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Here are my thoughts. I have no problem with the Ronin's challenge other than it relies on a specific class feature to work. What about expanding it to include anyone who attempts to demoralize the Ronin using intimidate? That way the Ronin has slightly more of chance to encounter a tactic he is especially suited to answer.
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the ability package i am talking about is the one you get from your order.
the ronin has no wait time for thier order, while the other orders have a month or few of waiting time attached.
i don't beleive that just because they don't have to wait for thier order that they should have such situational abilities.
i understand that Masashi was in a setting full of samurai, but that is just a really favorable circumstance. it's like a ranger only having to face thier favored enemies and nothing else. a situation to be decided by the DM. in Masashi's example, his "Player" had a very generous "DM" in metaphorical terms.
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Here are my thoughts. I have no problem with the Ronin's challenge other than it relies on a specific class feature to work. What about expanding it to include anyone who attempts to demoralize the Ronin using intimidate? That way the Ronin has slightly more of chance to encounter a tactic he is especially suited to answer.
also sounds like a good idea.
and we could also add rules for a duel of wills.
in other words, Samurai Staredown.
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How about this:
Whenever a ronin is the target of a melee or ranged attack, and he issues
a challenge against that character in return, the ronin receives
either a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls made against the
target of his challenge or a +1 dodge bonus to his AC
against attacks made by the target of his challenge. These bonuses
increase by +1 for every four class levels the samurai possesses.
It is still situational, less powerful, more fluid, and a response to the ronin's personal honor.
yknow, I think Ive gotten used to the whole ronin challenge thing. It falls into 'good enough' for me without being spectacular. If there was more of a way to widen the chances for it to come into play (inquisitor judegment, smite etc) i think id be happy.
But at the same time it cant be so good, everyone would be a ronin and no samurai.
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I don't see why people are so keen on reactive abilities. They're straight up not as good. Though I have to say that something as basic as being attacked probably comes up frequently enough to be viable.
On further reflection Order Challenges, so far, have been about giving the cavalier a preferred tactic to use in battle. For some its "while on a horse", or others "while defending a comrade", etc.
What if the Ronin's challenge was "when outnumbered 2-1", as they don't have a cohort of warriors to aid him in his struggles. It could be a bonus Dodge AC, to compensate for being outnumbered. To me it conjures moments of when a lone ronin is surrounded by enemies and then deftly takes them all on at once, such as in Zatoichi movies or Lone Wolf and Cub.
What if the Ronin's challenge was "when outnumbered 2-1", as they don't have a cohort of warriors to aid him in his struggles. It could be a bonus Dodge AC, to compensate for being outnumbered. To me it conjures moments of when a lone ronin is surrounded by enemies and then deftly takes them all on at once, such as in Zatoichi movies or Lone Wolf and Cub.
I actually really like this idea, make it suited for when you are outnumbered. It's something that, while situational, there's actually a decent chance of the situation arising.
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Hey there all,
Since Ronin often seem to get into fights with other samurai it made sense for them to have a power to use against each other.
Thoughts?
I thought I was clear. The ability is trash. It reads: don't write this down you will never use it.
It says: Don't play a ronin in PFS.
Its just very very bad. Yes you still challenge for bonus damage, but thats what every samurai does.
*sigh*
Usually I ignore this type of post, but...
In the right setting the ability is not "trash". The Samurai isn't necessarily intended to be the odd class character wondering the western world. I think he's designed for an Asian themed setting (Tian Xia or whatever Japan themed setting you have) where there are large numbers of Samurai. The Ronin was, for a variety of reasons, an outcast in the feudal setting. Local samurai often challenged them or tried to run them out of their lord's domain. As for being a Ronin, nobody wanted to be one. It's the dumping ground for dishonored Samurai or Samurai who have through some chance become lordless. Vagabonds without feudal ties or position.
Also I dispute that ronin necessarily get in fights with other samurai/cavaliers. In L5R to name one setting, most samurai don't even consider ronin to be worthy of a duel and they often find themselves defending peasants from monsters that the haughty clan samurai are too busy feuding to deal with.
You're disputing it based on another game? And what other settings? Historically, Ronin tended to make the local Samurai nervous and uncertain. Nervous Samurai tend to want to deal with the issue. Dueling was often the result. The Ronin were often called on to deal with things in areas because the Samurai with feudal duties were off at war or on their masters business.
What every other cavalier/ronin gets is an active ability that they control how to use somewhat akin to a personal bardsong. What ronins get is countersong. Which while okay in the once in a campaign time it comes up, is not something that they get to control how to use.It should be an active ability to be on par with other orders. This is not an NPC order. This is not an order that is defined to be worse than other samurai, though it currently is.
