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First Impression: Very Nice.
I enjoyed that the mechanics had a fantasy flair to them, with some historical backing to the abilities of the class. I felt that the class was balanced when reading it, but I have not yet put together a gunslinger or play tested one.
I am still a little skeptical that this class fit thematically in the game. Guns were a big step in technology and changed the face of warfare as it was known once they became available for use in small units. However, I know that they were used in the Siege of Malta by both sides, while both rapier and scimitar were used as the main melee weapons.
Also, the musketeers are the most well known in literature to use swords and guns in battle.
However, the gunslinger class doesn't fit either the Knights Hospitaller or the Musketeers. It fits the Minuteman of the American Revolution, and that is a large leap thematically. I believe that gap needs to be addressed.
Unfortunately, the one thing that could be done to help is closed to play testing. The gun mechanics seem set, and thus the number one issue I am finding with the concept cannot be addressed. That one issue is reload time. However, I will leave that alone and focus on how to bring the Gunslinger closer to it's counterparts in at least the spirit of the game.
First Impression: Very Nice.
I enjoyed that the mechanics had a fantasy flair to them, with some historical backing to the abilities of the class. I felt that the class was balanced when reading it, but I have not yet put together a gunslinger or play tested one.
I am still a little skeptical that this class fit thematically in the game. Guns were a big step in technology and changed the face of warfare as it was known once they became available for use in small units. However, I know that they were used in the Siege of Malta by both sides, while both rapier and scimitar were used as the main melee weapons.
Also, the musketeers are the most well known in literature to use swords and guns in battle.
However, the gunslinger class doesn't fit either the Knights Hospitaller or the Musketeers. It fits the Minuteman of the American Revolution, and that is a large leap thematically. I believe that gap needs to be addressed.
Unfortunately, the one thing that could be done to help is closed to play testing. The gun mechanics seem set, and thus the number one issue I am finding with the concept cannot be addressed. That one issue is reload time. However, I will leave that alone and focus on how to bring the Gunslinger closer to it's counterparts in at least the spirit of the game.
Minutemen of the American Revolution... Andoran anyone?
Guns have been in fantasy roleplaying for ages in some way or another.
I think the way it has been introduced in Pathfinder works just fine. They are good weapons but remain far from replacing other ranged types.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Yes, guns have been in fantasy before, and there were even guns in 2nd ed of D&D (maybe 1st ed even.) I loved the arquebuss in 2nd ed, though there was something about their use that made me feel naughty.
There can be a problem with introducing guns to high fantasy though. I am speaking of Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time and Belgariad type fantasy. When you introduce a mechanic like guns into such settings, you can risk having the mechanic clash thematically, kind of like how James Bond would clash if he was put into Pirates of the Caribbean.
Now that I have been able to really look at the class, I think the gunslinger is just on the line of clashing and playing well with the others
I still stand by my opinion that it would fit better in an American Revolution like setting, while the other class are closer to a Crusades - Renaissance setting (if historical parallels are appropriate to use when dealing with fantasy.) The main reason for this opinion though is that their only schtick is gun combat, and no mechanic for back up. Once again, the Musketeers fired firearms in the book, they were also good swordsman. Pirates are another great example, they fired guns, then went to cutlass. Hospitallers used rapiers and firearms.
When I play test I want to try a couple different things. I want to do the class as is, and then with some type of sword sidearm (ironic, isn't it) mechanic.
Of course, I still haven't put a gunslinger down on paper, nor have I played with one yet. When I do, I might change my opinion of it and realize it fits perfectly, or I might cement my opinion.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Just posting here so I wont forget due to this idea being in the middle of the night.
Need to look into:
Some game mechanic for backup melee weapon
Some mechanic for using black powder outside of firearms
New names for Grit
Ability to use the gun to gain bonuses in certain skills (intimidate being top of the list.)
Just posting here so I wont forget due to this idea being in the middle of the night.
Need to look into:
Some game mechanic for backup melee weapon
Some mechanic for using black powder outside of firearms
New names for Grit
Ability to use the gun to gain bonuses in certain skills (intimidate being top of the list.)
I personally like Grit, the name and the abilities. Having "Grit" was not just a movie term it was term used in the old west. In a lot of cases still used. Yes it is used in the movie "True Grit" but the way the word Grit was used in that movie totally fits what it does in the game. Rooster Cogburn would be an Iconic Gunslinger
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Wow, I did not know that grit was an old west name. That is really cool.
Maybe that is one of the reasons the class has a Revolution feel it.
If the name stays I won't be hurt, as I like the word, but it makes me think of qualities and traits a normal fight has. Tough, explosive, strong, combat experienced, willing to wade into a fray, and very sure of one's abilities comes to mind. I am playing a fighter right now in a game and "gritty" is word I would use to describe him.
I also want to pick this class apart and every part of it is going to be questioned.
NEW LIST OF STUFF TO DO:
-Shooting black powder to light it (and make stuff explode.)
-Are there other names for the class?
-Shooting traps to set them up.
-Pistol whipping by throwing the gun. (Wife's idea. This is more of a "honey do.")
-Tossing stuff and shooting it in the air. (Alchemist fire comes to mind)
-Look at the Grit ability in detail. Specifically, if the way to gain more grit points is balanced. Also look into if there are alternate ways to decide when the tricks associated with Grit can be used.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I have not yet been able to playtest, but I want to pick this class apart and look at this in detail. I have been able to read through the forums, but haven't commented a great deal. Mostly, I didn't want to repeat what was already said, but I also wanted to save most of my comments for here so they can be in one place.
