From the beginning, my concern with the "Tian Xia" classes has been that they not be obviously better than their "Inner Sea" counterparts just because, "Well, duh, ninjas/samurais are way cooler than boring old thieves/fighters." (Yeah, cavaliers, I know. Whatever.) I don't play fighters or cavaliers so my opinion on the other playtest classes is worth very little, but rogues are one of my favorite classes so I've been a bit uptight about the advent of the ninja.
On a first glance, I appreciate that Paizo hasn't gone overboard with all the abilities that have been attributed to the ninja by some. The basic outline is really much less mystical than I feared it might be. (Keep in mind, I haven't taken a look at the ninja tricks yet. For the purposes of this post, I'm just looking at the overall class abilities.) What I really want to know is, does the Ninja make the Rogue less viable? Is it a no-brainer to say, "Well, my PC just arrived in Nirmathas from Tian Xia," just so you can be a ninja rather than a rogue?
So, I'm going over the differences between the Rogue and the Ninja, looking for balance. Here goes:
Class skills
Rogue gets Knowledge (dungeoneering). Ninja gets Knowledge (nobility). Entirely justifiable choice flavor-wise. In most games, dungeoneering is probably going to come up more often than nobility.
Edge: Rogue
Weapon proficiencies
Rogue gets simple weapons, plus hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Ninja gets simple weapons, plus kama, katana, nunchaku, sai, short sword, shortbow, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. That's four extra weapon proficiencies for the ninja. In a Inner Sea campaign, that difference is going to be offset by the fact that the rogue's weapons are far more common. In a campaign in Tian Xia (like the latter part of Jade Regent, supposedly), however, that's a definite plus for the ninja.
Slight and circumstantial edge: Ninja
Level one class abilities
Rogue gets trapfinding -- a bonus to Perception & Disable Device and the ability to disarm magical traps. Ninja gets poison use. (Can the ninja really not disarm magical traps? That seems odd flavorwise, with their reputation for mystical infiltration. Maybe it's in the ninja tricks. I'll look in a bit.) I find poison use underwhelming in general, but I suppose it has its places.
Silght edge: Rogue (imo)
Level two class abilities
Rogue gets evasion. Ninja gets ki pool. This, for me, is the clearest point where the ninja is better than the rogue. Evasion is certainly a useful ability, but it doesn't offer the flexibility the ki pool does: an extra attack, speed increase or Stealth bonus. Plus, as long as the ninja has ki points left, she gets bonuses to jump all day! This is where my rogue is glaring at the ninja out of the corner of her eyes and muttering under her breath.
Edge: Ninja
Level three class abilities
Rogue gets trap sense. Ninja gets no trace. Honestly, trap sense is one of the most underwhelming class abilities out there, imo. Who ever says, "Man, I can't wait to gain a level so I can get trap sense!!!"? Serves a purpose, but definitely not sexy. No trace is a cooler name, but the actual mechanics are kind of "meh" imo, as well. Flavorwise, it fits the ninjas as masters of stealth rumored to be able to disappear into thin air.
Edge: even
Capstone abilities
Seems a bit unfair to judge classes by abilities 99% of PCs will never get to, but they're on the table. Rogue gets master strike -- the ability to paralyze, slay or put to sleep her target with a successful sneak attack. Ninja gets hidden master -- the ability to cast greater invisibility on herself, plus sacrifice sneak attack dice to apply a penalty to an ability score of her choice.
This is where the ninja goes completely off the rails for me. Look at all those restrictions on master strike: Fort save to negate the capstone ability entirely, and once you've tried it on someone, even if they make their save, they're immune to your capstone ability for 24 hours. Lame. Compare the wording on hidden master, which goes out of its way to remove restrictions. The greater invisibility effect is specifically cited as being immune to invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing. And whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage all day long, she can apply ability score penalties.
Edge: Dude, seriously? The 20th-level Ninja is totally pointing and laughing at the 20th-level Rogue.
Summary: The ki pool is a little much, imo, and the capstone ability is totally nuts. Honestly, I'd prefer that the rogue capstone ability be made a little cooler -- at least loosen some of the restrictions on it -- but since the rogue class is done and the ninja is under discussion, it has to be toned down. Please. Think of Merisiel.
