively distinct in it's RP possibilities, one of the modules has a few descriptive pages that can be printed out for the players or found online. Shoanti(LINK)
This was my 2nd time through the module and my role was basically that of healbot(who also doubled as the shield/fullplate tank in an otherwise dex-based party), so I could provide little in the way of input, furthering the 'strong silent' thing. However in choosing Shoanti it provides the party a roleplay "IN" for quite a few NPCs and I'm pretty sure I didn't ruin any plot points.
This is a great thread for GMs of the AP with all the player feedback. One question I have for the veteran CotCT players out there...
Our Varisian Ranger had MANY reasons to stay in town, a future cohort (veteran dwarf marine/background story) in the now de-commissioned Sable Company, his Hippogrif Companion and overall loyalty to Cressida as a soldier (being a former Sable marine looking for a new commander to follow).
Our Quadiran Fighter/Rogue(Dervish) made it well known he was romantically interested in Sabina, lavishing her with precious baubles found throughout our adventures. He was also something of an apprentice to Vincarlo Orsini, being a similiar style fighter they made something of a connection.
My Shoanti Cleric's only interest was that Thousand Bones had made it out of the city okay, which Cressida had assured him of. Other than that he was really just going with the flow. (Also as I was not allowed to "steer" the party being my 2nd time through.)
Niether group ever got particularly involved with DeVargo, kind of a bummer in hindsight as there was potential there for the not-so-good characters, but the AP was fun both times regardless.
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+10 to Shoanti PCs making HoA easier. I was actually quite relieved when we had a player jump on board at the end of Escape from Old Korvosa as a Shoanti. Then another joined right after. Things flowed much more easily than if it had only been the Korvosan natives that started the campaign.
The Cinderlander helped a lot as well, but I don't think how I used him would be of use to most folks.
It was too good to not use, but I couldn't be that mean. Turned out that Varisian h/e and Shoanti h/e's fathers were brothers, along with a third, who married a Chelish woman and started a family with her. Third brother's family was killed during a Skoan-Quah raid. Third brother became the Cinderlander. The other brothers went after him to stop him. Things went bad. Varisian h/e's father was supposedly killed, Shoanti h/e's father went into self-imposed exile from his family's Quah, and the Cinderlander only got worse. It pulled the party together more tightly and gave them a burning desire to see a common enemy with the Shoanti put in the dead book.
About Cindermaw
This is a great thread for GMs of the AP with all the player feedback. One question I have for the veteran CotCT players out there:
** spoiler omitted **
It was the fifth book that really kind of wore thin on them. At first some players were "Woo! Dungeon crawl!" But Scarwall did start to overstay its welcome for some of the players, and eventually all of them. They just now finished it, and are burning to get back to Korvosa ASAP.
I really am enjoying this thread. I really think fatigue is a good thing. If you players are fatigued in Ashes or Scarwell or of being hounded in an unfriendly Korvosa it is a very good thing. It means the story is starting to effect the PC's on emotional level. The PC's shold be beat down, emotionally spent by all of the drama they have lived through in Chapters 1 - 3, and then to have to leave their homes and loved ones to go into the unfamiliar hot-ass wilderness on another crazy quest to find out some legend to hopefully save their city. Heck yeah that is fatiguing. As a DM we shold use that to our advantage spin it like PTSD or similar disorder.
It happened to my PC's in Shackled City when the constant strain of being Cauldron's Legion of Justice just had some of them ready to crack. I ran City of the Spider Queen, and my PC's were underground so long that they litterly quit on the quest, teleported to the Dales land and took a vacation. Their psyche after being underground for 3 months was burnt, especially the elf and the halfling. It made me feel great, because that is exactly how I believed they should feel, and that's what makes RPG's so different than other games.
I really think fatigue is a good thing ... It means the story is starting to effect the PC's on emotional level ... As a DM we shold use that to our advantage spin it like PTSD or similar disorder.
I see what you're saying, Walter, but I think there's a difference between role-playing fatigue and actually FEELING fatigued. I love the psychodrama of characters pushed to the breaking point (I, too, had a few great cases of that when I ran Shackled City several years ago). But to make that work, you need an adventure that makes players feel as though they are making progress, however slowly/painfully.
When my PCs left Korvosa at the end of Ch.3 (exiled by the queen), they felt railroaded into what has become a very long series of chain quests. Intellectually, they knew they couldn't (weren't supposed to) defeat Ileosa at this point (they didn't even stay to fight the Arkonas). But they still seem frustrated that the module is making them go to such great lengths to achieve a MacGuffin that can be used to win the campaign.
