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The last time he played D&D was 2nd edition. He's still learning the pathfinder rules. I've never been very happy with my own attempts to build dex-based fighters, so I don't feel like I've been advising him well. Can I get some ideas? Here are the parameters:
-He wants to play a Half-elf (not sure why)
-15 point buy for stats
-The character is a sailor of some kind
-Pretty sure he wants to stick with being a fighter
-He's joining the party at level 5
-Suggestions on what magical gear he might need are welcome, but I'm much more concerned with ability score, feat, and skill suggestions.
-Use Core Rulebook, along with feats, mundane gear, and class archetypes from the APG.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Is the campaing planned to go high levels? I ask because could matter for the planning of the build.
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I wouldn't recommend a dex-based two weapon fighting archetype without rogue levels for sneak attack damage. You need Strength to dish the damage in regular melee combat.
A multi-classed fighter/rogue gives you more feats at the loss of some abilities. I'd recommend a Fighter 2/Rogue 3 build to get him started and tell him not to get hung up on the "rogue" name of the class.
Otherwise, a Strength-build with a good dex fighter would be the way to go. Which will be tough at a 15-point buy. A sailor without acrobatics as a class skill might be a tad rough. Again, I recommend a rogue/fighter multiclass to get that 'swashbuckler' build.
Fighter 5
Str 14+2 (5), Dex 15 (7), Con 14 (5), Int 10, Wis 10, cha 8 (-2)
-or-
Fighter 2/Rogue 3
Str 14 (5), Dex 15+2 (7), Con 14 (5), int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 (-2)
In that case,what about fighitng with two kukri?
Take the
- Two Weapon Fighting Line
- Weapon Focus/Spec Line
- At high level, take critical feats (blinding and stunning at least).
15 point buy is quite dire for a TWF build, but try a 15/17/14/10/10/7 for half elf (dex 15 + 2 race). Raise Str to 16 at level 4.
Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Kukri), Double Slice, Weapon Specialization (Kukri), Power Attack, Weapon Finesse.
If his int manages to raise somewhat, combat expertise + agile maneuver for disarms, trips and dirty tricks (just because I think are in character).
Remember at higher levels feats to penetrate DR as an option, depending on the amount of loot in the campaing.
Take iron will as soon as possible.
For this low point buy, I'd suggest to not take weapon finesse and use Str anyway to hit .
What about the stuff in the Combat Expertise feat tree? Is that worth looking at?
The main problem here are stats - will he manage the 13 in prereq?
Another idea: not 2-weapon but dexterity based.
go 14 17 14 12 10 7 (Dex 15 + 2 racial). Raise int to 13 at level 4. (there should be a better combination, try it out).
Then, Take Weapon Finesse, Agile maneuvers, Combat Expertise, and (people will kill me) a spiked chain (EWP: Sppiked Chain), Weapon Focus: Spiked Chain, Power Attack.
Thereafter, Fill the Weapon Focus and the Combat Expertise maneuver line (Trip, dirty trick, disarm).
Take the dodge, mobility + combat patrol + combat reflexes line, and, if there is room, Dazzling Display.
Pro: All these feats don't make you a great damage dealer, but the control should be decent.
Con: triple dexterity feat tax.
EDIT: note: if the campaign is humanoid heavy, use Lunge (level 6)to perform maneuvers and then take the CE line feats when is possible.
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The last time he played D&D was 2nd edition. He's still learning the pathfinder rules. I've never been very happy with my own attempts to build dex-based fighters, so I don't feel like I've been advising him well. Can I get some ideas? Here are the parameters:
You've never been good at building them because a good build for a dex-based TWF just doesn't exist. Dex based builds in general suck, but only a rogue can make it remotely contribute to a party.
I probably wouldn't even try a rogue with a 15 point buy, though. Do your player a favor and either talk them out of this idea, or kill their character quickly so they can get on to a new one.
Statements that Dex fighters aren't viable just aren't true for all game types (EDIT: Not directed at you, Demoyn, just happened to be thinking this as I as typing, walked away from the post for a bit, then came back...). I think an important question here is what general type of game is this? Hack and slash? Lots of emphasis on combat/tactics? Or is it a balance of combat/social/tricks/puzzles? Etc.