Okay, having looked at the Rogue & Advanced Talents vs. Ninja & Master Tricks, I don't really have a problem with them. The Ninja has some mystical options available that go beyond Minor & Major Magic, but that's the mystical flavor the class and they have to use their ki for it. (The exception is Wall Climber, which is so supernatural in effect that it really ought to have a ki cost, imo. The rest of the tricks that go beyond mundane possibility do.) As I said above, I think the ki pool might be a little much in comparision with evasion, but options are limited as to how to include the more mystical ninja flavor. The fact that the ki pool is tied to Charisma helps to balance it, as so many people like to use Cha as a dump stat. Yeah, there's a lot of powerful stuff in the trick list, but you only get ten over twenty levels, so that's self-limiting there.
I was a little concerned by the posts stating that ninjas could take rogue talents but rogues couldn't take ninja talents, but much like Combat Trick, Rogue Talent and Advanced Talent can both only be taken once. That limits Ninjas to only one rogue talent and one advanced talent, which doesn't seem overpowered to me. That said, though, it would be nice if what's good for the goose is good for the gander; that is, if the additional rogue talents and advanced talents in Ultimate Combat include Ninja Trick and Master Trick, with the caveat that rogues don't gain a ki pool so they'd be limited to non-ki-spending tricks unless they have monk levels. (And, hey, if you don't fix Wall Climber to be ki based, I know which one my rogue's taking!)
So, overall, I'm really pretty pleased with the ninja, barring the capstone ability, which is still nuts. Well done, Paizo. I've been wanting to roll up a Library Ninja a la Jacob Two-Two for a while now. Maybe I'll see what I can come up with. :)
In my opinion, it's less a problem with the ninja, more a problem with the rogue being shackled to "NOT MAGICAL, CANNOT HAVE FUN TOYS."
Also re: weapon proficiency, short bow basically beats everything else the ninja has, for what it's worth.
In my opinion, it's less a problem with the ninja, more a problem with the rogue being shackled to "NOT MAGICAL, CANNOT HAVE FUN TOYS."
Also re: weapon proficiency, short bow basically beats everything else the ninja has, for what it's worth.
Also kama = sickle (seriously...these should be the same weapon), siangham = worse short sword, and I'd give the edge to rogue for one reason...the sap. Why? Because it's nonlethal...which means nonlethal sneak attacks, if you want, which ninja don't have a proficiency for (well, unarmed, but that has its own problems, like AoOs).
Level six class ability or lack thereof
Huh, just noticed I missed the Light Steps ability entirely, probably because I was working my way down the rogue class description, and they get nothing new at 6th level. Once again, that's something my rogue wants and can't have. Three extra abilities at the same level seems unfair. Shouldn't this be a Ninja Trick option rather than just a free gimme? Rogue talent and trap sense +2 vs. ninja trick, no trace +2 and light steps?
Serious, no-contest edge: Ninja :(
The Ninja does point and pose his awesome Asianness before he laughs however.
Seriously those are rogue talents and as a rogue archetype any rogue should have access to them. Not just Asian rogues.
Level six class ability or lack thereof
Huh, just noticed I missed the Light Steps ability entirely, probably because I was working my way down the rogue class description, and they get nothing new at 6th level. Once again, that's something my rogue wants and can't have. Three extra abilities at the same level seems unfair. Shouldn't this be a Ninja Trick option rather than just a free gimme? Rogue talent and trap sense +2 vs. ninja trick, no trace +2 and light steps?
Serious, no-contest edge: Ninja :(
Ninja doesn't get Evasion unless chosen as a level 10 Master Trick, though, and never gets Improved Evasion
Yeah, the capstone ability for the ninja seems pretty ludicrous. Patently ignoring most of the invisibility work-arounds and dealing ability penalties? For 2 ki points? No thank you. Maybe if it were 2 ki points a round, it'd be better. Maybe.
Yeah, the capstone ability for the ninja seems pretty ludicrous. Patently ignoring most of the invisibility work-arounds and dealing ability penalties? For 2 ki points? No thank you. Maybe if it were 2 ki points a round, it'd be better. Maybe.