This might be a poor comparison, but I'm reminded of the scene in The Two Towers (the film, not the book) when Faramir dragged Frodo and Sam to Osgiliath, when they knew they should be heading straight to Mordor. How can anyone get invested in the politics of one petty struggle when they know there's a much greater evil that grows stronger by the day?
** spoiler omitted **
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** spoiler omitted **
My second group I let attend, but I made it clear that they were in the back of a large group of people. They had a very strong connection to Marcus (a change I made that was accentuated by a Sable Marine in the group) Cressida arranged for them to attend but was unable to get them moved up from the very back of the spectators. By the time they got far enough forward there was nothing left but a body and enough Grey Maidens to ruin their day.
This is a great thread for GMs of the AP with all the player feedback. One question I have for the veteran CotCT players out there:
I gotta say that it detracts a bit from the story. Maybe if you find a way to keep them up to speed on what's happening back in Korvosa. Perhaps with Sending spells from that Cleric of Abadar... I can't remember his name. Of maybe Dream spells from a Wizard mentor.
Anyway, take whatever steps you feel like taking, just make certain that the PC's remember what they're fighting for!
I've seen this comment a few times. My players are starting chap 3 but I do want to avoid them feeling this way when we get to chapter 4 and 5. I have read through chapter 4 and it doesn't seem like a grind to me just by reading it. Maybe it plays differently? I'm glad I'm aware of the complaint now though.
One thing I do want to disagree with though is it doesn't seem to me like the object of the quest is truly a "MacGuffin" since it is very necessary if not required for the end game. To me a MacGuffin is strictly a plot device with no actual impact. From what I have read at least, the object of the quest has actual game and story impact.
Finally another question for veteran players and GMs out there:
** spoiler omitted **
I'm not quite certain if I'd call the book 5 object a MacGuffin either. My group and I haven't gotten it yet (we are still in Scarwall) but it seems important. I feel a little let down that it's an object only one person can use. I was holding out hope for something a little more like the Runeforged weapons from Rise of the Runelords.
In answer to the Marcus question, we were not present at the party. We didn't actually hear about the events until later. I felt a little let down, like we weren't there just because we would have tried to stop it.
I'd maybe change it to a public address (perhaps on the steps to the castle), and have the party there, but too far away to stop anything. I mean the attack is sudden, and over quite shortly there after. Just for good measure I'd put her behind a Wall of Force for protection from the Masses. She seems just paranoid(rightly) enough to do that.
Well, one way to at least keep Scarwall tied thematically to Korvosa is to have it "re-manifest" directly atop Citadel Vraith. :p I did that and, uh, just glossed over some story discrepancies. The group was still pretty happy to return to Korvosa and interact with their NPC friends again, before setting off to clean out the castle.
** spoiler omitted **
Early on they were suspicious of everyone, including Marcus. They thought he might have had something to do with the Senechal's disappearance (Power grab). After he gave them a couple jobs to do with Cressida they came around, and right before the big scene he had visited them and they noticed his negative mood (almost like a goodbye). It worked to have them more into the scene and have an impact.
I'd say the objects in question is/are a Macguffin. Went and looked this up and here is what I get.
The term is originally attributed to Alfred Hitchcock.
A MacGuffin (sometimes McGuffin or maguffin) is "a plot element that catches the viewers' attention or drives the plot of a work of fiction". The defining aspect of a MacGuffin is that the major players in the story are (at least initially) willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to obtain it, regardless of what the MacGuffin actually is. In fact, the specific nature of the MacGuffin may be ambiguous, undefined, generic, left open to interpretation or otherwise completely unimportant to the plot. Common examples are money, victory, glory, survival, a source of power, or a potential threat, or it may simply be something entirely unexplained.
Multiple MacGuffins are sometimes referred to as plot coupons.
At first I thought this thread was splitting into two unrelated topics, but then I realized they are very closely entwined.
Regarding the Marcus/Ileosa incident:
My PCs got the report second-hand from a number of reliable NPCs. Since each eyewitness mentioned the crown, they concluded that it was the source of her new power. But that led them to believe that, if they snatched it off her head, she would be vulnerable again. Many NPCs (Venclaro, Neolandus, Trinia) had to repeat "Too risky! Too uncertain!" until they got the hint that this plan was not going to work.
If the PCs are present, they might try to intervene. Maybe that's actually a good thing. Then they would know first-hand that they couldn't defeat Ileosa without powerful magical aid. They would, of course, risk death, but that's the nature of the game. If they survived, they'd be wanted criminals, but they could still hide in Old Korvosa for a stint before heading off to exile.