I will do this in several posts, but here is a dissection of this class, my commentary, and ideas.
Alignment: Any.Hit Dice: d10.
Class Skills
The gunslinger’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Engineering), Knowledge (Local), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int Modifier.
Class Features
The following are class features of the gunslinger.Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Gunslingers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with all firearms. They are proficient with all light and medium armors.
Alignment being open to all is the only choice. Gun's can be wielded by good or evil.
I think the hit dice are appropriate as well. The range of their guns will be bringing them up close and possibly into melee. The gunslinger would also be pretty tough, as gun combat can be painful.
The skill selection needs some work. The comments on the lack of perception in the forums is one thing I can agree with, though if we allow the gunslinger to have perception as a class skill, the archer and crossbowman should have it as well. They both use weapons with a far longer range, but we cannot change those archetypes. The gun brings sharpshooting to mind, and that requires an ability to notice enemies from far away. I think the idea that gunslingers need perception comes from this idea of sharpshooting. However, it is yet to be seen if sharpshooting can even be done with this class.
I am not sure why heal is a class skill. I guess this skill is proper with the one ability to stop bleed effects with a hot gun. Or maybe the skill is there so they can dig bullets out of their flesh. Maybe heal can be traded for perception.
The number of skill points are good. No need to give them more.
I agree with the weapon and armor proficiencies. I can see someone using theses to build a musketeer, a conquistador or minuteman. The Gunslinger has a feeling of a trained solider, and it makes sense to give them a wide weapon training. Without the martial weapons, they wouldn't be able to have a secondary weapon for melee that could help them if their guns fail, or reloading becomes too dangerous.
Yes, guns have been in fantasy before, and there were even guns in 2nd ed of D&D (maybe 1st ed even.)
There were LASER GUNS in 1st edition. Barrier Peaks, anyone?
Hell, there's a magical nuclear reactor in Golarion.
And, anyway, all the "it doesn't fit in my campaign!" complaints are really 100% irrelevant. If it doesn't fit in your campaign, all you have to do is say, "no guns. No gunslingers."; done!
Yes, guns have been in fantasy before, and there were even guns in 2nd ed of D&D (maybe 1st ed even.)There were LASER GUNS in 1st edition. Barrier Peaks, anyone?
Hell, there's a magical nuclear reactor in Golarion.
And, anyway, all the "it doesn't fit in my campaign!" complaints are really 100% irrelevant. If it doesn't fit in your campaign, all you have to do is say, "no guns. No gunslingers."; done!
After playing this class for a bit here is my take.
First you need to reduce the price per shot to at least 1/3 the price it is now. Most low level pistoleers need to have the Rich Parents Trait to afford to build a level 1 Gunslinger.
Some of the Grit Feats can have the level requirement dropped a bit and not hurt anything.
More low level choices would help round out grit.
Allow the Grit feats to be taken as Deed choices for the Gunslinger only.
Make a few sample stunts for Daring Act to give GMs that have not run games like Hong Kong Action Theater (HKAT)or Feng Shui an idea as to what is considered to be a daring act.
As a Class it was a lot of fun to play, being able to use Daring act to regain Grit made the class fun to play and added a sense of excitement to the game I played in.
Gunslingers need a boost to damage as they consistently fall behind the fighter. He does not need to do as much damage but should at least come close the Gunslinger does not. He can still fire slow but he needs some way to compensate for it.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I will get around to responding to people who comment here once I get through what I am planning. I do appreciate that people are reading what I am posting. Thank you.
I want to set a goal to not only give my thoughts on how something does or does not work but also thoughts on what can be done to change or fix what ever detail I am looking at at the time. I feel the forums are full of posts that only talk about how something is broken, with almost no mention on how it can be fixed, or having such comments buried. Maybe I am reading everything wrong, or missing something, but I can't help but feel like there are more complaints about a broken game mechanic and little discussion on how to fix it.
Sorry for the rant. Onto business.
Firearm: At 1st level, a gunslinger gains either one musket (along with 50 doses of black powder and 50 bullets) or two pistols for free.
A few comments here before I look into possible changes. First, I am pretty certain that the finial book is going to have more gun options then pistol and musket, so if this ability sticks through to the end that means there are probably going to be other firearms that wont be available, or shouldn't be available, until much higher levels. No doubt the cost will be a deciding factor as to when someone will be able to buy a weapon, but I hope the abilities of the guns will justify a higher cost.
I hope the musket and pistols won't be the worst guns available. I know only a little about the history of firearms, but I am aware that there were hand cannons as early personal firearms that had to be lit by hand long before the invention of mechanical workings that made pulling a trigger possible. I hope to see rules for these as well as more advanced firearms.
Now, the class ability concerns me a little. I think it says a good deal when a class ability gives you something expensive for free. The very fact that the guns are impossibly expensive, yet not nearly as powerful as other items of their cost, makes me wonder if maybe the gun rules should have been open for playtest. However they are not.
This class needs guns to function though, so free firearms it is. What can be changed though? The wording bothers me, so I can at least suggest something there. I think it can confuse some people into thinking that you either gain a musket, bullets, and powder OR two pistols with no bullets and powder.
Change it to this:
Firearm: At 1st level, a gunslinger gains either one musket or two pistols for free. They also gain 50 doses of black powder and 50 bullets for free.
There, that feels better and there little room for misunderstanding.
I would like to look into the number of shots given for free and figure out how long they will last. To do that, I would need to figure out how many attacks per encounter, how many encounters per level, and maybe a few other variables. It is late where I am though, and I really don't have the time to look into it. If someone an do that, maybe we can figure out if 50 is the best number. Who knows, it could be too many shots to give out for free, but it might also be too little.