Look, it's level 20.
If the problem comes down to one capstone being rediculous and the other not, then the non-rediculous one should be made rediculous to counter it.
Level 20 capstones SHOULD be rediculous and over the top.
I'd like to see a ninja point and laugh at me. I'd teach her a thing or two! (Especially since those stats you see of me printed in those silly books are all part of my master plan to throw you all off balance... in real life, I'm MUCH more powerful. In that I have at least four more daggers than those stats say I do! STAB!!!!)
Level 20 capstones SHOULD be rediculous and over the top.
+ 1 dear Professor.
I'd like to see a ninja point and laugh at me. I'd teach her a thing or two! (Especially since those stats you see of me printed in those silly books are all part of my master plan to throw you all off balance... in real life, I'm MUCH more powerful. In that I have at least four more daggers than those stats say I do! STAB!!!!)
Merisiel: Now backed up by the Stabbington Brothers. :p
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Yeah, the capstone ability for the ninja seems pretty ludicrous. Patently ignoring most of the invisibility work-arounds and dealing ability penalties? For 2 ki points? No thank you. Maybe if it were 2 ki points a round, it'd be better. Maybe.Look, it's level 20.
If the problem comes down to one capstone being rediculous and the other not, then the non-rediculous one should be made rediculous to counter it.
Level 20 capstones SHOULD be rediculous and over the top.
+1 Cirno.
Well, it is almost certain that ninjas will be able to take the feat "extra ninja trick" (and multiple times), so the number of ninja tricks is upwardly mobile. On the other hand - it is pretty likely that there will be a mirrored "ninja trick rogue talent" for rogues to take.
Lastly, I would not be entirely surprised/shocked/aghast if the ki pool ability is opened up to more classes via archetypes or feats. Possibly as early as Ultimate Magic - since it promises new ki features.
Ninja doesn't get Evasion unless chosen as a level 10 Master Trick, though, and never gets Improved EvasionLevel six class ability or lack thereof
Huh, just noticed I missed the Light Steps ability entirely, probably because I was working my way down the rogue class description, and they get nothing new at 6th level. Once again, that's something my rogue wants and can't have. Three extra abilities at the same level seems unfair. Shouldn't this be a Ninja Trick option rather than just a free gimme? Rogue talent and trap sense +2 vs. ninja trick, no trace +2 and light steps?
Serious, no-contest edge: Ninja :(
Yeah, I thought of that after I went to bed last night. The Rogue still has to use her limited number of Advanced Talents to take Improved Evasion, though, which is why I think Light Steps ought to be a Trick too and not a free class ability.
On capstones, I also would much rather see the Rogue get something cooler than what she gets. Since Ultimate Combat is creating the Ninja rather than re-writing the Rogue, however, that's not in the cards, and giving the Ninja an uber-cool trump-card capstone ability when the Rogue's is all saving-throwed and once-every-24-hours is just NOT BALANCED.
Honestly, the Ninja class seems more and more like it should be a Prestige class to me (and I know they're unpopular and, once again, not in the cards for this book). It's a little weird to think of a neophyte, first-level ninja. What can a rogue do that a ninja can't? Yeah, I know the playtest class says "evasion and disabling magic traps," but those seem to me like things a ninja should be able to do, too. What can a ninja do that a rogue can't? All the mystical ki-pool stuff. That seems like classic Prestige-class material to me, when a PC with base class abilities also gets other class-specific abilities. Wouldn't it make more sense that a rogue level up until she meets the pre-reqs for being a ninja, at which time she is initiated into the order and gains the ki pool, etc.? Of course, then you're still facing balance issues so a Rogue 10/Ninja 10 isn't better than a Rogue 20, so I don't know if that really solves the problem.
Yeah, the capstone ability for the ninja seems pretty ludicrous. Patently ignoring most of the invisibility work-arounds and dealing ability penalties? For 2 ki points? No thank you. Maybe if it were 2 ki points a round, it'd be better. Maybe.
Oh yeah?!?! Have you ever seen a master ninja?
