Creative Director
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.... Ah, now that fits much better with what's in the Bestiary -- additionally, it's something that that can readily be understood with out abstractions.
Agreed.
Next, we need distinct personalities like in Baator and the Abyss.
I'd like some strong female daemons; especially since demons and devils are mostly male or male-dominated.
Demons are actually female dominated, I'd say. At least as far as the leaders of the Abyss are concerned. The two most powerful demons are Lamashtu and Nocticula, after all.
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Demons are actually female dominated, I'd say. At least as far as the leaders of the Abyss are concerned. The two most powerful demons are Lamashtu and Nocticula, after all.
.... Ah, now that fits much better with what's in the Bestiary -- additionally, it's something that that can readily be understood with out abstractions.
Agreed.
Next, we need distinct personalities like in Baator and the Abyss.
I'd like some strong female daemons; especially since demons and devils are mostly male or male-dominated.
Nice change from 1st ed, when the only female fiend of note was Glasya who got the job through daddy's-girl nepotism (not that this sin is frowned upon in Hell) and besides this the only apparent job opening for female devils was "consort." Even Lilith herself couldn't break through the glass ceiling and was basically relegated to "coffee girl." I mean, look at the description way back when:
Lilith is consort to Moloch, viceroy of
the sixth plane of the Nine Hells. She is
held in high regard by many witches on
the Prime Material Plane, who hold (and
keep secret from others) the rituals for
summoning her thence. Lilith serves
Baalzebul, but her loyalty is not what it
used to be; she feels largely powerless in
the current regime, and resents being
moved here and there at Baalzebul's behest.
She often works with the legate
Tartach, who is of like mind. Lilith is
personally most attractive, and many devils
will do her small favors as a result.
Thanks for breaking that glass ceiling, James.
The follow up question is why are the Daemons, who want to see the universe destroyed entirely, aligned Neutral Evil, but Rovagug, who wants to see the universe destroyed entirely, is aligned Chaotic Evil.
It's not like wanting to destroy the universe is a function of you being either Chaotic, Neutral or Lawful. Being Evil is the only real prerequisite.
Now, your ethical alignment definitely colors why you want to destroy the world and how you want to do it.
The follow up question is why are the Daemons, who want to see the universe destroyed entirely, aligned Neutral Evil, but Rovagug, who wants to see the universe destroyed entirely, is aligned Chaotic Evil.
I think it's that the daemons just want to see everyone and everything die already, while Rovagug wants to amuse himself in the process.
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I see Rovagug as more pure chaos -- chaotically destroying for chaos's sake.
Rovagug seeks to destroy this prison cosmos, this flawed creation of petty puling rebel Gods who disobeyed their creator so that they could rule rather than be ruled. He will pull down these walls that keep us bound to a flawed cosmos, to die and be reborn and die again at the whims of poorly conceived laws and at the hands of lunatics and hypocrites. He is a liberator and a hero, maligned by the simpering lackeys of his enemies so often that their lies are taken as truths.
I have a pamphlet about it if you'd like.
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Creative Director
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The follow up question is why are the Daemons, who want to see the universe destroyed entirely, aligned Neutral Evil, but Rovagug, who wants to see the universe destroyed entirely, is aligned Chaotic Evil.
Because daemons don't WANT to destroy the universe. They're merely physical manifestations of way mortals can die who are out to hunt down and eat all mortal souls. They're not interested in destroying buildings; they're not even interested in excessive physical damage to bodies.
Demons, on the other hand, ARE interested in destroying buildings, bodies, items, mountains, and worlds. That's an oversimplification, of course, but the basic idea is that demons represent the combination of entropic destructive force (the chaotic part of their alignment) and the capacity of mortals to overindulge and/or sin (the evil part of their alignment).
Now, since Rovagug is neither a demon OR a daemon, but in fact is a deity (if he's ANYthing, he's a qlippoth or an alien who ascended to divinity aeons ago), the comparison between him and demons and daemons is mostly irrelevant except for alignment similarities.
Another way to look at daemons is that they personify ways that a mortal can die. Demons don't; they personify mortal sins.
What would devils be said to personify?
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Creative Director
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Another way to look at daemons is that they personify ways that a mortal can die. Demons don't; they personify mortal sins.What would devils be said to personify?
Devils personify heresy/treason/betrayal. The first heretic was also the first devil, more or less (Asmodeus).
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Nice change from 1st ed, when the only female fiend of note ...
I would not say that, there were after all, The Queen of Chaos, Zuggtmoy and that little girl Lolth, all stirring up trouble in the playground.