Next: Grit
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Grit (Ex): A gunslinger makes her mark upon the world with daring deeds. Some gunslingers claim they belong to a mystical way of the gun, but it’s more likely that the volatile and dangerous nature of firearms simply prune the unlucky and careless from their ranks. Whatever the case, all gunslingers have grit. In game terms, grit is a fluctuating measure of the gunslinger’s ability to perform amazing actions in combat, both offensive and defensive. At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) in grit points. Grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than the gunslinger’s Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. A gunslinger spends grit to accomplish deeds (see below) and regains grit in the following ways.Critical Hit with a Firearm: Each time a gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack, she regains 1 grit point. Such a critical hit must be confirmed in the heat of combat. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature, or a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level does not regain grit.
Killing Blow with a Firearm: The first time a gunslinger reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm attack during the course of a day, she regains 1 grit point. Such a killing blow must occur in the heat of combat. Destroying a target or other unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does not regain grit.
Daring Act: Each time a gunslinger performs a daring act, she regains 1 grit point. As a general guideline, a daring act should have around or less than a 50% chance of success. Leaping a large chasm, rushing forward and avoiding attacks of opportunity in order to grab a crucial item or confront a dangerous foe, or sliding down a banister in order to save the prince are all possible daring acts. The GM is the final arbiter of what is considered a daring act.
Grit! What a name. I wish I can think of another name that doesn't make me think of cowboys so much when I really want to play a musketeer. It is just a bad ass sounding name, and I keep trying to find a worthy name to replace it but I can't. I dislike this name but can't think of anything else that is fitting or just as bad ass!
So we keep the name until someone more clever can think of a new one.
What is Grit? A power point system used to do cool stuff. I can dig that. I mean, I want to curve a bullet, or blow a man backwards, or fire five times before a silver dollar hits the ground. I will have to wait for those abilities to be invented though, so maybe I should move onto how grit works first.
It might just be me, but I think there is too much fluff introducing this ability. It makes it sound cool, but I also end up feeling the desire to move on and skip ahead. I would like to see a shorter introduction, something that makes me say "That's cool" and not think of hundreds of knights yelling, "Lets get on with it!"
Moving on, I see that this is a power point system and that it is going to fluctuate. I understand that the number is based on wisdom modifier, and that there are only a few ways to increase the maximum number. These points are going to be spent on cool stuff.
Okay, cool. Except that I really see problems right away with the number of points per day. I know it is going to fluctuate but lets mess around with that number. This reminds me of the Monk's Ki pool(actualy it reminds everyone of the Monk's ki pool,) so why not have a similar mechanic. Wisdom modifier+ one half the class level. That way, the pool can grow large enough overtime to make the player feel like there is improvement and not stagnation with this ability. Why do we want that? Well, if an ability like this one, as in an ability with points that are meant to be spent and which most of the other class abilities rely on, has no growth over the course of leveling up, then the player will not gain much of a sense of growth and accomplishment. In fact, there is a risk of the class gaining a feeling of stagnation, or lack of improvement over time, that can cut into the enjoyment of the class.
That being said, will making that single change be a game breaker? Well, at level 20, with magical item boosts, assuming the Wisdom stat was 18, some feats were taken and that all the ability boosts went into Wisdom, that number could be 24 (I think. Someone check my math please.) 24 points in a day, at level twenty, is not game breaking if the class relies on those points to function. It might even be low, but I will have to play with that change first to figure that out. If you end up using them all in a single encounter then we will know if there is a need for more.
Now I ask, how can they be gained back? If the change on the points per day is made will the fluctuating mechanic even be needed?
It turns out that you can do cool things to gain back points, like critical hits, killing blows, and daring stunts. So how often do those things happen?
Critical hits will happen less then 5% of the time. In fact it might be around 1% for most encounters.
The first kill of the day is another one I question. In the game I am playing now I have noticed that not everyone will even have a killing blow. In fact my fighter has the most right now, and oddly enough I think the secondary warrior of the group has the least. What does this mean? You might gain one point this way in a day. Might. It really will depend on the make up of your party, so experiences will vary here.
Daring deeds makes me frown. It has been pointed out by plenty of people that as a person levels up, the less and less they will see points from this form of reward. I want to add that I do not like any mechanic that will make my job as a DM harder. If I have to answer the question, "Does that give me grit?" after every check or reckless action, I would consider banning gunslingers altogether from my games, or at least house rule the grit system so the question isn't even asked at all. Not to mention, this will cause people to do dumb things. That will result in grit points being awarded to dead gunslingers.
So do we need a system to replenish the grit points? To be honest the Monk does alright without a replenishing system. There is no need to have one, as cool as it is, unless you stick with a straight "wisdom modifier equals number of points per day," mechanic. Seeing as it is a messy one, and it's effectiveness will change with game masters, lets get rid of the fluctuating and change the points per day.
Lets change it this then:
Grit (Ex): All gunslingers have grit, an ability to face any challenge with their finger on the trigger and a sense of when to pull it. In game terms, grit is a measure of the gunslinger’s ability to perform amazing actions in combat, both offensive and defensive. At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains 1/2 her level + her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) in grit points. A gunslinger spends grit to accomplish deeds (see below.)
I have some more idea's Grit, but lets look at other abilities first.
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Deeds: Gunslingers spend grit points to accomplish deeds. Most deeds grant the gunslinger some momentary bonus or effect, but there are some that provide longer lasting effects. Some deeds stay in effect as long as a gunslinger has at least 1 grit point. The following is the list of base gunslinger deeds. A gunslinger can only perform deeds of her level or lower. Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as any appropriate grit is spent to perform the deed.