In my games (I shot for the balanced approach) any character is viable as long as it's fun for the player to actually play. I'd have a lot of fun playing a Dex/Int based fighter with two-weapon fighting and Disarm/Trip. Use the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype from the APG (or Rondelero Duelist from the Inner Sea Primer) and you're good to go. Take the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait to replace Skill Focus with an interesting weapon like a falcata or bastard sword.
So, can you say some more about the game structure to inform build recommendations?
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So, can you say some more about the game structure to inform build recommendations?
That's actually a very good question! The campaign tends to be split pretty evenly between Social/Investigation type stuff and Combat, with occasional forays into dungeon-delving. A lot of stuff happens outdoors. The majority of the antagonists up to this point have been humanoid, and I can see that continuing.
If it helps, the party already has a wizard who's prefences run to blasting and utility spells, a barbarian who's designed to give and receive massive amounts of damage (typical greataxe wielder), a Bard geared radically towards diplomacy and knowledge skills who is not very good in combat situations at all, a ranger bound for the Arcane Archer prestige class, and a cleric who normally does healing and buffing (but who is frequently absent from the game).
It sounds to me like a smart "trick" fighter could work well, then. With the extra Int he can pop in a few skills that others might not have, and with the combat tricks he can do support to the barbarian for melee. So long as this player can work within the mindset that combat is a team effort and total damage dealt isn't the be-all, he could go around the field disarming and tripping folks to either give the barbarian time to focus on the big guy or else protect the other party members. I'll whip something up along these lines...
If you allow it, the skilled fighter variant from the campaign setting could be very useful tocover the skills. The two-weapon fighter variant could be nifty, especially once the mid-level abilities kick in. Without competitive strength, i'd want to focus on dpr and critical effect feats with kukris. Alternatively, grab agile maneuvers and scorpion whips and be the tripping disarming king.
So, can you say some more about the game structure to inform build recommendations?That's actually a very good question! The campaign tends to be split pretty evenly between Social/Investigation type stuff and Combat, with occasional forays into dungeon-delving. A lot of stuff happens outdoors. The majority of the antagonists up to this point have been humanoid, and I can see that continuing.
If it helps, the party already has a wizard who's prefences run to blasting and utility spells, a barbarian who's designed to give and receive massive amounts of damage (typical greataxe wielder), a Bard geared radically towards diplomacy and knowledge skills who is not very good in combat situations at all, a ranger bound for the Arcane Archer prestige class, and a cleric who normally does healing and buffing (but who is frequently absent from the game).
In this case, I suppose that you need int because skills are dramatically important.
Just use the chain fighter above if TWF is not mandatory, otherwise take the kukri fighter above (use shortswords if more of your tastes), and use an array like this: 14/17/12/14/10/7 or 12/17/14/14/10/7 (Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha).
Drop Double slice, Weapon Finesse (And power attack if you don't put the level 4 stat increase in Str).
Take Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Then, from here to 20, take the combat expertise line or TWF line or weapon specialization line.
Assing most point to acrobatics + another Dex based skill, and other to 1-2 social skills.
Since most enemies are humanoid, you should not need to up all numbers to eleven to have a functional and fun TWFighter able to full attack to death an enemy or trip, blind, or reposition near the raging barbarian another enemy after a move.
Some general thoughts to get you going. You can mix this up in a lot of ways to match the preferences of the player. Knowing the options out there shoudl, hopefully, get him going on a theme...
Race: Half-Elf
Select Ancestral Arms as an alternate racial trait (replacing Adaptability) to gain Exotic Weapon Proficiency in a weapon of choice.
Alternately take Water Child (replacing both Adaptability and Multi-talented since it sounds like he’ll be single class) to gain some background traits appropriate for a sailor (bonus on Swim checks, take 10 while swimming, and can take Aquan as a bonus language).
Class: Fighter
Take the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype to focus on tricks with two weapons or the Rondelero Duelist (if allowed; OGC can be found at The Archives of Nethys if no one has the Inner Sea Primer) to do a weapon-and-buckler combo).