What the Ronin have is an ability well suited to their status, which is not desirable by any means. If you don't want that status don't choose that order or don't get yourself put into that situation. So yes, it has been defined as undesirable / worse.
The Order of the Warrior is the typical Bushi of the Samurai class. He is respected, feared and firmly placed within the societies feudal order. The Ronin "Order" represents the outcast and wonderer. Suspect in the eyes of a rooted feudal society, his very presence upsetting the "natural order" of the society. His life a challenge to the society he moves through.
In short, well done Mr. Bulmahn. Nice to see the details taken care of.
Oh, and for pity's sake Trent, find some manners.
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What if the Ronin's challenge was "when outnumbered 2-1", as they don't have a cohort of warriors to aid him in his struggles. It could be a bonus Dodge AC, to compensate for being outnumbered. To me it conjures moments of when a lone ronin is surrounded by enemies and then deftly takes them all on at once, such as in Zatoichi movies or Lone Wolf and Cub.
I like this idea and agree that it does fit the modern views of ronin. I am concerned that it doesn't actually happen that frequently in the Pathfinder system. Perhaps "if there were more enemies than allies within 30ft..." (number chosen quasi-randomly).
In the right setting the ability is not "trash". The Samurai isn't necessarily intended to be the odd class character wondering the western world. I think he's designed for an Asian themed setting (Tian Xia or whatever Japan themed setting you have) where there are large numbers of Samurai. The Ronin was, for a variety of reasons, an outcast in the feudal setting. Local samurai often challenged them or tried to run them out of their lord's domain. As for being a Ronin, nobody wanted to be one. It's the dumping ground for dishonored Samurai or Samurai who have through some chance become lordless. Vagabonds without feudal ties or position.
All that came out of the source material for Tian Xia? Wow, I gota pick up that book. Oh wait. You actually didn't cite any material so I'm forced to assume that you're just making things up.
(Looking at the material that actually exists, I'd hazard that Tian Xia is actually more Chinese and Mongol flavored than Japanese flavored. Though the islands mentioned may have a more appropriate feel. I'd further guess that the whole continent isn't overrun with samurai. And even then they may not be the majority of PC encounters what with oni, nezumi, naga, and of course dragons running around a fantasy Asian setting.)
You're disputing it based on another game? And what other settings? Historically,...
Yes. Yes I am. I consider a game setting where I might actually use the rules to be a more valid point of comparison than citation free 'common knowledge' about ancient Japan where no one I know actually plays any games.
Pop culture is where games live and to ignore the cool factor of being a ronin, a wandering and outcast warrior* (which sounds a lot like a PC to me) is foolish. People will want to play the class. They should not be gimped due to historic bias.And Mr. Hubbell, I don't care for your tone.
All that came out of the source material for Tian Xia? Wow, I gota pick up that book. Oh wait. You actually didn't cite any material so I'm forced to assume that you're just making things up.
No, because Tian Xia has yet to be released as you noted. Just history. Try "Secrets of the Samurai" by Ratti and Westbrook it's an excellent survey of the Japanese martial arts from their origins to recent times (try page 123 on Samurai vs. Ronin challenges, it's strait to the point and the type of thing I think inspired the Ronin's ability). There are several histories of the Samurai and the feudal military period in Japan by S.R.Turnbull as well. Good reads and generally available. Now, as for Golarion, based on Paizo's release of a Samurai and a Ninja class popping up in finalized form in roughly the same time frame as their Tian Xia sourcebook, I'd assume that they may just show up in the Asian themed part of Golarion. Call it an educated guess.
(Looking at the material that actually exists, I'd hazard that Tian Xia is actually more Chinese and Mongol flavored than Japanese flavored. Though the islands mentioned may have a more appropriate feel. I'd further guess that the whole continent isn't overrun with samurai. And even then they may not be the majority of PC encounters what with oni, nezumi, naga, and of course dragons running around a fantasy Asian setting.)
I'm sure it includes the range of east Asian cultures / themes. I'd be surprised if it didn't. The extent of their range is anybody's guess, well I'm sure Paizo knows...
You're disputing it based on another game? And what
...
Yes. Yes I am. I consider a game setting where I might actually use the rules to be a more valid point of comparison than citation free 'common knowledge' about ancient Japan where no one I know actually plays any games.
Pop culture is where games live and to ignore the cool factor of being a ronin, a wandering and outcast warrior* (which sounds a lot like a PC to me) is foolish. People will want to play the class. They should not be gimped due to historic bias.