I am going to have to break Deeds into smaller pieces because it's different abilities each need a great deal of attention.
The paragraph is pretty clear. I can spend grit to gain bonuses and the ability to do neat tricks. Some of the bonuses are going to always be in effect as long as I have one grit point. The abilities are level based. There is not a limit on how many times I can use a deed as long as there is grit to spend.
I have a few ideas on different ways on handling deeds, but lets look at the deeds first.
Leap for Cover (Ex): At 1st level, when a creature makes a ranged attack against the gunslinger, she can drop prone as an immediate action, gaining the +4 bonus to AC. She applies the bonus retroactively to the triggering attack.
The first ability costs no grit points, and you are given the ability to drop prone to instantly gain boost to your AC against a ranged attack. I can see where this idea comes from, but I see a couple issues. First, the name has Leap in it, not drop. Second the name has cover in it, not ground. As is, the name should be Drop to the Ground.
If you want an ability that fits Leap for Cover, it needs to allow the gunslinger to actually leap behind cover. A few posts in these forums brings up the idea of diving behind a bar, a rock or just a corner. I can think of one that talked about the gunslinger staying on his feet.
I can think of a couple ways to change this. The first is to just change the name. Doing so will allow for the creation of an ability worthy of Leap for Cover that can be used in later levels. The second is to keep the name but change the ability to allow them to leap behind cover.
I am thinking of something like the following:
At 1st level, when a creature makes a ranged attack against the gunslinger, she can dive behind cover if it within 5 ft. of her as an immediate action. If she moves 5 ft. that movement does not count against her movement that turn, and the attack still aims for her. She gains any bonus to her AC for the cover against that attack. If the gunslinger moved to a place she will have full cover, count it as regular cover for that attack.
Okay, so my suggestion might need some work, but you get the idea. I am more prone to thinking that the name should just be changed and the ability above should be given that name and added in later.
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, a gunslinger can target touch AC beyond her firearm’s first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first. The gunslinger still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed.
This ability is going to drain grit points like mad. This is why the adjustment to daily grit is needed.
I like this. Keep it. It works. Done.
Quick Clear (Ex): At 1st level, as a standard action, a gunslinger can remove the broken condition from a single firearm she is currently wielding, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform.
In order to figure out what exactly is going on, lets look at the firearms rules and the broken condition.
The firearm rules say that on the natural result of the misfire value the gun gains the broken condition. That means it has a -2 to hit and damage, x2 critical, and the gun adds 4 to its misfire value. If it misfires again, it explodes.
This reminds me of the time I went with some boyscouts to supervise them at a shooting range and a rifle backfired and broke, burning my arms and face. I can see why someone would want to avoid explosions.
There is some talk about how the gun mechanics need to be fixed, while those who realize they are not going to be changed have expressed the opinion that the gunslinger should be immune to misfires. I love the idea of a misfire though. It adds something to the use of guns I find exciting. Most of the time, a misfire has nothing to do with the shooter. It has everything to do with the equipment. That being said, a smart shooter knows how to keep his equipment in top order by keeping his powder dry, the gun clean, or what have you. A top shot would also know how to quickly handle a misfire.
I am going to suggest that the ability be changed. Drop the grit cost and make it an ability that can be used as long as there is one grit point in the pool. I also want to see the ability be a move action, but for low levels that seems a bit much. Maybe at 7th level it can be a move action and at 14th level it can be a swift action.
Or maybe it is a standard action for no cost of grit, and a move action with 1 point of grit being spent.
Pistol-whip (Ex): At 3rd level, a gunfighter can make a surprise melee attack with the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon (gaining a +2 bonus on the attack roll) and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the pistol-whip is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by size Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by size Small creatures). Regardless of the gunslinger’s size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the gunslinger can make a CMB check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.
I like this. I don't know if this is going to be used a great deal so the cost is a good thing here. However, I am a little confused.
First, the ability has the word surprise in it. If it is a surprise attack am I allowed to attack against the touch AC? I don't think that is what is meant but there will be people who insist that is what is meant. Remove that word.
Where does the +2 to hit come from? I know I should know this, but I am at a loss as to where it comes from?
Also, why the cost of the grit point? My point is, if I can use the weapons like a club, why does there need to be a cost involved? Am I not allowed to hit someone with them at all unless I spend a point? Am I doing a trip attempt? Does that provoke an attack of opportunity?
This ability needs to be clarified. I also suggest that the ability to use the guns as clubs be free. The ability to knock someone down should be the only part of it that costs a grit point. Many of the older firearms were built to be clubs as well, seeing as once you fired them that is pretty much all they were good for.
Last note, the ability is a standard action. Change the use of the guns as clubs to be the same as using them as melee weapons. Make the special attack to knock someone prone be a standard action and cost a point.
I think the resulting change would look something like this:
Pistol-whip (Ex): At 3rd level, a gunfighter can make melee attacks with the butt or handle of her firearm as if they were a club. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the attack is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by size Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by size Small creatures). Regardless of the gunslinger’s size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If 1 grit point is spent, the gunslinger can make an attack as a standard action that deals damage normally and if the attack hits she may make a CMB check to knock the target prone as a free action.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Another note before I continue.
Someone might notice how I harp on clarity at times. In fact some of the points I ask to be clarified might already be clear. Why is clarity something important to me? Because I have been taught that the best way to teach someone something is to explain it in a way that even a child can understand it. I don't expect too many children to read these books, but we can at least strive to word things in such a way that childish players and GMs can understand them. Besides, the clearer it is, the less debate at the table will be had and more play time will be found.