And while not a fiend herself, Iggwilv sired a few of her own.
Also, Tiamat was Queen of evil dragons and ruled from the first layer of Hell. While not a fiend again, the devils gave her the very key to their doorstep.
Nice job quoting Dragon 76 though, easily in my top 10 Dragon Magazines particularly because of that article.
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Devils personify heresy/treason/betrayal. The first heretic was also the first devil, more or less (Asmodeus).Another way to look at daemons is that they personify ways that a mortal can die. Demons don't; they personify mortal sins.What would devils be said to personify?
I was always taught and led to believe that in doctrine at least, the first sin was pride.
Pride led to the fall, and heresy/treason et al all followed in its wake.
The throne of Hell in the lowest Pit on which the archdevil sits on is fashioned from his very pride.
The way I generally do it is:
Devils want to corrupt: they want to make you over into their image. They're quite willing to plan heavily, or spend lots of time talking with you, as long as they keep you sliding down the slow path towards their reality. An erinyes wants you to have sex with her because it breaks your vows to your wife and/or makes you want more of her. It's about controlling you.
Demons want to rampage: they care about doing their own thing, and they don't really care about you unless you get in their way, or their own thing involves something you are or want. A succubus just wants Mad Passionate Sex to gratify her own urges. The fact that you die in the process is just a minor inconvenience because there are always more victims later, or maybe it's just part of the kick. It's about her needs.
Daemons just want to kill you. They may not be able to get your soul (it flies off into the hands of whichever god it goes to, barring extreme action on the daemon's part), but they want life to end. A sex daemon wants to have sex with you so it can transmit a lethal STD to you, your wife, and everyone she's sleeping with. It's all about death.
Wow thanks for the responses! Especially one from ol' JJ! Good to see this cleared up!
Very interesting....
Corollary questions....
What is the deal with soul destruction in PF. It is discussed a lot in Bestiary 2 in the daemon section. Is that annihilation of the petitioner?
Also, if a mortal is killed on a lower plane, is their soul trapped on that plane?
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If a mortal is killed on a lower plane, is their soul trapped on that plane?
I love running or playing adventures where this question (and its answer/ implications/ ramifications) is key.
As far as I know there has not been an official published answer that is LAW.
. . . . For me, when I run Monte Cook's greatest work, A Paladin in Hell (or something like it), I make this a big part of the adventure.
In it, the PCs are trying to rescue the NPC before he's killed in Hell so it doesn't become an issue BUT, if the PCs don't succeed they have "a certain, nebulous amount of time" to make a different kind of rescue attempt -- one for the soul that is much more like going to court and arguing to a Judge (Pit Fiend, Paelyrion, whatever) that the Soul must be allowed to be freed.
Of course, since gaming a court scene is hard to make really fun, I have to play with it a bit and shorten it up.
Also, though I've never had it come up, I would make it much easier to rescue a "Strongly Good" Soul from the Abyss -- cuz of far less Red Tape to cut through, but much harder to rescue a "relatively good" Soul from the Abyss cuz of all the Chaos and brute force.
And the opposite with the 9 Hells: "strongly Good Aligned" is harder cuz all the Red Tape makes it harder to get to court "on time."
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I would like to actually expand the question a bit. Why? Nobody is evil or destructive for no reason. I come as a psychologist and I must admit that i am struggling as a storyteller to explain things by just saying the want your body, mind and soul. There must a reason that pushes you to do it.
I can undestand the soul taking as a source of power or the fact that devils want you as a soldier/minion to their army once you die, but the whole destruction for destroction's sake makes zero sense.
Also we tend to talk about "Devils" or "Demons" as a population and not as individuals. When you make a pact with a devil are you becoming subservient to that daemon specificallly?
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Holy thread necro!
You have to remember about all of these extraplanar creatures is that they aren't humans (or other mortals), with their panopoly of complicated motivations and personal needs and desires. Rather, they are archetypes of pure concepts, modified slightly by individual personality.
Daemons seek death and destruction for the same reason that humans breathe and pump their blood. It's just part of what they are. If they changed, and weren't like that any more, their physical form would change as well -- they'd turn into some other sort of outsider. (Hence, redeemed angels, etc.)
Somewhere early on in the new First World campaign setting book there's a mention of this; it has to do with why the gods created the Prime Material plane in the first place. They wanted mortals with more subtle motivations, that acted for reasons that were other than expressing the ineffable nature of a form of universal truth.
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Heck of a thread necro, but it's a good thread to necro. I enjoyed rereading it.