I suspect it's designed to be used in their game and setting. Other games might embody different views. In this instance I don't think either of us has more than half a leg to stand on. We don't know what the class will finally embody, or much about their upcoming setting foir that matter. The "cool factor" is still with the Ronin. Why wouldn't it be? It's about being the masterless mysterious figure... someone who upsets the settled members of society and represents an unknown factor.
And Mr. Hubbell, I don't care for your tone.
Not surprising given it was in response to yours. Being confrontational may get you noticed, but it also tends to focus more attention on your tone than your points. They do read these posts.
Anyway, I should apologise for the tone of my post (and maybe for this one as well). It was annoying I agree.
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The "cool factor" is still with the Ronin. Why wouldn't it be? It's about being the masterless mysterious figure... someone who upsets the settled members of society and represents an unknown factor.
So you agree that its a good type of character to play?
I'd even suggest that a ronin wandering about makes more sense in the Inner Sea region than an Order of the Warrior samurai.
I think the class needs to not be mechanically disadvantaged. The fringe case where a samurai who abandons his previous order gets to jump strait into ronin has been highlighted as a reason to leave ronin broken and unable to compete.
I think that a ronin order should not be held back by outlier cases like that. I believe that completing the level without any order bonuses at all is sufficiently punishing to those few samurai (and cavaliers) who make such poor choices as to leave their order. That adjustment period before a ronin learns to 'stand on his own' even makes sense thematically.
In conclusion my recommendations are:
A: make the ronin's challenge on par with other orders
B: remove the clause about samurai getting to switch to ronin for free
As another poster mentioned, I fully support that the Ronin's Challenge be for when he, or the party, is outnumbered. It's situational, but there's still a good chance of that situation triggering.
The "cool factor" is still with the Ronin. Why wouldn't it be? It's about being the masterless mysterious figure... someone who upsets the settled members of society and represents an unknown factor.
So you agree that its a good type of character to play?
I'd even suggest that a ronin wandering about makes more sense in the Inner Sea region than an Order of the Warrior samurai.
Yes, the Ronin is an excellent choice for the wondering PC Samurai and yes again, it does make much more sense -- especially outside of their homeland. The lack of feudal ties is a good reason to be an adventurer.
I think the class needs to not be mechanically disadvantaged. The fringe case where a samurai who abandons his previous order gets to jump strait into ronin has been highlighted as a reason to leave ronin broken and unable to compete.I think that a ronin order should not be held back by outlier cases like that. I believe that completing the level without any order bonuses at all is sufficiently punishing to those few samurai (and cavaliers) who make such poor choices as to leave their order. That adjustment period before a ronin learns to 'stand on his own' even makes sense thematically.
In conclusion my recommendations are:
A: make the ronin's challenge on par with other orders
B: remove the clause about samurai getting to switch to ronin for free
It's been highlighted because that's how it worked. You outlived your master, his feif was "disestablished, you were let go or you chose to leave. It was either unfortunate as a circumstance or unfathomable as a choice to the Japanese. Their problems with their more settled bretheren are a reflection of that. Given that their challenge extends to Cavaliers it's not as limiting as it could be. The reactive nature of the bonus makes it more situational, but not overwhelmingly inferior given the range of other class and order abilities. My opinion, of course, but look over everything else they get. That automatic natural 20 on any roll once a day for example is pretty nice.
My vote is for out numbered or fighting a higher CR.
Why not on 1v1 fights. of any kind.
And having anyone join the fight makes you lose the ability to challenge for X time.
Why not on 1v1 fights. of any kind.
And having anyone join the fight makes you lose the ability to challenge for X time.
Too similar to the other Order I'd say.
I do agree with the Ronin ability not being as great as the other orders. But I'm not sure if I like the Ronin ability playing against fighting other Samurai/Cavaliers. I do like the idea of the Ronin getting a bonus when heavily outnumbered, because (right now) I think that plays a bit more into them being alone in a class that practically everyone will have an order behind them. It also comes with an penalty because, with a lot more enemies, more creatures will be able to take advantage of your -2 to AC.
My thoughts come to...
Challenge: Whenever a ronin declares a challenge, he receives a +1 bonus on all melee damage rolls against all targets except the target of his challenge. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the samurai possesses.
