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A situation came up in last night's session; the PCs surprised by a Gargantuan Black Pudding. Needless to say, its attack bonus, damage, CMB and acid saves were considerable, and more than a match for them, causing them to make a fighting retreat, deeper into their destination.
The point came, early on, when it was hit by slashing weapons, and split into two halves. After being freaked by this, and the discovery they now had an attack and an AoO each, one player stated what I thought was a valid point.
"At least they'll be weaker, and less able to grapple us."
Which caused me to double-check the Bestiary and see that, apart from hp, there is no mention of the mini-puddings' stats being affected at all.
...the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original's current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.
When I relayed that information to them (via the mini puddings dealing the same hurt as before), I got a chorus of "No Way!", among some other responses I can't repeat on a public board (!).
I continued with the RAW for the remainder of the encounter, 2 more rounds, until the PCs regrouped and D-Doored out of reach, but I admitted I saw their point and would think it over before next session.
So, the question is:
Should split oozes have other stats reduced, as well as hp? Strength (with obvious knock-on effects to CMB/CMD)? Damage Die? Reach? Constitution (I'd think not, as this would create strange math with the hp)? Acid saves DC? Or anything else?
No-one died, but some came close; several good spells were expended, and two shields and a very fine bow ended up as sludge.
I believe the end result would have been the same with weaker mini-puddings, except for less hp lost. Ooze attack rolls were high, the failed Reflex saves were well below DR.
If the consensus is that the smaller oozes should lose Str and slam dice size, I'll give the PCs some hp back at the beginning of next session as they catch their breath. I still don't think any of them will be rushing back for a rematch.
By the RAW I think only the HP change. It seems sort of like the split oozes should at least be smaller though. Else you can get into weird situations where the new ooze won't fit in the available space.
I was thinking that if you wanted to downsize split oozes as a house rule then maybe applying the young template would make sense. However, the template's penalties to HP or Con wouldn't fit since splitting already halves the ooze's HP. Using the +2 for Dex-based rolls and -2 on all other rolls from the Young template's Quick Rules might make sense though. Reduce the damage dice of the slam one step and the progression becomes like:
(Huge) Melee slam +8 (2d6+4 plus 2d6 acid plus grab)+16 grapple
(Large) Melee slam +6 (1d8+2 plus 2d6 acid plus grab)+14 grapple
(Medium) Melee slam +4 (1d6+1 plus 2d6 acid plus grab)+12 grapple
(Small) slam +2 (1d4-1 plus 2d6 acid plus grab)+10 grapple
The problem with fitting the new oozes into the old ooze's space is only somewhat reduced, but I think it would work well enough. Of course this would weaken the split ability, but that kind of sounds like what you want.
What I've always wondered about is whether the split black puddings can ever rejoin at some point. Maybe two puddings should be able to join as a full-round action (at least if they were part of the same pudding to begin with).
All of a sudden I really want some pudding...
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If everyone just attacked as much as they could in one round to split it into as many small pieces as possible, then someone casts an area effect damage spell that fries all the little pieces, that would seem to end the combat fairly quick.
Unless I'm missing something.
Using that tactic, maybe reducing the other stats of the smaller puddings would trivialize the encounter too much?
Granted, the acid damage of a black pudding on items is rather unforgiving, too. I tend to house rule that down a little.
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By the RAW I think only the HP change. It seems sort of like the split oozes should at least be smaller though. Else you can get into weird situations where the new ooze won't fit in the available space.
Oh, yes, I was already reducing the size. I thought that was implied in the Split ability. However <sly evil GM grin>....now you come to mention it, I can see how it could be read that identical means identical, and we end up with two Gargantuan puddings...<twirls moustasche>...
I was thinking that if you wanted to downsize split oozes as a house rule then maybe applying the young template would make sense. However, the template's penalties to HP or Con wouldn't fit since splitting already halves the ooze's HP.
Young template sounds like a good idea, if you're in a hurry.
That could be a way to keep the game running, especially if the ooze is a wandering encounter that a GM wasn't planning.I've got a week till next game, so I don't mind trying for a more detailed method, but it's good to have a back-up plan. Thanks.
I agree the Con and hp should be left alone.
HP are already being halved. Reducing them further would be double-duty.
And I think Con should be left alone, since it governs so many of the other functions. The hardiness of the ooze's innards should be the same, whether they're in this bag or the other.
What I've always wondered about is whether the split black puddings can ever rejoin at some point. Maybe two puddings should be able to join as a full-round action (at least if they were part of the same pudding to begin with).
I think they have to be able to rejoin; it's the only way that makes sense to me. It's far too easy for them to catch themselves on a nail while they slorp about. It should probably be something that takes too long to track in combat, though.
All of a sudden I really want some pudding...
Nearly tea-time over here.
Wonder if the corner shop has any Blutwurst?
Greetings, fellow travellers.
AFB, but I would handle it this way: the puddings reduce in size by splitting. Therefore, I would apply the changes as described when applying size changes for advancing monsters - just backwards.
If you start with a huge budding, which becomes two large puddings their penalty to attack and ac is reduced from -2 (for huge) to -1, like-wise their str goes down by 8, dex increases by 2, nat. armor is reduced by 1 and so forth.
Ruyan.
Creative Director
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Only the hp changes. Why? Because dividing hp in half is pretty easy to do in the middle of the game. Dividing ability scores in half and then recalculating saving throws, attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, CMB/CMD, Armor Class, hit points, and saving throw DCs is not... and those ALL change when you adjust ability scores. Having to recalculate that every time an ooze splits would grind the game to a halt.
If you have some sort of fancy computer program that can quickly calculate all of those changes with the touch of a button or two, and assuming you USE that computer there at the table, I'd consider having a split ooze also halve its Strength and perhaps Constitution (in which case I would NOT halve its hit points, since those get adjusted when you halve the Constitution), but I'd actually consider RAISING its Dexterity. It's a can of worms, in any case.
To be honest, I was fine with them being just as hard. It's a fantasy game, and a lot of things don't make sense in a purely physical way if you disallow the effects of magic or the divine.
I mean, we're talking about giant oozes with enough self-awareness to track and murder people. They are moving blobs of... stuff... what on earth can you easily presume about how hard they hit, or how resilient they are?
The oozes we faced, even after being split twice, were the size of a small car. That is going to hurt, and they are going to grab you hard. I was happy with that.
Now, the blindsight instead of tremorsense... grr...
I may be biased though.
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Only the hp changes. Why? Because dividing hp in half is pretty easy to do in the middle of the game. Dividing ability scores in half and then recalculating saving throws, attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, CMB/CMD, Armor Class, hit points, and saving throw DCs is not... and those ALL change when you adjust ability scores. Having to recalculate that every time an ooze splits would grind the game to a halt.
Thanks for clarifying the official stance.
I wasn't going to halve any stats, but rather apply the reductions for a change in size (except Con).Having thought on it through the day, I realise I wasn't taking the 3D nature of the beast into account.
A Gargantuan ooze isn't just a 4x4 creature, split into two 2x4 creatures (near enough to a Huge 3x3).
It's a 4x4x4 creature, taking up 64 little cubes. After a split, each half still has 32 little cubes, well over the 27 assumed for a Huge 3x3x3 cube.
It would take two splits, to bring it to 16 cubes, before it counted as more than Large and within Huge range. Until then, no change in Str, attack bonus or CMB would be noticeable.
So, assuming I were to apply any reductions, since the PCs hit twice, they've left one Gargantuan and two Huge oozes behind. Ouch.