Well, there you go.How else do they get candy in your pockets?
Ninja doesn't get Evasion unless chosen as a level 10 Master Trick, though, and never gets Improved EvasionLevel six class ability or lack thereof
Huh, just noticed I missed the Light Steps ability entirely, probably because I was working my way down the rogue class description, and they get nothing new at 6th level. Once again, that's something my rogue wants and can't have. Three extra abilities at the same level seems unfair. Shouldn't this be a Ninja Trick option rather than just a free gimme? Rogue talent and trap sense +2 vs. ninja trick, no trace +2 and light steps?
Serious, no-contest edge: Ninja :(Yeah, I thought of that after I went to bed last night. The Rogue still has to use her limited number of Advanced Talents to take Improved Evasion, though, which is why I think Light Steps ought to be a Trick too and not a free class ability.
On capstones, I also would much rather see the Rogue get something cooler than what she gets. Since Ultimate Combat is creating the Ninja rather than re-writing the Rogue, however, that's not in the cards, and giving the Ninja an uber-cool trump-card capstone ability when the Rogue's is all saving-throwed and once-every-24-hours is just NOT BALANCED.
Honestly, the Ninja class seems more and more like it should be a Prestige class to me (and I know they're unpopular and, once again, not in the cards for this book). It's a little weird to think of a neophyte, first-level ninja. What can a rogue do that a ninja can't? Yeah, I know the playtest class says "evasion and disabling magic traps," but those seem to me like things a ninja should be able to do, too. What can a ninja do that a rogue can't? All the mystical ki-pool stuff. That seems like classic Prestige-class material to me, when a PC with base class abilities also gets other class-specific abilities. Wouldn't it make more sense that a rogue level up until she meets the pre-reqs for...
Just speculation here...
But James has mentioned that there will be more archtypes in the UC book. Perhaps there will be one that makes this discussion irrelevant.Not enough info for an informed convo on the topic, imho.
Oh yeah?!?! Have you ever seen a master ninja?
Well, there you go.How else do they get candy in your pockets?
I steal it.
I steal it.Oh yeah?!?! Have you ever seen a master ninja?
Well, there you go.How else do they get candy in your pockets?
<---- Sad Panda :(
<---- Sad Panda :(I steal it.Oh yeah?!?! Have you ever seen a master ninja?
Well, there you go.How else do they get candy in your pockets?
I cannot resist the power of sad panda and give it back.
I'd like to see a ninja point and laugh at me. I'd teach her a thing or two! (Especially since those stats you see of me printed in those silly books are all part of my master plan to throw you all off balance... in real life, I'm MUCH more powerful. In that I have at least four more daggers than those stats say I do! STAB!!!!)
oh no.... She had heard you, your all doomed I tell you doomed.
all must bow to the brilliance of the Lady MERisiel Sllvari as if you don't she might stabb you.....
I would say something along the lines of "The Ninja is more powerful at first glance, but is balanced because it is ridiculously MAD," but I don't want to get pigeonholed to death.
I would say something along the lines of "The Ninja is more powerful at first glance, but is balanced because it is ridiculously MAD," but I don't want to get pigeonholed to death.
The reason I hate this arguement is because I do not think they are that MAD one and two if you play with a 25 point buy or roll your stats it is almost a given that "being MAD" will not be a problem for you.
Being MAD or SAD shouldn't not be a balancing feature in my opinion, all classes should use about the same number of abilities (2 or 3) no matter which way you slice it the rogue needs 3 abilities. So does the ninja really. Its no different.
I could go along with everyone elses discussion but what I find humorous about this thread is the notion of the iconics actually laughing at each other.
It's like when the guy in a wheelchair laughs at the other guy cause he has a walking stick. Both are cripples.
I'd like to see a ninja point and laugh at me. I'd teach her a thing or two! (Especially since those stats you see of me printed in those silly books are all part of my master plan to throw you all off balance... in real life, I'm MUCH more powerful. In that I have at least four more daggers than those stats say I do! STAB!!!!)