Gunslinger Initiative (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as a gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. If she also has the Quick Draw feat, her hands are free and unrestrained, and the firearm is not hidden, she can draw a single firearm as part of the initiative check.
This is a nice ability, the boost to initiative is great because if a gunslinger can beat an opponent in the initiative count they can hit them with only an AC of 10 (remember, they are flat-footed and the gunslinger can do touch attacks.) The ability to draw a weapon is worded oddly enough to be confusing, and I think some of the people on the forums here have misunderstood it to be a useless ability. What I believe this class feature is allowing is the ability to start combat with the gun already drawn. This is not completely useless, as you start combat with a weapon already out, but if you end up being last you are flat-footed and can't use it to make attacks of opportunity.
I suggest adding in that the gun can be drawn and used to make attacks of opportunity even if flat-footed.
If I am understanding what is intended, here is how I would rewrite it:
Gunslinger Initiative (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as a gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. If she also has the Quick Draw feat, her hands are free and unrestrained, and the firearm is not hidden, she may draw a single firearm as an immediate action at the start of the combat when initiative is being rolled. The gunslinger can also use guns to make attacks of opportunity, even if they are flat-footed.
Covering Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as an immediate reaction, when a gunslinger misses with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point to pin down the target of that missed attack. The pinned-down target is treated as if it were entangled for 1 round. A gunslinger cannot choose to purposely miss a target to gain this effect.
This is one of the abilities clearly designed to simulate a real world action used with firearms, more specifically to pin an opponent down with suppressive fire. The problem with this ability is that it really does not simulate the real world action of providing cover fire. It does provide a great way of making use of a failed shot.
I really feel like it is a broken mechanic though. Placing the entangled condition on someone just because you missed and spent a point is pretty serious. I really want to scrap the ability completely, but I also want to find some way to provide cover fire.
For now, I am going recommend complete deletion of this ability until something better can be created.
Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, as a swift action, a gunslinger can take aim for greater accuracy and effect. On the next firearm attack she makes before the end of her turn, she can choose part of the body to target, and gain the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that body location cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter the part of the creature you target. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack are immune to these effects.
• Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mindaffecting effect.
• Torso: Targeting the torso doubles the critical range of the affected attack.
• Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit and drops one carried item of your choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit.
• Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. A flying creature falls. A creature that is immune to trip attacks is immune to this effect.
I agree with everyone in these forums that say this is an awesome ability. I also agree with everyone who says it is broken. I really love that the gunslinger utilizes their firearms to do neat things to their opponents, but we need to look at this closer and change most of it.
A gunslinger can spend a grit point to target a specific part of the body as a swift action. Different parts of the body do different things. If a creature is immune to critical hits this ability cannot be used on them and if they don’t have one of the body parts listed then that specific ability cannot be used.
I just read this ability again for the tenth or twelfth time and realized why it says swift action. Okay, just in case someone else did not catch this, let me explain what is going on here. You can choose one of the attacks in a full attack action to be the aimed shot, spend a point as a swift action, and if the attack is successful the extra effect happens along side the damage. This really, really needs to be rewritten if it takes that many readings to understand.
I also think the ability should use a single attack that takes a standard action. That way, this is ability is balanced properly and the choice is between more damage in a round or some damage with extra effect.
With the head, I can see what direction the ability is going, but I also believe there are better options. Confused does make sense given the ability deals with the subjects head, but I would rather focus on the head being kill zone for a shooter. Double the critical threat range would be okay if the starting range was already something other then 20. Spending a point to gain only another 5% chance that the hit is a critical hit is not going to be considered. If spending the point would give me an additional 10% or 15% then I would consider the point. If the doubling of critical threat range stacked with Improved Critical or Keen then I would really be into the idea of spending a point.
So why not consider tripling the threat range, and have it stack with improved critical or keen? Well, now that sanity is returning to me, I want to look at the numbers. The normal threat range is 20. Tripling it would make it 18-20. Improved critical and tripling it would make it 15-20, the same as a keen scimitar or rapier. But wait, only a few other weapons have x4 critical damage. Having a 30% chance to deal four times the amount of damage is enough to make me rethink that suggestion, but I am still going to leave it. I might be wrong that it is too powerful.
My finial suggestion for head is increase the critical range to 17-20 for that attack. This would not stack any other threat range changing ability. An extra 15% is something I would be willing to spend a point on, but I would also think twice about spending the point.
The torso needs to change if the head gains the change to the threat range. I almost suggested bleed, but Bleeding Wound does that. How about giving the target the nauseated, shaken, or fatigued conditions? The gunslinger can choose which one to give the target. The condition should last only a single round.
The arms force someone to drop an item. I can see this really being abused. How about strength drain? 1d4 strength damage shouldn’t be a game breaker, and adding that this ability cannot be used twice on the same target should prevent someone from abusing the ability.
The legs concern me. I like that you can force someone prone but lets at least have the roll for this ability take place of a Trip attack. If the attack roll beats the CMD of the target, they are tripped. This can work with flying creatures too. This should solve the problem that a gargantuan flying creature can be brought down with a single shot. I doubt a single shot to a wing roughly 20 – 30 yards long is going to damage it enough to force it to stop flapping.
With all the changes, here is how I feel this ability should be written:
Targeting (Ex): At 7th level, a gunslinger can take aim for greater accuracy and effect. With a standard action, the gunslinger can spend 1 grit point, choose one of the parts of the body listed below and make a single attack. If the attack is successful, it deals damage normally and gains an additional effect related to the part of the body targeted.