This way, you get part of your samurai challenge bonus against every other opponent on the field. (I like to imagine the enemy leader sending out minions to attack while he commands from behind, the ronin challenges the leader as he cuts and fights his was through the minions until none are left and the target of his challenge to confront him)
That is less than what I was originally thinking. I was considering adding 1/2 samurai level to damage rolls, but that doesn't fit with the standard Orders that grant increases every four levels. I don't like attack bonuses (because that might mean you will challenge someone else so you would be more likely to hit your real target) or AC bonuses against the minions (because that negates the penalty of challenge). Maybe if it also gave the same bonus on damage on opportunity attacks (in the same theme that you cut down enemies as they are swarming around or past you). Or that may make it a bit too good (Edit: I'm now sort of thinking that it may be fine without adding anything to it). I still think that Ronin isn't something that you want to be and that the mechanics shouldn't overly reward this option.
Breifly, to a large extent I agree with Matt Trent and Pendagast, I feel that this power is underwhelming, and that there may be an issue of translation from Mr.Bulhmans veiw of how unsavory it is to be a samurai.
Longer notes include...
1. I'm going to assume that everyone understands or has just wiki'd up "Ronin" and/or tvtropes'd it. So you know about Miyamoto, 47 samurai graves, as well as Lone Wolf and cub/Ronin Jin from samurai warriors. So our ideas about Ronin, have equal traction since we all have the same sources. (if you are a strict historian, likely very little will appease you about a samurai in a fantasy setting).
2. I'm going to assume that it matters what we think and that a well presented case will have more traction that just saying "This suxx0rs!!! Fix now!". Though it is the internet and in a lot of ways thats totally expected.
3. That playing a Ronin, is actually supposed to be something that Jason and Co recognizes, as something that a lot of us really DO want to do, "because thats how people role".
In anycase as is stated above the "Rule of Cool" is with the ronin, so you're going to find about 1/2 of the audience wanting to actually play a character in the vein of Miyamoto Musashi or some version of a selfstlyed tough who is a samurai only in that he's killing you with a katana(or other asian thing) and in his case "Bushido is the new dead parents" as a part of his angst/motivation.
If you're saying that being a samurai is strictly a better option than being a samurai and you want to mechanically represent that then well yeah you've basically shown (it's a don't ever use this) that the op is right and thats intentional and sad, because again there's a good portion of people who have the romaticized "masterless samurai" as being something awesome and that we totally want to play, but we won't because the designer punishes us for doing so.
Moreover, the samurai is likely going to used by a player in a NON eastern, setting. I mean I'm samurai the class but were still going to go dragon slaying in a party with a Cleric, Rogue, Mage. So storywise if you encounter a "Samurai/Ronin" in the main setting at all, then its likely a ronin (which makes even more sense if being a ronin in "samurailand" is distinctly a bad thing one thing you'd like to do instead of suicide would be stow away to a new land where there's less social ramification about it). This means that a Ronin is more likely to fight Monsters than other samurai, and also have more determination and freedom in thier fighting stlye which is needed because you've either have stopped fighting strictly humans. Futhermore its reasonable because some ronin (The ones we want to play based on miyamoto musashi) DON'T have access to formal schools, are fighting other samurai but will display an array of tactics that vary from Ronin to Ronin.
Pfew... That being said,there are two fair options for this. Instead of the challenge feature...
1. (Simple Answer)
Each Ronin gets a bonus feat, of any feat that they qualify for, this feat DOES NOT have to be a combat feat.
Why? Ronin are pickin this up as they go as I said now so you're going to get cool fights out of these dudes. Now I'd like to add "Choose one skill, this is now a class skill for the ronin", cause if I'm mistaken there that whole "Samurai are above doing X" thing, that social more may or may not apply to your runaway sword servant
and
2. Make a chart. (complex)
Make a chart of abiites that you can choose something from and you get that instead of the ever increasing samurai challenge power.
I say complex because it will actually require some thought, I think.
You could but any number of things on there... sneak attack, comes to mind, since it'd be such a slowly progressed thing 1d6 every 4 levels whathave you but ultimately it'd be a bout 6-8 things to chooes from, one of which would be gain a bonus feat. Ahh... brainstorm complete it could be like the special abilites of the rogue in 3.5 just choose from these options. etc.
TL;Dr, just give them a bonus feat and a choosen class skill instead of the challenge, let that represent the many varied things that the ronin learns following his personal path of bushido.
I dont mind playing a slightly gimped samurai just to play a ronin.
A ronin has replaced our normal cavalier (who got killed) in our Serpents skull campaign. The AP has other people from Tian Xia in it already, so it's not a far stretch.
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I'm currently playing a Hobgoblin Ronin in a game right now. He's so much fun XD Took bluff as a skill, got an Oodachi (large bastard sword), masterwork, and it's a blast. Yeah, his challenge isn't great, but he's saving it for the Warlord that got him exiled from his clan.
Also, I think we're all forgetting the important option of replacing the mount XD