Regarding the MacGuffin:
Right now, as I struggle to get through Ashes, the problem is that Serithial is a Mystery MacGuffin -- the PCs don't even know what they're hunting for yet. They're just jumping through hoops in the hopes of finding someone who might know what their quest ought to be.
As a result of being in the dark for so long, the PCs have had plenty of time to propose other plans, including: staying in Kaer Maga permanently; joining the Shoanti in their siege against Korvosa; or (when the Shoanti showed hostility) commandeering an army of desert orcs, crushing the Shoanti, and demanding to know the secrets of Midnight's Teeth.
And my PCs are GOOD-ALIGNED.
I should finish by saying it's not all that bad. My players are still having a good time overall (or else they wouldn't keep playing). They like the atmosphere of the Cinderlands, and they've enjoyed fighting some new monsters (not enough beasties in the city). But I am still looking for ways to hasten them back to Korvosa, lest their patience run out.
Sorry to blather, but I have to share what happened at our game last night, when my PCs faced Cindermaw.
The PCs first learned about Cindermaw from Thousand Bones, the Skoan-Quah shaman. He was explicit about the legend of Skurak, who "dove inside the beast and cut his way out" to be reborn. But this conversation happened several weeks ago (for the players), so when they set off with Akram the Truthspeaker, they asked for a re-cap.
Except the question they asked this time was, "What's the deal with Cindermaw?" So I had Akram relate the legendary origins of the worm: that it devoured part of a subterranean temple, including a portal to the Plane of Fire. Although Akram said this was mere supposition, it led the PCs to leap to an odd conclusion: "There's probably some sort of portal in its stomach, which leads to some sort of mini-dungeon on a different plane."
These are the same PCs who have been complaining about "bulls**t side quests," so they were probably meta-gaming from that position. I had Akram shrug and say, "I am here but to record the truth."
So, the whole party buffs up with fire resistance and, when the worm surfaces, they all leap into the open mouth -- an option that the adventure AW seems to discourage, although I don't know why. They all rolled high Acrobatics checks, so I moved them all into the mouth (for one round of biting damage), and then into the stomach (for constriction, fire and stomach acid).
Upon finding no sign of a mini-dungeon, the PCs were confused. Rather than hacking their way directly out of the worm, they began trying to push their way FURTHER DOWN INSIDE IT, thinking that Fire Gate must be just past the next sphincter. They were especially shocked by all my descriptions of peristalsis and stomach juices. One PC said, "I didn't expect it to be so...organic."
After 2 or 3 rounds sustaining heavy damage, the party's wizard said "Screw this" and unloaded two Cone of Colds on the beast. Then everyone cut or teleported their way out (except the rogue, who cast Grease on herself and squirmed all the way out the back exit). Once outside, the disgruntled wizard tossed a lightning bolt back at the retreating worm, and that was the end of it.
This time, the players seemed to enjoy themselves, but the characters claimed to have been deceived by Akram. It's like they wanted their money back for going on a bogus ride. I couldn't resist responding OOC: "You JUMPED down a giant worm's THROAT. What were you expecting, Space Mountain?"
Sorry to blather, but I have to share what happened at our game last night, when my PCs faced Cindermaw.
** spoiler omitted **...
That's incredibly funny. :D
Sorry to blather, but I have to share what happened at our game last night, when my PCs faced Cindermaw.
** spoiler omitted **...
Holy @$^$! That is freaking awesome! I know it's odd and sidetracked, but it's stories like those that your players will remember for years to come. So great job on rolling with crazy player antics!
Sorry to blather, but I have to share what happened at our game last night, when my PCs faced Cindermaw.
** spoiler omitted **...
It's stories like this that make me feel like I absolutely can not omit this adventure from the AP.
Skeletons of Scarwall on the other hand can go.
I dont think you should either. It is a great chapter PC's get to interact with the Shoanti, the cinderlands is a wicked cool environment, and you have an opportunity to press the players on their political and eithical views on the native population which could have serious repercussions for Korvosa when they take out the BBEBG in the end game.
Sorry to blather, but I have to share what happened at our game last night, when my PCs faced Cindermaw.
** spoiler omitted **...
It's stories like this that make me feel like I absolutely can not omit this adventure from the AP.
Skeletons of Scarwall on the other hand can go.
Skeletons of Scarwall's main issue is that aside from being the holding locale for the MacGuffin, its not really linked to the rest of the AP. A History of Ashes actually links very well to the AP as its all about Korvosa's hinterland and its past. That said the adventure as written does not include quite enough of that history and current tensions before the players leave to visit the Shointi. Its a really good idea for a DM to make the players interested in the people they will be interacting with before they come in contact with said peoples. I've screwed up and failed in this regard in a campaign in the past (not CotCT) and its really hard on the players motivations and lessens the sense of story for them. Make sure they know who and what the Shointi are as major players in the region before they choose to embark on A History of Ashes. Build the Shointi into the campaign organically right from the start.