If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that body location cannot be targeted. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack are immune to these effects.
• Head: Targeting the head makes the critical range for the attack 17-20. This ability does not stack with other critical range altering effects.
• Torso: On a hit, the attack also gives the target one of the following conditions: nauseated, shaken, or fatigued. The gunslinger chooses which one. The condition lasts for one round.
• Arms: On a hit, the target also takes 1d4 strength damage. This ability does not stack with other targeted hits to the arms.
• Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is also subject to a free trip attempt, substituting the attack roll for the combat maneuver check. This trip attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the target is flying and the trip attempt is successful then the creature falls.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Bleeding Wound (Ex): At 11th level, when a gunslinger hits a living creature with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point as a free action to have that attack deal extra bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage is equal to the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier. Alternatively, the gunslinger can spend 2 grit points to deal 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed damage (gunslinger’s choice) instead. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to either type of bleed damage.
So the ability to add damage after a successful attack is something found in at least one monk archetype, so this looks balanced. It is also clear, and I am pretty sure I understand how this works.
On a successful firearm attack, a single grit point can be spent to add bleed damage equal to the gunslingers Dexterity score.
Or, two points can be spent to add Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed to the attack. The gunslinger chooses which one.
I like it. I see nothing glaringly wrong with it. I understand it and I think it is clear enough for a novice player to understand it.
Keep it as is, or wait to change it until a few playtests report trouble with it.
Utility Shot (Ex): 11th level, a gunslinger can spend grit to use one of the following utility shots. All of the following uses of utility shot cost 1 grit point.
• Blast Lock: A gunslinger makes an attack roll against a lock within the first range increment of her firearm. A diminutive lock usually has AC 7, and larger locks have higher ACs. The lock gains a bonus to its AC against this attack based on its quality. A simple lock has +10 bonus to AC, an average lock has a +15 bonus to AC, a good lock has a +20 bonus to AC, and a superior lock has a +30 bonus to AC. Arcane lock grants a +10 bonus on the AC of a lock against this attack. On a hit, the lock is destroyed, and the object can be opened as if it were unlocked. On a miss, the lock is destroyed, but the object is jammed, and still considered locked. It can still be unlocked by performing this deed, the Disable Device skill, or with the break DC, though the DC or the AC increases by 10. A key, combination, or similar mechanical method of unlocking the lock no longer works, though knock can still be employed to bypass the lock, and the creator of an arcane lock can still bypass the wards of that spell.
• Scoot Unattended Object: The gunslinger makes an attack roll against a Tiny or smaller unattended object within the first range increment of her firearm. A Tiny unattended object has AC 5, a Diminutive unattended object has AC 7, and a Fine sized unattended object has AC 11. On a hit, you do not damage the object with the shot, but can move it up to 15 feet farther away from shot’s origin. On a miss, the gunslinger damages the object normally.
• Stop Bleeding: The gunslinger makes a firearm attack and presses the hot barrel on an adjacent creature to staunch a bleeding wound. Instead of dealing damage, the shot ends a single bleed condition affecting the creature. The gunslinger does not have to make an attack roll when it performing the deed in this way; she can shoot the firearm in the air, but that shot does use up ammunition normally.
Why are these 11th level? All three of these utility shots are horribly underpowered for their level. It takes a gunslinger that long to realize they can cauterize a wound with a hot barrel? They suddenly realize that they can blast a lock open? After ten levels of practice shooting with cans they finally understand that they can shoot an object to move it?
Alright, I understand that curing the bleed condition in the middle of battle is pretty impressive. I also understand that it takes a good shot to blow off a lock. The moving an object 15 feet takes a good aim. However, the other classes that can do the tasks these utility shots are meant to do (open a lock, mage hand, and stop bleed,) can do them around first level.
We will look into changing levels on the abilities later. Right now, I am going to take these apart.
I like the concept of blast lock. I am struggling to find many reasons to use it though. Maybe we don't have time to pick the lock to the door and the bad guy is getting away. Maybe someone is locked in a chest and they are going to die if we don't hurry. Maybe the rogue died on the other side of the locked door. The fact is, if I can avoid using this ability, I would. I would not be surprised if this ability was never used by a character who progressed through all 20 levels. But, lets try to keep this ability and find how to make it work better.
The first detail I am wary about is the armor classes of the locks. A diminutive simple lock has an armor class of 17. Add Arcane lock and it is 27. That seems slightly extreme to me for the least effective lock. Keep the +10 arcane lock gives the armor class. Make the armor classes for the qualities as follows: Simple 5, Average 10, Good 15, Superior 20. Now the armor class is for that same lock is 12, or 22 for an arcane locked one. That is seems right. The superior lock is still high enough (37) to make me think twice about blasting it.
Scoot unattended object makes me want to find some situation where I would want to spend a point just so I can move an object 15 feet. Maybe if I was fighting on the edge of a volcano and the one true ring was on the ground and Golum was rushing towards it. The problem is, there are not that many unattended objects in the middle of a fight that I would want to move with a shot.
That being said, the only thing broken with this is the fact you can't use it until level 11.
The Stop Bleeding utility shot is expensive. Not only do I spend a grit point, but I also have to spend the cost of a shot. Not to mention the time it takes to reload. I would rather let this be a swift action after an attack on an enemy. That way, the shot is not wasted, but the ability to stop bleed still costs a grit point.