Dear Ms. Sillvari,
It is my distinguished duty to inform you that it is on. I had hoped that you would have realized that you had been served, and that you would have accepted this inevitable humiliation as the natural order of things (after all, I am featured in a new rule book with the world "Ultimate" in the title. I guess some people never get the hint ...). I laugh at you and your aerodynamically challenged "knives" (they don't play ultimate frisbee where you live, I take it...) And your beanpole figure looks to me like one of these. Sufficed to say, I have the inexplicable urge to slice you in half.
So to reiterate, it is on. You've been served.
Ever your's,
Iconic Ninja >^.^<
P.S. hugs!!!!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Couple replies.
ProfessorCirno, the ninja can get improved evasion. "Advanced Talents: The ninja can select a rogue talent from the list of Advanced Talents in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select improved
evasion unless she has evasion (either as a class feature or as a ninja master trick)."
Emphasis mine. No problem if you missed it on reading, I missed a couple of things.
Kryzbyn, I don't feel we can argue the ninja is balanced or unbalanced based on 'what might be in the book' for th Playtest we have to assume the worst, and that the book won't be 'rogue powerups'.
Joana, I think you've hit my big grievance with the ninja. The 'classic ninja' can do everything the rogue can do. Game reality says that for an archtype they give stuff up. The Ki Pool replaces evasion, but is a lot more flexible. Their tricks are equal to major magic over and over again, and some are better than major magic, with the occasional expendature of ki, either to use or recharge.
The problem is, unlike every other archtype and 'alternate class' the ninja does the rogue's job better, except for trapfinding. The only other area they lack is evasion, and they can get that at 10th level (and improved at 13th)
My money is on the thin lady with silver hair and the knives...after all remember who's alias she is.
Couple replies.
ProfessorCirno, the ninja can get improved evasion. "Advanced Talents: The ninja can select a rogue talent from the list of Advanced Talents in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select improved
evasion unless she has evasion (either as a class feature or as a ninja master trick)."
Emphasis mine. No problem if you missed it on reading, I missed a couple of things.Kryzbyn, I don't feel we can argue the ninja is balanced or unbalanced based on 'what might be in the book' for th Playtest we have to assume the worst, and that the book won't be 'rogue powerups'.
Joana, I think you've hit my big grievance with the ninja. The 'classic ninja' can do everything the rogue can do. Game reality says that for an archtype they give stuff up. The Ki Pool replaces evasion, but is a lot more flexible. Their tricks are equal to major magic over and over again, and some are better than major magic, with the occasional expendature of ki, either to use or recharge.
The problem is, unlike every other archtype and 'alternate class' the ninja does the rogue's job better, except for trapfinding. The only other area they lack is evasion, and they can get that at 10th level (and improved at 13th)
Do you realize taking Evasion and then the Improved version costs the ninja 2 advanced talents, and the rogue can use that space for things like Hunter's Surprise and Knockout Blow?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Do you realize taking Evasion and then the Improved version costs the ninja 2 advanced talents, and the rogue can use that space for things like Hunter's Surprise and Knockout Blow?
And until we see Ki Pool (with all the benefits) as an Advanced Rogue talent, it doesn't change that the ninja can fill that 'hole' in their skills, the rogue can not.
And until we see Ki Pool (with all the benefits) as an Advanced Rogue talent, it doesn't change that the ninja can fill that 'hole' in their skills, the rogue can not.
Do you realize taking Evasion and then the Improved version costs the ninja 2 advanced talents, and the rogue can use that space for things like Hunter's Surprise and Knockout Blow?
There is already a rogue with Ki. is the Ninja.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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There is already a rogue with Ki. is the Ninja.And until we see Ki Pool (with all the benefits) as an Advanced Rogue talent, it doesn't change that the ninja can fill that 'hole' in their skills, the rogue can not.
Do you realize taking Evasion and then the Improved version costs the ninja 2 advanced talents, and the rogue can use that space for things like Hunter's Surprise and Knockout Blow?
Proving that the ninja is a better rogue... with an accent.
Proving that the ninja is a better rogue... with an accent.There is already a rogue with Ki. is the Ninja.And until we see Ki Pool (with all the benefits) as an Advanced Rogue talent, it doesn't change that the ninja can fill that 'hole' in their skills, the rogue can not.