Skeletons of Scarwall on the other hand can go.
I'm just gonna say that as a player I've really enjoyed Skeletons of Scarwall. After History of Ashes it's nice to just let loose and kill some #^$&ing monsters! That and it's a well constructed and paced adventure. It has a lot of that classic dungeon crawl feel that many of the AP's seem to lack in. Maybe just try to find a way to tie it in better...
A common thread to this is getting the PCs out of Korvosa. I haven't even finished the first book, but it occurred to me that you a viable option might be to...
Luckily, one of the PCs allies comes to the rescue and let the PCs escape so you either have a chase scene, or simply have them use magic to leave the prison directly from their cell.
Now the PCs were able to carry out their foolish plan. They've suffered in game consequences and have learnt they can't face the Queen yet. But they now know if they go on the various Quests they'll eventually get the key to destroying the Queen and getting their revenge.
From a player perspective I would much rather have that then have every NPC in town tell me to leave.
Skeletons of Scarwall on the other hand can go.I'm just gonna say that as a player I've really enjoyed Skeletons of Scarwall. After History of Ashes it's nice to just let loose and kill some #^$&ing monsters! That and it's a well constructed and paced adventure. It has a lot of that classic dungeon crawl feel that many of the AP's seem to lack in. Maybe just try to find a way to tie it in better...
Your absolutely correct that Skeletons of Scarwell is a really excellent classic dungeon. If it lines up with your players totally go for it but its a really tricky call. It seems like a little more then 50% of the groups that got to this part just found a big old classic dungeon to be a major drag on the campaign at this point.
The problem is that late in a long campaign classic dungeons almost always feel like huge slogs, even really good classic dungeons. The problem is the nature of such a dungeon itself along with the timing. Any long campaign has a difficult time keeping up the enthusiasm, after all everyone has been at this for probably a year and a third by this time (presuming pretty regular sessions). Then we hit the big dungeon and the plot completely stalls into 5-9 sessions (several months for most groups) all of which are 'search of the MacGuffin' with no grander movement in the plot at all. What I think is usually happening, in those games where this feels like its badly placed, is that the big 'ole dungeon crawl is taking some small amount of already existing player fatigue and really exaggerating it.
Hence if your players all seem psyched and are begging for fat lootz and talking with each other in excited voices about the awesome s%~$ they are going to able to do if they can only gain two levels then this adventure is going to be a blast.
If, on the other hand, you, as the DM, feel that you have to work extra hard these days to keep up the groups enthusiasm then you may want to work your way around this adventure. One way you might be able to gauge this is player attendance. If players are missing sessions more often then when the campaign started or if the game itself is being canceled more often then originally then player fatigue is likely already set in at least to some extent - and Skeletons of Scarwall will probably make things worse.
Its especially important for the DM to be honest with themselves with this adventure. There is a real danger here that the DM, on some level, realizes that a big dungeon actually represents a little bit of a break for the DM. Dungeons are comparatively easy on the DM. Hence if the DM is suffering some fatigue it can act like a sirens call even though this is probably, in reality, the worst point in the campaign for the DM to try and rest his overworked brain.
A common thread to this is getting the PCs out of Korvosa. I haven't even finished the first book, but it occurred to me that you a viable option might be to... ** spoiler omitted **is that a terrible idea? Or do you think that might work?
Its possible to do this but I'd not underestimate what a good DM can do with every NPC telling the players to leave. Being hunted through the streets by enemy forces can be pretty exciting stuff full of daring escapes via the rooftoops and such.
Its probably pretty easy for the DM to engineer it so that the NPCs are suggesting escape because the the Grey Maidens are currently physically bashing down the front door.
I put Scarwall directly atop Citadel Vraith. :p The general idea of mine was that the Hellknights back then discovered this ruined empty castle and cleared out whatever minor critters lived inside. They then rebuilt it into their current headquarter.
Since the Hellknights removed themselves from Korvosa early on in the AP, I simply said to myself "So what if with Ileosas ( and Kazavons ) growing power, the old castle re-manifested itself on top of Citadel Vraith, with all its inhabitants having been phased out of reality when Kazavons power was diminished so much?"
It has some logical errors, but those can be glossed over with a good dose of Handwavium. The players get to return to Korvosa ( which also requires some things to happen differently, but those are pretty minor ), the thread with the missing Hellknights is tied off and the players feel more connected to the city again.