Scoot unattended object makes me want to find some situation where I would want to spend a point just so I can move an object 15 feet. Maybe if I was fighting on the edge of a volcano and the one true ring was on the ground and Golum was rushing towards it. The problem is, there are not that many unattended objects in the middle of a fight that I would want to move with a shot.
Well, once you have disarmed the BBG of his awesome artifact weapon, you can now insult him by having it dance closer to the melee fighter.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Scoot unattended object makes me want to find some situation where I would want to spend a point just so I can move an object 15 feet. Maybe if I was fighting on the edge of a volcano and the one true ring was on the ground and Golum was rushing towards it. The problem is, there are not that many unattended objects in the middle of a fight that I would want to move with a shot.Well, once you have disarmed the BBG of his awesome artifact weapon, you can now insult him by having it dance closer to the melee fighter.
As cool as that idea is, the weapon would need to be a fine object, which would mean it has to be at least a simple weapon for a medium creature or a one handed for a small creature. But, the BBG should be large, so not even his dagger would be able to be moved.
I still liked the idea, I am just sad to point out how it wouldn't work.
Scoot unattended object makes me want to find some situation where I would want to spend a point just so I can move an object 15 feet. Maybe if I was fighting on the edge of a volcano and the one true ring was on the ground and Golum was rushing towards it. The problem is, there are not that many unattended objects in the middle of a fight that I would want to move with a shot.Well, once you have disarmed the BBG of his awesome artifact weapon, you can now insult him by having it dance closer to the melee fighter.As cool as that idea is, the weapon would need to be a fine object, which would mean it has to be at least a simple weapon for a medium creature or a one handed for a small creature. But, the BBG should be large, so not even his dagger would be able to be moved.
I still liked the idea, I am just sad to point out how it wouldn't work.
Dark priests holy symbol?
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Startling Shot (Ex): At 15th level, whenever a gunslinger has at least 1 grit point and misses a creature with a firearm attack, the target of the missed attack becomes flat-footed until the start of its next turn. A gunslinger cannot purposely choose to miss a target in order to gain this effect.
This a neat ability, but this is going to be abused. I know it is hard for a gunslinger to have a full attack, but I am sure it can be done at this level. I am going to assume that it is easily possible to not only have a full attack, but that it can be done round after round. At these high levels, a full attack has one guaranteed hit, one good chance hit, one that could miss, and one that will more then likely miss. Add in an off-hand attack and the chance of a miss rises considerably. My point? You can keep someone flat-footed for considerable amounts of time just by doing full attacks. The rogue then steps in to sneak attack and the fighter leaps in with this deadly stroke. In no time the target is down and out.
Of course we might not see full attacks with firearms often enough to keep a target flat-footed for an entire combat. To be safe, this needs to cost a grit point instead of being free for as long as 1 grit point is in the pool.
Expert Loading (Ex): At 15th level, whenever a gunslinger rolls a misfire with a gun that has the broken condition, she can spend 1 grit point to keep the gun from exploding, though it retains the broken condition.
The name and the ability have nothing to do with each other. I guess the gunslinger knows how to load a broken gun so that it wont explode.
Should the change I proposed earlier for quick clear is made, this ability won't be used a whole lot. Lets make this a feat and change this to something that compliments the name, and can be used often enough to be useful.
Lightening reload is going to be a feat the gunslinger needs by this level. I suggest expert loading expand that feat. If the gunslinger does not have it by now, they gain it. If they do have lightening reload, the ability no longer costs 1 grit point but can be done as long as there is 1 grit point in the pool.
Stunning Shot (Ex): 19th level, when a gunslinger scores a critical hit, she can spend 1 grit point to deal normal damage and stun the creature for 1 round. Creatures that are immune to critical hits are also immune to this effect. Performing this deed does not allow the gunslinger to regain grit from confirming a critical hit.
I am concerned about the level that this ability comes into play at. The reason is the cost over result. Lets take a look at this in more detail.
The gunslinger needs a critical hit and they need to spend a grit point. The critical hit then does not have the damage multiplied, but instead the stunned condition is tacked on to the normal damage. That means the x4 damage is part of that cost.
I would not spend a grit point on this ability at 19th level. Add the stunned condition to the critical damage and then it fits the level. Oh, but 19th level has another critical hit ability, deadly shot. Why would I stun someone when I can kill them? I will look at the abilities and when they should be given the gunslinger later, but you can count on this one being a lower level so that it sees some action.
Deadly Shot (Ex): At 19th level, when a gunslinger confirms a critical hit against a living creature, she can spend 1 grit point to choose to deal normal damage, and the target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier. On a failed saving throw, the target dies. This is a death effect. Performing this deed does not allow her to regain grit from confirming a critical hit.
For a 19th level ability, this could work. The Monk's quivering palm comes at level 15, and the conditions for that save or die ability are less costly. The need for a critical hit and a grit point balance this out nicely enough. The writing for it is clear, the mechanics solid. Keep it as is.
And that is the end of the Deeds! The next post will be an overall critique of the Grit/Deeds system.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Overall Critique of the Grit and Deed system.
This is a cool concept, but it is poorly executed with so many issues with each of it's parts. As is, I would not recommend this system even with the changes I already suggested. The different deeds need to be placed at different levels, removed completely, or even made into feats. The point system is also something I am not sure works well enough for the purposes of this class.
There are also so many great ideas and tricks that could be deeds that are not part of this system that I think what is written is just scratching the surface of possibility. For example, the classic trick shot of tossing something into the air and shooting it or firing the gun with your back to the target. What about Kentucky Windage? I think this system needs to be expanded even more.
