I know this is an area where realism and playability clash, but there's really no way you could reload a black powder weapon in a full action, much less a standard action.
It generally took about a minute. I know that's no fun, but that's why pirates and highwaymen carried around four or six of them if they could, and the western menfolk fired off several rifles while the womenfolk behind the wagons reloaded for them.
I've seen estimates that the British in the Revolutionary War could fire four times per minute, but their weapons were more user-friendly than the older pieces.
AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures basically said, 1 round loading is playable, 1 minute loading is realistic. Go with whatever floats your galleon.
That is why I would have liked revolvers or old style carbines
They actually had pistols sorta like that way back. You turned the chamber yourself, with a big padded mitt. They were rather jankey and there was a good chance you'd blow yourself to hell.
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I know this is an area where realism and playability clash, but there's really no way you could reload a black powder weapon in a full action, much less a standard action.
It generally took about a minute. I know that's no fun, but that's why pirates and highwaymen carried around four or six of them if they could, and the western menfolk fired off several rifles while the womenfolk behind the wagons reloaded for them.
I've seen estimates that the British in the Revolutionary War could fire four times per minute, but their weapons were more user-friendly than the older pieces.
AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures basically said, 1 round loading is playable, 1 minute loading is realistic. Go with whatever floats your galleon.
And my players think that the stated reload times make it unplayable...
Hell I wouldnt even want to use a full round or standard to reload anyways so I would probably end up carrying 4-6 anyways. The damage seemed to be not worth the wait.
Now if we were talking Revolvers and carbines and such that had reloadable clips. We could be talking business... maybe..
For what it's worth, any firearm prior to what, the mid 1800s, just totally loses its rule of cool if you try to accurately simulate it. There's a place for fire-once-and-forget weapons, I suppose (which just makes guns better crossbows), but that's not something to build a character around.
As far as suspension of disbelief goes, I'm fine with these bizarro lightninglock style firearms the same way I am with the fact that a skilled/high-level character can eventually put a steady stream of arrows in the air. (Or, for that matter, light crossbow bolts)
I'm just hoping the full firearm rules actually have guns with a capacity over one (revolvers, carbines, whatever). A nice scattergun would be sweet, too. (and if my recollection of the 3.5 campaign setting is correct, that seems likely as well).
Maybe if we added lead poisoning to the bullet effects? After all that is a large chunk of lead to stuff into something.
Maybe if we added lead poisoning to the bullet effects? After all that is a large chunk of lead to stuff into something.
They don't actually stuff a bullet into the boo-boo. They're talking about using the hot gun barrel as a branding iron to cauterize the wound.
You wouldnt be aiming that katar gun down the sights, less you risk the recoil sending that metal into your face.
The pistols there are more of an "add an extra booming ouch to stabbity" device than an actual ranged weapon. Still...that's a lot of extra ouch. >_> <_<
This is daft. Firearms should be as realistic as bows!
That is, not in the slightest. It's all for playability and balance.
How about this axe gun?
Here are some more historical gun axes. Including a diagram of one like you suggest.
Just to get this thread a little bit back to the original topic...
I've seen estimates that the British in the Revolutionary War could fire four times per minute, but their weapons were more user-friendly than the older pieces.
Just to confirm, when firing black powder rifles with paper cartridges (using a horn easily increases this time 2 fold or more), I can get a shot off every 15-20 seconds in pristine weather & a on a solid surface (eg: I couldn't imagine reloading in combat while on a ship) with ~1.5 seconds of aiming. Very poor accuracy outside of ~3 meters. Older firearms predating flintlocks (a matchlock or wheel lock) would be even harder and take longer to reload and fire. I'd also like to note that if you're firing a black powder *anything*, after about a minute or two in little to no wind environments, you have very limited to no visibility or hearing. The weapons expunge a ridiculous amount of smoke and are very loud, which could be a good or a bad thing depending on the situation. I'd go as far as house-ruling the equivalent of a smoke bomb effect after a few shots in the same vicinity when inside enclosed areas. I don't know what I'd do for the deafening effect though...
In terms of game mechanics for PFRPG, I feel that the rate of fire is fine. There is some suspension of disbelief required when it comes to the fire-rate, as if you fired any slower, guns would have absolutely no appeal to most players. Also, misfiring makes this that much riskier and does add some realism to it all.
If people were to really nitpick about the gunslinger class's realism, there's all sorts of things that would take them out of a fight in a moment of combat in our world - any water effects (Aqueous Orb or even a little rain) would make all ammunition and weaponry useless unless it was stored in an air-tight or magical container. Assuming I didn't miss anything in the Playtest PDF, there are no rules regarding this - which is a good thing in terms of game mechanics. I wouldn't be against anything regarding firing while in water or fully submerged though... that's a bit too difficult to fathom. Maybe even introducing a type of 'water-proof' ammunition? This is Pathfinder after all.
I guess the big question is how far guns in PFRPG have evolved. I'd like to think it's some combination of early Revolutionary Era weaponry with little odds and ends before and after this time. After all, I'd love to see a high CR 'boss' with some experimental Gatling gun of sorts guarding his fortifications - with a high fire and misfire rate of course.