Do you realize taking Evasion and then the Improved version costs the ninja 2 advanced talents, and the rogue can use that space for things like Hunter's Surprise and Knockout Blow?
Respectfully, it seems to me we are going in circles.
The ninja gets a Ki pool to make certain stuff work better. He loses Evasion to take Ki.
Best Ki stuff, you take it with high level talents. Ghost Step, Invisible Blade as examples. To take evasion, you must giv up or delay things like these.
Think about it in these terms. Ki> Evasion, But Trapfinding > Poison Use.
As a side note, people talks about Ki as it would be infinite. Is not.
Would anyone mind making a list of all the rogue talents a ninja doesn't have access to?
The ninja may get more ninja tricks but I am pretty sure the list of talents he cant have is pretty long, which sounds pretty balanced to me
It might happen in public but behind closed doors I bet they practice slight of hand on each other to see who has the softest touch. :)
I tired not to make this dirty, both of them being chicks and all, but you just had to go there
IMO, the loss of trapfinding more than makes up for anything else the ninja might do better than the basic rogue. Trapfinding is one of the main reasons why most groups I've played with want a rogue in the party :)
If trapfinding is better than posion use why does the Rogue Archetype poisoner replace it for something lesser?
And if your arguement is archetypes are supposed to be weaker, let me remind you that the ninja is a huge archetype that is much better than the rogue at the moment for a number of reasons.
Like for one Traps literally mean shit to the ninja since they get light steps, which means they can by pass all location trigger traps (almost all traps fall into that category).
Does the iconic Ninja point and laugh at Merisiel?
Yes.
Does the iconic Ninja point and laugh at Merisiel?Yes.
Can merisiel hear or see her doing it? probably not.... if the ninja can even find her... odd game of hide and sneak really
. Trapfinding is one of the main reasons why most groups I've played with want a rogue in the party :)
Perhaps you did, but trapfinding is not needed.
in 3.x you needed a rogue, now all classes can find and disable traps.We played War of the burning sky from level 1 - 14 without a rogue. No problem. We had a druid and a monk with high perception.
Dealing with traps? All classes can find and disable traps, but only rogues can disable magical ones.
So without a rogue,..
Most classes don't have trapfinding or disable device as a class skill, yet the game works fine without rogues.
.
IMO, the loss of trapfinding more than makes up for anything else the ninja might do better than the basic rogue
IMO, the loss of trapfinding makes up nothing. Even most rogue archetypes doesn't have trapfinding so clearly you don't need it.
^ this is a problem with the rogue, not a problem with the ninja
Do you realize taking Evasion and then the Improved version costs the ninja 2 advanced talents, and the rogue can use that space for things like Hunter's Surprise and Knockout Blow?
Or the Ninja can pick 2 level shadowdancer or 2 levels monk.
I suspect a lot of players will pick 1 level SD to get hide in plain sight and 2 levels give you Evasion, Darkvision and U. Dodge.or....the Ninja can ignore evasion.
Sorry about my bad English but I hope will get the message across anyway:
Evasion is the most overrated ability in the game!
A) Most classes don't have Evasion and work fin anyway. (Would my bard like to have Evasion? Yes. Does she need it? No)
B) Ninjas have good reflex saves and will need it less anyway
C1) Ninja is also a dex class and will thus need it even less since high dex + good reflex saves = No problem.
C2) If you don't build a dex ninja you won't need evasion anyway.
D) Reflex saves are the less important in the game. Lose will save = you're out. Lose fort save = = you're dead, lose reflex save = = you get some damage.
So to sum it up: Most classes don't get evasion work fine anyway. Besides Ninja have good reflex saves and a high dex and since failed reflex saves usually don't kill / take you out loss of evasion means no big deal.
^ this is a problem with the rogue, not a problem with the ninja
Sorry but what do you mean?
"this is a problem with the rogue"? What are you refering to?I love Pathfinder have removed the need of a trapfinding rogue. You can play a ranger, or a monk, or a rogue archetypes without trapfinding, or a druid. anything with high perception. Detect magic at will helps.
The 3.x motto "every party must have a xxx" sucked.