The problem with expansion is with how Grit and Deeds are written. As is, cramming more deeds into this system would make it worse. Making extra deeds into feats would starve the gunslinger of feats, and they are already in need of more of them.
I suggest that we change the system. I can't find any reason to mix the power point system with a discovery system. This will make the system even more unique to an already unique class, and I believe it will still be balanced. As is, they have more tricks then a monk, who has more ki points to use. We can give them a wider selection of tricks to customize their class with, but have them rely on points to use.
Why suggest this? Well, no two gunslingers should be the same, and as is there is little room to create different types of gunslingers. The build options are extremely limited, and the class encourages multi-classing, as opposed to other classes that reward sticking with them through all 20 levels. Giving them a wide range of deeds to use to customize the class will provide a possibility for many types of builds. Letting them use points will allow slightly more powerful abilities at lower levels to help the gunslinger overcome some of the drawbacks of the firearms. That is why I suggest the mix of points and discovery.
When I rewrite the class completely, I will expand on this idea.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Alright, I really want to finish the critique of the individual class features before I do a few rebuilds of the class. That is right, I said "few rebuilds" as in more then one.
Brave and Tough (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a gunslinger gains a +1 bonus on Fortitude saving throws, and a +1 bonus on Will saving throws against fear. This bonus increases for every four levels beyond 2nd level.
This is like the Bravery class feature the fighter gains, but better. Maybe this is one of the ways to help this class match the fighter in ability, but it wouldn't be enough. Why not, just give the Gunslinger a higher fortitude save? I honestly would rather scrap this to make room for other class features.
Bonus Feats: At 4th level, and every four levels thereafter, a gunslinger gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained by normal advancement. These bonus feats must be combat or grit feats.
And this is what I would expand to replace Brave and Tough. I love bonus feats, but the gunslinger needs more. More on this with class rebuilds.
Gun Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as pistol or musket). She gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls with that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses with those types as well.
Yet one of the hints that there will be more firearms released with Ultimate Combat. Hopefully the selection will have more then just four.
I can see some potential for this ability, and I can think of a few changes that can be made to better it. For example, why not scale the bonus to hit with the fire arm each time you gain this again, like how the fighter’s weapon training or the rangers favored terrain bonuses grow as you pick new weapon groups or terrains. I also think the ability needs to have a growing damage bonus. I love the bonus to damage equal to dexterity, and I would love to keep this.
The change in misfire value is nice, and I would keep it with the ability as is.
Gaining this class feature at 5th level might give the bonuses a little later then they are needed.
True Grit (Ex): At 20th level a gunslinger picks two deeds that she has access to and that she must spend grit to perform. She can perform these deeds for 1 less grit point (minimum 0). If the number of grit points to perform the deed is reduced to 0, the gunslinger can perform this deed as long as she has at least 1 grit point.
I really need to look into all the other capstone class features to see how this one compares, but this looks balanced and proper. The writing in it is clear and short. Unless I or someone else can think of a better capstone, I say keep it.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Thoughts before class rebuild experimentation.
I can see how this is supposed to be an alternate for the fighter class as it has no spell like abilities and focuses on combat. After that, there is little resemblance. If it is to be a real alternative to the fighter, it needs to at least give the fighter a challenge, and this class does not even come close to doing that. An alternate class also needs to emulate at least some of the class features and the feel of the class it is replacing. This class might focus on dealing damage through weapons, but it has little in it’s class features to suggest that it is an alternate of the fighter. There can be two solutions to this problem.
The first is to recreate the class as a base class. Firearms, grit, and deeds are all unique enough to make this possible. This class does feel closer to the Monk with it’s ability to spend points on tricks, but it does not have the same focus. It is an explosive class, like the alchemist, but nowhere near as mystical. It focuses on combat with a few weapons like the fighter, but allows tricks with them no fighter can accomplish. The tricks are extraordinary in nature like a rogue talent, but the gunslinger is more brash and bold in their style. Because of all that, it would be perfectly fine to recreate the class as a base class that fits into the warrior role.
The second solution is to rebuild this class to be closer to the fighter and keep it as an alternative. This would mean either scrapping the grit system completely or rebuilding it to fit better in a fighter alternative class. The need for the same amount of bonus feats is also there, as well as looking into ways to make a gunslinger a choice someone won’t regret playing in place of another type of fighter. This would mean making it possible for a gunslinger to deal enough damage per round to rival a fighter wielding almost any other weapon.
Some might notice that I have said nothing about firearms and the rules in place for them. I was at first disappointed about a few issues with them, but I looked at them a few more times and realized no matter what the change there will always be something that someone will complain about. There will be more firearms, hopefully far better ones, for the gunslinger to use. Of course, I am sure people complained about guns when they were not as available as they are now, claiming they were not as efficient or worthy of battle as some of the other weapons. The brave souls who picked them up and became masters of their use silenced those critics (hopefully not by shooting them) and became the masters of battle. Legends arose, even in the early days of firearms, of the feats and abilities of these men and how they overcame the challenges and shortcomings of the guns. These are the people we are trying to recreate with this class. The myths and legends of the early firearm.
Today, we take firearms for granted, having grown up with them or even chosen a career that uses them. We think that things need to be a certain way and when rules, like the ones printed in the playtest, come up that we find lacking in some way we cry foul. We gnash our teeth, and loudly proclaim that they need to change or else. I can tell you though, that often it is not the complainer that is recognized for their deeds, but the one who picks up the object the critics are decrying and runs with it. It is that brave soul who will inevitably find the gems and treasure waiting to be polished, and it he who will find the way to silence the naysayers and critics.