The Rondelero Duelist with the Water Child trait has a lot of flavor and possible connections to sailing, so going that route you could do the following:
Str 14 (+1 at 4th level)
Dex 17 (+2 from Half-Elf)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 10
Feats
Level 1 Feat - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (falcata)
Fighter 1 Bonus Feat - Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter 2 Bonus Feat - Weapon Focus (falcata)
Level 3 Feat – Taldan Duelist (assuming it works like the 3.5 version)
Fighter 4 Bonus Feat - Improved Shield Bash
Level 5 Feat - Shield Focus
Suggested Feats for later: Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise, Improved/Greater Disarm, Improved/Greater Trip, (you could mix these in earlier to shift to a more “tricky” build), Shield Slam, Shield Master, Greater Shield Focus, Weapon Specialization (falcata). This all depends on if the player wants to focus on whacking stuff, maximizing his buckler, or doing tricks.
Skills
- Acrobatics (for balance on a ship) 5 ranks - +10 (+8 when jumping) total with +3 Dex and +2 from Taldan Duelist
- Climb (for rigging) 5 ranks - +10 total with +3 Class Skill, and +2 Str
- Knowledge (engineering) 5 ranks - +10 total with +3 Class Skill, and +2 Int
- Swim 5 ranks - +14 total with +3 Class Skill, +4 racial, and +2 Str
Languages: Common, Elven, Aquan and one other
Class Features gained:
- Buckler Bash (Ex): At 2nd level, a rondelero can perform a shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical modifier as for a light shield). This ability replaces bravery.
- Buckler Catch (Ex): At 3rd level, a rondelero can catch his opponent’s weapon between his buckler and his forearm, effectively wedging the hafts of polearms and hammers or the flats of blades. This functions as a disarm combat maneuver, and the rondelero gains a +4 bonus on the roll. If the rondelero’s attack fails by 10 or more, he suffers a –2 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn. This ability replaces armor training 1.
- Strong Swing (Ex): At 5th level, a rondelero gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand. These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th. With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack. This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
There you go. A flavorful 2-weapon fighter that should be fairly fun to play and effective in general combat. Heck, I may have to make this my next PFS character!
The last time he played D&D was 2nd edition. He's still learning the pathfinder rules. I've never been very happy with my own attempts to build dex-based fighters, so I don't feel like I've been advising him well. Can I get some ideas? Here are the parameters:
-He wants to play a Half-elf (not sure why)
-15 point buy for stats
-The character is a sailor of some kind
-Pretty sure he wants to stick with being a fighter
-He's joining the party at level 5
-Suggestions on what magical gear he might need are welcome, but I'm much more concerned with ability score, feat, and skill suggestions.
-Use Core Rulebook, along with feats, mundane gear, and class archetypes from the APG.Any help is greatly appreciated.
Is he going TWF or archery?
The last time he played D&D was 2nd edition. He's still learning the pathfinder rules. I've never been very happy with my own attempts to build dex-based fighters, so I don't feel like I've been advising him well. Can I get some ideas? Here are the parameters:
-He wants to play a Half-elf (not sure why)
-15 point buy for stats
-The character is a sailor of some kind
-Pretty sure he wants to stick with being a fighter
-He's joining the party at level 5
-Suggestions on what magical gear he might need are welcome, but I'm much more concerned with ability score, feat, and skill suggestions.
-Use Core Rulebook, along with feats, mundane gear, and class archetypes from the APG.Any help is greatly appreciated.
It's not going to work on a 15 point by. He wants
-A fighting type instead of a caster (strike one)
-A dex based melee character which splits the to hit and to damage stat (strike two)
-wants to two weapon fight (strike three)
-wants to be a single classed half elf (strike four)
Something has to give. Its like he's choosing the worst possible options short of trying to use a crossbow. If anyone in your group can optimize worth a damn they're going to make him feel useless. If people in your group are picking their builds out of a hat at least 2 of them should likewise come up with something better. Two weapon fighting was awesome in 2e, it fell a long, LONG way.
Eh, the concept can work, but you have to compromise a few things.
