Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Crossposted from one of the Superstar threads:
I think I just learned something. Off to find the sentence that says bonus dice aren't multiplied on a crit.
EDIT: nope. That's just extra dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming). The archetype would still need to say it doesn't multiply on a crit, right?
Interesting quirk.
The critical hit rule only explicitly calls out bonus dice from precision-based damage (like sneak attack) and weapon special qualities (like flaming).
I've played more or less constantly with WotC and later Paizo staffers since not long after 3rd Ed came out, and perhaps in 3.0 or 3.5 there was a specific stipulation that "constant numbers multiply on crits, variable dice don't," but if so I don't see that as a universal rule in the PF Core Rulebook (p. 184) or in the paizo.com/prd.
By RAW, it looks like Channel Smite, and any other bonus damage dice that don't explicitly exclude it (e.g., Vital Strike), would be multiplied on a crit.
So, there's the question:
I'm flagging this for the FAQ. You should too.
Well vital strike specifically says that it is not multiplied on a critical, but your other points still stand, it looks like an overlook to me. good catch.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Well vital strike specifically says that it is not multiplied on a critical, but your other points still stand, it looks like an overlook to me. good catch.
Yeah, reading back over that the way I phrased it, it came out meaning the opposite of what I meant.
The phrase "other bonus damage dice that don't explicitly exclude it (e.g., Vital Strike)" was intended to mean VS as a COUNTER-example of things that "explicitly exclude" multiplying dice.
Ah well, we're all in agreement. FAQ away!
Crossposted from one of the Superstar threads:
I think I just learned something. Off to find the sentence that says bonus dice aren't multiplied on a crit.
EDIT: nope. That's just extra dice from special weapon qualities (such as flaming). The archetype would still need to say it doesn't multiply on a crit, right?
Interesting quirk.
The critical hit rule only explicitly calls out bonus dice from precision-based damage (like sneak attack) and weapon special qualities (like flaming).
I've played more or less constantly with WotC and later Paizo staffers since not long after 3rd Ed came out, and perhaps in 3.0 or 3.5 there was a specific stipulation that "constant numbers multiply on crits, variable dice don't," but if so I don't see that as a universal rule in the PF Core Rulebook (p. 184) or in the paizo.com/prd.
By RAW, it looks like Channel Smite, and any other bonus damage dice that don't explicitly exclude it (e.g., Vital Strike), would be multiplied on a crit.
So, there's the question:
I'm flagging this for the FAQ. You should too.
I think it is one of those that is supposed to be understood, but never made it into print. I did hit the FAQ button.
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The ONLY place I've ever seen any mention that extra dice do multiply on crits is for the Epic level weapon add-ons Fiery Blast, Icy Blast, etc., and Holy Power, Axiomatic Power, etc. Those all (among other things) add +3d6 damage of the energy or alignment type to every hit, and those extra dice are specifically called out as multiplying on confirmed criticals, unlike every other kind of extra die added.
Other than these specific callouts, the general rule, as I've always understood it since the debut of 3.0 is, added points multiply, and added dice do not.
The ONLY place I've ever seen any mention that extra dice do multiply on crits is for the Epic level weapon add-ons Fiery Blast, Icy Blast, etc., and Holy Power, Axiomatic Power, etc. Those all (among other things) add +3d6 damage of the energy or alignment type to every hit, and those extra dice are specifically called out as multiplying on confirmed criticals, unlike every other kind of extra die added.
Other than these specific callouts, the general rule, as I've always understood it since the debut of 3.0 is, added points multiply, and added dice do not.
...but Paizo is always saying pathfinder is its own game, and for that to hold water they have to print every rule that matters, and this one did not make it into the book or the PRD even if it is understood.
Many of us 3.5er's know what the rules are due to 3.5, but the newer players don't so it still has to be printed.
A more interesting question might be:
Is there any source of bonus damage expressed as a dice that doesn't state one of the following: That it isn't multiplied on a critical hit, that it is precision damage, or is not a weapon property?
I don't think there is currently anything that slips through the cracks.
A more interesting question might be:
Is there any source of bonus damage expressed as a dice that doesn't state one of the following: That it isn't multiplied on a critical hit, that it is precision damage, or is not a weapon property?
I don't think there is currently anything that slips through the cracks.
Not at the moment, but a universal rule would clear that up so it does not have to repeatedly be reprinted for any variable dice damage that does come up.
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So, there's the question:
There is a universal statement that extra dice are never multiplied in the Pathfinder rules. It is on page 179. The text is: "Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied."
Edit: The crit rules on p. 184 provide the detailed short list you refer to, but the general rule on damage (which includes the exception quoted above), still apply. I would agree that calling them out in detail and separately in the crit section can lead to seeing only part of the picture.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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So, there's the question:
There is a universal statement that extra dice are never multiplied in the Pathfinder rules. It is on page 179. The text is: "Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied."
Edit: The crit rules on p. 184 provide the detailed short list you refer to, but the general rule on damage (which includes the exception quoted above), still apply. I would agree that calling them out in detail and separately in the crit section can lead to seeing only part of the picture.
Well done, sir!
Still might be a useful addition to the FAQ, given that people might very well look at p. 184 and not realize the rule is stated more universally on p. 179 - just to make sure the two bits of rules state the same thing rather than giving an appearance of special cases.
You are as busy as a bee today SKR, great work! Glad to have you all back from the Con!