A common thread to this is getting the PCs out of Korvosa. I haven't even finished the first book, but it occurred to me that you a viable option might be to... ** spoiler omitted **is that a terrible idea? Or do you think that might work?
That sounds risky, but definitely more exciting than having to leave Korvosa due to peer pressure.
My only real objection would be the deus ex machina involved in having an NPC spring the party. Maybe there could be some way to have all the PCs *but one* arrested? Or else give them the means to orchestrate their own daring escape? Look for ways to put power in the hands of the PCs, especially after they've effectively been rendered powerless.
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If it lines up with your players totally go for it but its a really tricky call. It seems like a little more then 50% of the groups that got to this part just found a big old classic dungeon to be a major drag on the campaign at this point.
My group really liked Book 5.
Of course, I had a paladin in my group who was very keen on the undead thing and his "mercy" talents helped with all of the ability score damage done by the denizens of the castle.
Then I had a Strength-based unarmed fighter with a cleric cohort and he loved it as well. Most combats involved him just wading in and going to town, but against some of the creatures found in the castle that wasn't a good tactic and he found himself needing to be a little more... restrained.
The wizard and second fighter could take it or leave it, I think, although the originality of some of the monsters made it a book that I didn't want to miss! Especially the dance lesson. Unfortunately, my party never went back into that room later on so they never got the full effect of seeing that creature rise again...!
Sorry to blather, but I have to share what happened at our game last night, when my PCs faced Cindermaw.
** spoiler omitted **...
I have to say that was really funny!! However, I'm not surprised by the PCs actions because players always do stupid things!
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Skeletons of Scarwall's main issue is that aside from being the holding locale for the MacGuffin, its not really linked to the rest of the AP. A History of Ashes actually links very well to the AP as its all about Korvosa's hinterland and its past. That said the adventure as written does not include quite enough of that history and current tensions before the players leave to visit the Shointi. Its a really good idea for a DM to make the players interested in the people they will be interacting with before they come in contact with said peoples. I've screwed up and failed in this regard in a campaign in the past (not CotCT) and its really hard on the players motivations and lessens the sense of story for them. Make sure they know who and what the Shointi are as major players in the region before they choose to embark on A History of Ashes. Build the Shointi into the campaign organically right from the start.
I will agree that most of the fluff in Skeletons of Scarwall has little to do with the AP. It isn't all that important for the players to know where the Fangs of Kazavon come from. However, I actually intend to play up the background of the Kazavon even more with my current group (who are only in Seven Days to the Grave).
The reason is that my players are pretty into their characters and will probably want to continue playing them after defeating Ileosa. The logical extension to that is to track stop the Temple of Zon-Kuthon from finding and uniting the other relics of Kazavon. Skeletons of Scarwall seems to exist to provide all the background needed to continue the campaign after the events of the AP wrap up. If you think your players might be at all interested in taking their characters all the way to level 20, I really think Skeletons of Scarwall will become the linchpin of future developments.
I look forward to my players returning to the Shoanti and Scarwall to look for more evidence of Mandravius's(sp?) companions and where they might have taken the remaining relics, trying to outsmart and out maneuver the followers of Zon-Kuthon, and dodging the Red Mantis as they lick their wounds and try to save face by taking out the PC that so handily defeated some of their best agents.
I have to say that was really funny!! However, I'm not surprised by the PCs actions because players always do stupid things!Sorry to blather, but I have to share what happened at our game last night, when my PCs faced Cindermaw.
** spoiler omitted **...
I missed that story the first time around. Hilarious!
I loved playing in CoCT but chapters 4 and 5, especially History of Ashes, were wearying. It just seemed like too many artificial hoops to jump through. At the time I described it as:
"To find out about the relics in the Queen’s crown, you need Guy #1 to tell you, but to do that you need to perform Heroic Task 1, but to do that you need Guy #2, but to do that you need to perform Heroic Task 2, but for that you need Guy #3, but for that you need to perform Heroic Task 3."
We seriously considered alternate means of persuasion on Guy #1, if you know what I mean.
If I were to run CoCT today I would rewrite that entire chapter to be less contrived and chain-questy. For an AP that has otherwise been pretty focused and, though having a strong plot, allowing the PCs a lot of latitude in how to scurry around Korvosa and get stuff done, it was weak - even omitting the "leave the place you've spent 3 chapters investing in" and all that.
And Scarwall... Also a little contrived. My "video game senses" kicked in the second I saw the main boss and I realized what had to be done.
Still my favorite AP, but really that's on the back of 1-3 and 6. We did enjoy making fun of the Boner Squad in 4-5 though.