Making the character "Dex-based" is really going against the spirit of the TWF fighter. "Dex-based" means (to me at least) "pump Dex like crazy and benefit as much as possible from the Dex". That implies things like Weapon Finesse. You *REALLY* want to use the double weapons -- which don't use Weapon Finesse. They deal significantly more damage and they have the benefit of being flexible with Power Attack. Sometimes you need to deal a big hit with holding a weapon in two hands. Also, you need to apply all your feats to one specific weapon. Splitting them among different weapons is a bad idea.
That said, the build does need 19 Dex by around level 11. I like having that score without enhancement bonuses (so an anti-magic field won't kill your ability to use feats), so you have to plan ahead if you want the Dex that high. Given the elite array:
14
17 (base 15) (+2 racial)
13
10
12
8
This is a fine start. By level 8 you'll have the Dex you'll need. You can pump Str with stat boosters in the meantime. At 12/16/20 you can pump Str. This has less Str than a regular two-hander build, but it's still very competitive. With more point buy points (like 20 or 25), just pump Str as much as possible while keeping starting Dex at no more than 16/17.
Pick a double weapon. Half-orcs get one automatically. Half-elves can get one with the Ancestral Arms racial trait in the APG (which IMO makes half-elves the best TWF fighter). Humans can use a bonus feat to get one. Dwarves/gnomes get one too.
You'll want to get Power Attack as quickly as possible -- at first level if available.
Basically, if something is really hard to hit, ignore the TWF option and hit it with the double weapon being held with both hands. This is particularly common at early levels. If something is moderately difficult to hit, TWF. If you can get away with it against a low AC target, TWF + PA. More often than not, with flanking + buffs + debuffs on the enemy you'll be able to TWF + PA quite a bit. Don't get Double Slice until you get at least +2 damage with the off-hand attacks (16+ Str). It's really underwhelming until a bit later on.
Make sure you use your "useless" Dex as much as possible. Thank you armor training! Always upgrade your armor so you have the heaviest armor available using your full Dex modifier. Things like Two-Weapon Defense seem underwhelming, but they're actually not that terrible. As long as you focus on AC beyond weapons/stat-boosters, every little bit helps.
As for weapon enhancements, TWF fighters have way more hit than a comparable rogue at the same level. With rogues, I'd want just flat enhancement bonuses to optimize hit. With TWF fighters, an energy weapon mod isn't that bad. I'd do a 50/50 spread of damaging weapon mods and enhancement bonuses.
Half-Elf Fighter 5
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 10
Feats
1- Weapon Focus (short sword)
1- Weapon Finesse
2- Power Attack (always activated)
3- Two-Weapon Fighting
4- Weapon Specialization (short sword)
5- Two-Weapon Defense or Iron Will
Good AC, good bonus on attack rolls and decent damage input. That's how I would make it.
I threw this together for fun. . .
Half-elf fighter 5 using Ancestral Arms instead of Adaptability for two-bladed sword
16 (5) (+2 booster)
18 (7) (+2 race) (+1 level)
13 (3)
10
12 (2)
8 (-2)
Feats
1 - Weapon Focus + Two Weapon Fighting
2 - Power Attack
3 - Two Weapon Defense
4 - Weapon Specialization
5 - Double Slice
Skills:
+9 swim 5 ranks + 3 class + 3 Str - 2 ACP
+9 climb 5 ranks + 3 class + 3 Str - 2 ACP
Gear:
+1/+1 two-bladed sword 4400 gp
+2 str belt 4000 gp
+1 breastplate 1350 gp
750 other mw weapons/gear
Class:
Bravery +1 (+1 Will vs fear)
Armor Training 1 (normal speed in armor, -1 ACP, +1 to max Dex bonus of armor)
Weapon Training 1 - heavy blades (+1 attack/+1 damage)
Favored Class: Fighter (1 hp/level)
BAB: +5
Single Attack: +11 (5 BAB + 3 Str + 1 enhance + 1 WF + 1 Train) +1 two-bladed sword (in two hands)
Single Damage: 1d8 + 9 (5 Str + 2 WSpec + 1 Weapon + 1 Train)
Single Attack w/ Power Attack: +9 (1d8 + 15)
Full Attack +9/+9 +1 two-bladed sword (1d8 + 7)
Full Attack w/ Power Attack: +7(1d8 + 11)/+7 (1d8 + 9)
AC 22 (10 + 6 BP + 4 Dex + 1 enhance + 1 TWD) 14 touch, 18 ff
42 hp (10 1st fighter + 22 fighter levels + 5 Con + 5 Favored)
init: +4
saves:
+5 F (4 class + 1 Con)
+5 R (1 class + 4 Dex)
+2 W (1 class + 1 Wis) (+1 morale vs fear) (+2 vs enchantments) (immune to sleep)
Just doing a comparison against CR 6 monsters, he holds up pretty well. Looks like his hits will hit half the time, but enemy hits will usually happen half the time as well. With a flank and some party support (haste, heroism, align weapon, etc.) he'll do ok against bigger bad guys. Against weaker foes Power Attack will be quite lethal.