Keep in mind a few things about the planes themselves -
1) An outer plane represents an impossibly vast number of mortal souls of like alignment that merged together into a single entity, and which additional mortal souls continue to merge into. (Essentially, the normal course of things is for souls to attain Nirvana with their alignment appropriate plane.)
2) Yes, entity. While, with a few really stand-out exceptions (like Mephistopheles, the 8th layer of Hell made flesh), the planes are nearly impossible to meaningfully communicate with, but they are conscious and intelligent.
3) An exemplar, like a demon, daemon, or devil, is a soul who has been invested in power from its plane instead of unifying with it.
4) Thus, every archon is an extension of Heaven, every protean an extension of the Maelstrom, and every daemon an extension of Abaddon.
5) And so exemplars are hardwired into behaviors that represent their sponsor planes. You could think of them as extremely sophisticated AIs running programs written by the planes.
6) And occasionally there are glitches in the software, and so an exemplar is "corrupted" or "redeemed" and claimed by a new sponsor plane. And the various exemplar races do devote quite a bit of effort into trying to induce glitches in each other.
7) So keep in mind for the most part that most exemplars don't have free will; they only have the illusion of it. Actually having it is the purview of mortals, and part of why mortals are such a big deal.
8) And so ultimately, the answer for "why do all daemons try to destroy souls" is "Because Abaddon itself seeks oblivion, and the daemons, knowingly or not, carry out its will."
Heck of a thread necro, but it's a good thread to necro. I enjoyed rereading it.
Keep in mind a few things about the planes themselves -
1) An outer plane represents an impossibly vast number of mortal souls of like alignment that merged together into a single entity, and which additional mortal souls continue to merge into. (Essentially, the normal course of things is for souls to attain Nirvana with their alignment appropriate plane.)
2) Yes, entity. While, with a few really stand-out exceptions (like Mephistopheles, the 8th layer of Hell made flesh), the planes are nearly impossible to meaningfully communicate with, but they are conscious and intelligent.
3) An exemplar, like a demon, daemon, or devil, is a soul who has been invested in power from its plane instead of unifying with it.
4) Thus, every archon is an extension of Heaven, every protean an extension of the Maelstrom, and every daemon an extension of Abaddon.
5) And so exemplars are hardwired into behaviors that represent their sponsor planes. You could think of them as extremely sophisticated AIs running programs written by the planes.
6) And occasionally there are glitches in the software, and so an exemplar is "corrupted" or "redeemed" and claimed by a new sponsor plane. And the various exemplar races do devote quite a bit of effort into trying to induce glitches in each other.
7) So keep in mind for the most part that most exemplars don't have free will; they only have the illusion of it. Actually having it is the purview of mortals, and part of why mortals are such a big deal.
8) And so ultimately, the answer for "why do all daemons try to destroy souls" is "Because Abaddon itself seeks oblivion, and the daemons, knowingly or not, carry out its will."
Going off topic, I wonder what this means for the Qlippoth. Do they oppose their plane's will for wanting to stop demons from being formed, or do they carry out their plane's will and the abyss does not want the demons to exist?
Nice change from 1st ed, when the only female fiend of note ...I would not say that, there were after all, The Queen of Chaos, Zuggtmoy and that little girl Lolth, all stirring up trouble in the playground.
And while not a fiend herself, Iggwilv sired a few of her own.
Also, Tiamat was Queen of evil dragons and ruled from the first layer of Hell. While not a fiend again, the devils gave her the very key to their doorstep.
Nice job quoting Dragon 76 though, easily in my top 10 Dragon Magazines particularly because of that article.
There was also Glasya, daughter of Asmodeus who actually had an overt Temple in Raven's Bluff. She also had an inconclusive throwdown with Sune in the Living City during the Avatar Crisis. Something that Sune doesn't forget... or forgive as those who played House Cleaning 3.5 might relate.
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Going off topic, I wonder what this means for the Qlippoth. Do they oppose their plane's will for wanting to stop demons from being formed, or do they carry out their plane's will and the abyss does not want the demons...
Qlippoths are avatars of what their plane once was. The Abyss is screwball as all heck because it apparently used to be part of a different multiverse with different rules, and then the proteans breached it and the Abyss suddenly became the universe's dumping ground for chaotic evil souls. Whether the Abyss's original multiverse can even be reached through it is unknown.
And then the daemons showed the Abyss what it could do with all those souls, and the Abyss doesn't really need its qlippoths anymore.
From the qlippoth perspective, the Abyss is a horribly twisted mockery of what it once was. And so they fight to bring back the home they once knew.