Gun damage...why x4?

[James Bolton]

I've played Iron Kingdoms. I've looked at a lot of other d20 mechanics for guns.
In every one, guns have a high crit damage and a low crit chance. (In many of these rules guns deal two dice of damage on a hit, too!)

Why?

Because in all those games precision damage and damage from lots of magical sources were meant to addend the dice from those guns, and those guns have to hit AC like every other weapon in the game.

If we are going to have a 1/1 base attack scaling class that uses nothing but guns that hit touch AC (meaning he'll almost always hit), whose sole hope of obtaining a reasonable damage output is scoring a crit, why not give the darn thing an 18-20 threat range?

Making the gunslinger the king of crit sort of works thematically too. Duels to the death usually only resulted in one shot being fired, right?

[Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus]

Because on a critical it goes right through/into a vital part of the body?

P.S. Its not like its an unheard-of critical multiplier ether.

[Ross Byers]

Because the way a gun crits is much more akin to a pick (one deep hole all the way in), than a scimitar (incredibly sharp, but doesn't cut deeply.)

[Kaiyanwang]

What I observed from melee weapons:

Things slashing but enough heavy have good damage die and crit 19-20/x2 (Example: longsword)

Things chopping have good damage die and crit x3 (example: battleaxe)

Things slashing and less heavy have 18-20/x2 I guess that it means is more easy they cut deep the way are used (SLASH SLASH SLAH - more chance to cut something relevant) but they will never go so deep. (Example: scimitar).

Things penetrating have low damage, but once they crit they pierce the target from one side to another. 20/x4. (Example: scythe)

Bullets hit DEEP. 20/x4.

Makes sense.

EDIT: NINJAED BY ROSS BYERS. Paizo Ninjas! :D

[vuron]

Thematically big crit range weapons (Rapier, Scimitar) are supposed to represent extremely accurate weapons that find weak spots more often.

Big crit multiplier weapons (Axes,Picks) represent weapons that do a lot of damage if they hit a weak spot but don't hit weak spots very often.

As Ross indicated x4 also generally represents alot of force focused in a tight location.

Primitive Firearms such as smoothbore muskets and flintlocks which seems to be target technology level aren't particularly accurate weapons however they do focus their kinetic energy at a small point.

Thus x4.

[EWHM]

Metagame perspective: x4 weapons are intended to be scarier in the hands of mooks, because they can always get a lucky shot in. In addition, they're deadlier in a CdG---in this case the literal 'gun to the head'.

[James Bolton]

No, it isn't an out-there multiplier or thematically off-kilter or anything.
But surely, something needs to be different from the 3.x rules out there, and as long as we're making new rules, why not make a few more new rules?

Heck, it wouldn't be too far to reach for a 19-20x3, would it?
They are exotic and require reload time, after all.

Or maybe even just bump the threat range specifically for the gunslinger?

That would cover the hard-hitting, deep-sinking bullets and it might be a firmer basis to help the gunslinger distinguish himself from Random NPC Warrior Number 72's pistol-wielding expertise.

I mean, whatever the final iteration, if he's really going to be an alt-fighter, the gunslinger absolutely has to be able to dish out damage at a meaningful level.

At the moment though, with the whole touch AC thing and big ol' crit multiplier, the only person I can think of actually making use of such a gun would be a Paladin on a smite... I mean, hitting the touch AC of a dragon, undead or outsider all but guarantees at least the first hit, which is, coincidentally, the one that matters most to the pally.

[kyrt-ryder]

The rapier totally breaks that guideline you guys used lol, being a deep penetration weapon with 18-20/x2

[Alceste008]

The x4 weapons are not new. Picks have been x4 since 3.0. There is simply a lot of damage at a single spot. I agree that guns are pretty low powered atm. Balance / Feedback is what this play test is about.

[James Bolton]

Agreed, Alceste008.

I was hoping that this was some of that feedback stuff.

I could be way off base, but it seems to me that the gunslinger would be a pretty good crossbowman as written, or even just a pretty decent skirmisher - more like a ranger - who could fire and charge. But the guns themselves seem to work counter to the class's abilities rather than with them and the firearms themselves are unattractive to players, much like the pick and the scythe (at least in my experience, the scythe only gets picked for flavor only to be dropped whenever the magic lootz are rolled out).

About half the gunslinger's abilities are devoted to 'not sucking' with a gun rather than actually 'being good' with a gun. So that is another problem.

But I thought that maybe the gun was where the gunslinger's rewrite should start.

[Oliver McShade]

One nice think about the x4 is

Also Flaming Burst (+2 magic bonus) or Frost Burst (+2 magic bonus), might be great enchantments for guns. (page 470)

1d6 extra elemental damage per hit

On a Confirmed Critical + 3d10 extra damage (due to the x4 factor).

[erik542]

James Bolton wrote:

I've played Iron Kingdoms. I've looked at a lot of other d20 mechanics for guns.

In every one, guns have a high crit damage and a low crit chance. (In many of these rules guns deal two dice of damage on a hit, too!)

Why?

Because in all those games precision damage and damage from lots of magical sources were meant to addend the dice from those guns, and those guns have to hit AC like every other weapon in the game.

If we are going to have a 1/1 base attack scaling class that uses nothing but guns that hit touch AC (meaning he'll almost always hit), whose sole hope of obtaining a reasonable damage output is scoring a crit, why not give the darn thing an 18-20 threat range?

Making the gunslinger the king of crit sort of works thematically too. Duels to the death usually only resulted in one shot being fired, right?

Two words: Boom Headshot.