Half-Elf Fighter 5
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 10Feats
1- Weapon Focus (short sword)
1- Weapon Finesse
2- Power Attack (always activated)
3- Two-Weapon Fighting
4- Weapon Specialization (short sword)
5- Two-Weapon Defense or Iron WillGood AC, good bonus on attack rolls and decent damage input. That's how I would make it.
This is the build i was thinking of, and i think it illustrates why its a bad idea. Your damage on a full attack (assuming you actually get one) would be 2d6+3 (strength on 1 half strength on the other) +2 ( 2 +1 weapons)+4 (specialization X2) for 2d6+9
A two handed fighter that switches strength and dex would do 2d6+6. (or +8 with weapon specialization) without a -2 to attack... meaning that a two handed fighter is doing MORE damage per round without spending feats on two weapon fighting or weapon finesse. Once you factor in the extra damage from the two extra feats, two weapon fighting is being blown out of the water.
10,500 gp
Half-Elf Fighter 5
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 11
Wis 10
Cha 10Feats
1- Weapon Focus (short sword)
1- Weapon Finesse
2- Power Attack (always activated)
3- Two-Weapon Fighting
4- Weapon Specialization (short sword)
5- Two-Weapon Defense or Iron WillGood AC, good bonus on attack rolls and decent damage input. That's how I would make it.
This is the build i was thinking of, and i think it illustrates why its a bad idea. Your damage on a full attack (assuming you actually get one) would be 2d6+3 (strength on 1 half strength on the other) +2 ( 2 +1 weapons)+4 (specialization X2) for 2d6+9
A two handed fighter that switches strength and dex would do 2d6+6. (or +8 with weapon specialization) without a -2 to attack... meaning that a two handed fighter is doing MORE damage per round without spending feats on two weapon fighting or weapon finesse. Once you factor in the extra damage from the two extra feats, two weapon fighting is being blown out of the water.
10,500 gp
I must agree. Only the teamwork feat that gives you +1d6 precision damage (or some rogue levels) could save this built.
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Thanks for all your help. This has given me a lot of ideas and it'll provide some ammunition when I try to convince the fellow to maybe adjust his concept a bit.
Judging by your group composition you could actually use a rogue. I know he mentioned that he wanted to be a fighter, but if he were to go with a rogue he could actually be viable as a half-elf TWFer (using pretty much the same build from above).
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Judging by your group composition you could actually use a rogue. I know he mentioned that he wanted to be a fighter, but if he were to go with a rogue he could actually be viable as a half-elf TWFer (using pretty much the same build from above).
True enough, but I hate telling players what they can and can't play, and prefer to try making whatever concept they like work.
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Judging by your group composition you could actually use a rogue. I know he mentioned that he wanted to be a fighter, but if he were to go with a rogue he could actually be viable as a half-elf TWFer (using pretty much the same build from above).True enough, but I hate telling players what they can and can't play, and prefer to try making whatever concept they like work.
You're not making him play a rogue, you're just advising him of a better option in hopes that he wants to have a chance to shine. Also, have him look at the swashbuckler variant rogue in the APG.