Considering Pathfinder is a world of magic, I'm glad they've already introduced the Reliable and Steadfast upgrades (although I personally believe Steadfast should be a +3 enhancement - at higher levels it's a must-have enhancement on a weapon in any prolonged combat, something I typically frown upon).
Hm... looks like I've gone off on a few tangents of my own. Whoops.
That is why I would have liked revolvers or old style carbines
i would love to see this because you are spending all your feats and such to get the feat chain so that once you hit 6th level you can take your extra attack. and theres really no way you can take TWF and dual wield pistols. and if you carry multiple thinking you can get away from this feat chain, one large combat and your having to pick up your guns.
if revolvers were added back in, then the class would be better due to that you can get all of your attacks. its no different then a ranger shooting his bow a number of times per round equal to his BAB's. the two weapon fighting style would make this really good, thus the damage on the guns would be fine, but the class might need to be reworked a bit.
but unfortunately, the guns rules arent for debate. but maybe Paizo will think differently. idk.
This is daft. Firearms should be as realistic as bows!
That is, not in the slightest. It's all for playability and balance.
I already know I'm going to be quoting this a billion times on these forums; may as well start now.
+1
That is why I would have liked revolvers or old style carbines
The campaign setting has revolvers, I have a character in my campaign that uses them and I allow the exploding dice, I really have not found it to be overpowered at all. Once in a while, he really blows something away, but it's rare
That is why I would have liked revolvers or old style carbinesThe campaign setting has revolvers, I have a character in my campaign that uses them and I allow the exploding dice, I really have not found it to be overpowered at all. Once in a while, he really blows something away, but it's rare
i heard somewhere that Paizo was not putting revolvers back into the new Inner Sea Guide but i may have heard wrong.
AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures basically said, 1 round loading is playable, 1 minute loading is realistic. Go with whatever floats your galleon.
I think this makes sense, because there's no way I'll allow Rapid Reload feat to make reloading a free action. It would make rapid reloading feat a more interesting option, going from full round action down to standard action, i.e allow you to reload and move. It fits more in the flavor of pistols to my mind. What I really don't want is to allow reloading and movement, but I'd be alright with continuing bardic performance and witches cackle, or similar effects I may have forgotten.
Just my thoughts, which may turn into my games house rules.
This is daft. Firearms should be as realistic as bows!
That is, not in the slightest. It's all for playability and balance.
+1
Pathfinder has us shooting a bow 5 times in 6 seconds without haste, this is simply not physically possible. I have done a lot of archery and known a lot of skilled archers, I can shoot about 6 arrows in 30 seconds, the best archer I ever knew could shoot 12 arrows in 30 seconds and put them all in about a 4 inch grouping at 30 yards. That's 1 arrow every 2.5 seconds or about 5 every two rounds which means Pathfinder is twice as fast as real life, if we can suspend disbelief to allow those kind of heroics with a bow, why not a gun?
This is daft. Firearms should be as realistic as bows!
That is, not in the slightest. It's all for playability and balance.
+1
Pathfinder has us shooting a bow 5 times in 6 seconds without haste, this is simply not physically possible. I have done a lot of archery and known a lot of skilled archers, I can shoot about 6 arrows in 30 seconds, the best archer I ever knew could shoot 12 arrows in 30 seconds and put them all in about a 4 inch grouping at 30 yards. That's 1 arrow every 2.5 seconds or about 5 every two rounds which means Pathfinder is twice as fast as real life, if we can suspend disbelief to allow those kind of heroics with a bow, why not a gun?
This is the best argument 'til now, IMHO.
This is daft. Firearms should be as realistic as bows!
That is, not in the slightest. It's all for playability and balance.
+1
Pathfinder has us shooting a bow 5 times in 6 seconds without haste, this is simply not physically possible. I have done a lot of archery and known a lot of skilled archers, I can shoot about 6 arrows in 30 seconds, the best archer I ever knew could shoot 12 arrows in 30 seconds and put them all in about a 4 inch grouping at 30 yards. That's 1 arrow every 2.5 seconds or about 5 every two rounds which means Pathfinder is twice as fast as real life, if we can suspend disbelief to allow those kind of heroics with a bow, why not a gun?
Do you see your players using guns as their primary style of combat under those rules?
I echo the "make them as realistic as bows" arguments. What's the point of going through th trouble of adding guns to your game if they're not going to be a viable option. Even as a range backup for melee characters they do poorly because of their very short range. A fighter is likely better off with a chackram.
Seriously people, this is a game where people fight hand to hand with friggan dragons, wizards warp time and space, archers fire quivers worth of arrows in seconds, and rogues and literally steal the pants right off your legs, but somehow rapidly reloading a firearm is beyond belief? Can we ppppppllllleeeeaassssee get over the 'fire arms have to be slow to reload' so we can get an actual playable weapon set? All the realism in the world doesnt matter no one uses them.