You take weapon finesse with your first rogue talent, weapon focus with your second, and your next two rogue talents are straight off the fighter bonus feat selection. All of a sudden you're practically a fighter that deals more damage and has more skills (though you have less attack bonus, hit points, and have to wait a tad longer for improved critical/two weapon rend). You stop choosing fighter feats at 10th level, but advanced rogue talents are better than fighter bonus feats in most cases anyway.
I'd just let him do it. There has already been posted some good build suggestions. Personally I would encourage a decent int build, to give him the skill points for out of combat utility.
Yes, it is possible to go on and on about the fact that he is not going to be as efficient as a strenght-based fighter. It not a big deal. If he would like to play a dex-build, that is much more important than whether or not he reached the highest possible DPR.
You should warn him that he is not going to be the most damage dealing character in the game, but if he don't mind that, then there is no reason to make a rogue or str-fighter, eventhough they are "better".
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If he's got the patience, Str is better than Dex as your attack stat even for TWF - if he can hold out that long. A crit-heavy build using Two-Weapon Warrior for dual scimitars (can be refluffed as cutlasses) that uses Strength and Dual Slice can really drive some serious hurt at levels 11+, when the crit feats start kicking in.
But levels 1-10 are a long, long slog...
As others have said above, fighter/rogue is probably the best choice. He won't need much int then, since he gains skills from rogue levels, he gains a damage boost from sneak attacks, and still have proficiencies of a fighter.
I'd start out as either Fighter 3/Rogue 2 for Armor Training (Full speed breastplate) or F2/R3 for +2d6 sneak attack. Then I'd go 3/3 and after that, everything into rogue. Remember that only the first armor training is needed to use Mithril Fullplate in full speed.
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As others have said above, fighter/rogue is probably the best choice. He won't need much int then, since he gains skills from rogue levels, he gains a damage boost from sneak attacks, and still have proficiencies of a fighter.
I'd start out as either Fighter 3/Rogue 2 for Armor Training (Full speed breastplate) or F2/R3 for +2d6 sneak attack. Then I'd go 3/3 and after that, everything into rogue. Remember that only the first armor training is needed to use Mithril Fullplate in full speed.
There's no reason to take three levels of fighter unless you're going for weapon specialization. Evasion can't be used in medium or heavy armor, so the best armor to wear is a mithril breastplate anyway if you have fighter levels (adamantine chain shirt if not).
Thanks for all your help. This has given me a lot of ideas and it'll provide some ammunition when I try to convince the fellow to maybe adjust his concept a bit.
I don't really think you need to do this. Your party and game are already set up such that a non-optimal fighter will be just fine. I say this because you already have a non-optimal party (blaster/utility wizard instead of a battlefield controller, no other full casters focused on combat, a bard that is not good in combat, a ranger/arcane archer when "fighters are better archers and arcane archers are terrible"). If this party is doing fine in your game, a TWF Fighter with some tricks will do just fine. Characters do not have to be optimized for combat to be fun, and a fighter that doesn't deal maximum damage every round is just fine.
Pitch the ideas to him and let the player decide, then roll with it in the game. If the concept fits what he wants to play, and so the player is more interested in the game, then you'll get more involvement. And that results in "winning" for an RPG--when the player likes the game enough to be involved then the DM has done his job.
Adamant's swashbuckler from the Tome of Secrets was definitely my favorite class from that book and one of the first I'd like to get into my automated character sheet (see my profile) after get the APG done...
At $1.99 it's a great buy as a PDF, but it does break the OP restriction on only using Core + APG.
If points are limited, (15)
Go with a race that gets TWO plus 2's and a negative 2.
It will work out better.
ELF
S 15
D 18
c 8
I 10
w 8
ch 12
take str to 16 at level 4
the other way to go is skirmisher ranger, which will get the two weapon fighting without the dex.
1/2 elf
Str 17 (+2 race, +1 at level 4)
dex 14
con 13
int 10
wis 10
chr 12
the beauty here is no dump stats and you can still get a little boost to flash and flair chr based skills and some intimidate, which is very swash bucklery
you could take the 13 in int instead of con to get combat expertise and some skill points.