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I was poring over the Campaign Setting for research when this little tidbit in the Language section caught my eye: Some linguists posit that the ancient Thassilonian language was the first with three grammatical genders.
A lot of folks consider a third gender classification to default to neutral or "it", but making special note of that is similar to making note that the Azlantis discovered water. The other definition of such a classification is for those languages that recognize an actual "third gender", whatever the tongue's culture may consider that to be.
Kind of etches a bit more depth into Thassilon and its possible differences with its contemporaries as well as modern culture. Did Thassilon have a higher frequency or higher level of acceptance of hermaphroditism, transgenderism, or whatever else(and there's a lot) might be classified under such a vague umbrella term? If so, did any of the Runelords fall under that classification? How could it have shaped Thassilon's culture, and what might have survived of it to present day? (come to think of it, quite a bit of the scene in Kaer Maga could very well reflect certain old Thassilon values) Wonder if echoes of this might be found in modern Variisan, Shoanti, and Giant culture...
On the other hand, the concept was pretty wide spread in different incarnation throughout the real ancient world. Then again, the book only says Thassilon may have been the first to label it as such.
Just struck me as a neat detail tucked away there. Never noticed it before now.
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Coming from a language which recognizes the third, neutral gender (and sometimes fourth one as well. And sometimes ... well ... read for yourself) I can pretty much imagine Thassilionian being the "Hungarian" of Golarion languages.
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Coming from a language which recognizes the third, neutral gender (and sometimes fourth one as well. And sometimes ... well ... read for yourself) I can pretty much imagine Thassilionian being the "Hungarian" of Golarion languages.
It has been far too long since I've visited Uncyclopedia. I actually did do a double take. :D
After a moment I switched to the actual Wikipedia article on the subject.
I just now gave up and went back to the Uncyclopedia one. ;)
Well, there are all sorts of odd things in a magical world. Are aboleths gendered like humans or fish, or are they hermaphroditic like snails? I'd vote for the later, though there are creepier possibilities like them being sexed more like anglerfish with the little tiny male aboleths being fused to the sides of the larger females, which still makes them hermaphroditic, but not in the usual way.
I'm pretty certain that Thassilonian's needed that third gender for just such questions.
Real world languages with a third gender have nothing to do with all that. German and other Germanic languages, for example, have masculine, feminine, and neuter genders. It's not because the Teutons were all about the trannies. Similarly, nouns aren't male or female for any good reason other than what letters they happen to end with.
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The other definition of such a classification is for those languages that recognize an actual "third gender", whatever the tongue's culture may consider that to be.
Neat concept, but I doubt that was the designer's intent. So, as far as the "canon" goes, I think this has more to do with syntax, not gender politics.
However, for your home game, why not? If your players are comfortable with transgender issues (many are not, as indicated by some of the posts in this thread), it could be an interesting spin.
Considering the possibilities of a magical society, I'd seriously consider the impact of transhumanism/H+ on gender roles and identity.
Unfortunately, gender studies is an area where I'm seriously lacking, so I can't contribute too much to this conversation. However, I'd love to hear some ideas.
Well, what gender is a fire elemental ? Or a protean or whatever. These Thassilonians and such were dealing with lots of outsiders and other magickal creatures...
And Aboleths were originally Psi creatures, maybe they used Psi to reproduce. They were Psi-gendered we have to mindmeld to mate...
Well, there are all sorts of odd things in a magical world. Are aboleths gendered like humans or fish, or are they hermaphroditic like snails? I'd vote for the later, though there are creepier possibilities like them being sexed more like anglerfish with the little tiny male aboleths being fused to the sides of the larger females, which still makes them hermaphroditic, but not in the usual way.
I'm pretty certain that Thassilonian's needed that third gender for just such questions.
well the bestiary does state all aboleths are hermaphroditic. Most likely Thessilon might've had them and accepted them as the Azlant praised their creators who brought them up to civilisation, before attempting to destroy them.
I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case and concerning the lords, you can always write up yourself if one of them were. Perhaps the Lord of Lust?
Gender in languages is (in theory) pretty much independent of sex, and is usually more about making a consistent system of how words should behave. Swedish has Common and Neuter, for example. In German, Madchen (girl) and Weib (woman) are Neuter, but Musik (music) is feminine.
This sort of thing can get perverse. Take the French for pen. Stylo is masculine; plume is feminine. But they refer to the same thing.
Now it's possible that Thassilonian would have used Neuter to refer to an aboleth, but the Germans think that cattle (Vieh) are Neuter. So I wouldn't overestimate the significance of this.
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Gender in languages is (in theory) pretty much independent of sex, and is usually more about making a consistent system of how words should behave. Swedish has Common and Neuter, for example. In German, Madchen (girl) and Weib (woman) are Neuter, but Musik (music) is feminine.
This sort of thing can get perverse. Take the French for pen. Stylo is masculine; plume is feminine. But they refer to the same thing.
Now it's possible that Thassilonian would have used Neuter to refer to an aboleth, but the Germans think that cattle (Vieh) are Neuter. So I wouldn't overestimate the significance of this.
Quite right, especially for the gender in language vs sex. I never understood why a ship is "female" (she) in English whereas it is "male" (il) in French.
Note however that stylo and plume are not exactly the same thing (and we have stylo-plume too). I find the Neuter in German for girl and woman far more disconcerting.
Well, what gender is a fire elemental ? Or a protean or whatever. These Thassilonians and such were dealing with lots of outsiders and other magickal creatures...
In French, they are both "male" in that we use "il" rather than "elle" to refer to these. However, if such an outsider could be identified as being a definitive female (for example by being close in name and behaviour to a woman or insisting on being treated like a lady), we would refer to it as "elle" to be in accordance with the gender it views itself as being.
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Well, what gender is a fire elemental ? Or a protean or whatever. These Thassilonians and such were dealing with lots of outsiders and other magickal creatures...
At least once a month in the editorial cube we end up discussing whether, say, an animate pile of organs with eye-mouths and insectile legs should be referred to with gendered pronouns. I pity our translators!
And hm, now I'm wondering whether Thassilonian was the first to have as many as three linguistic genders (maybe Azlanti had no such distinction, like Farsi or Chinese, or divided the genders only between animate-inanimate like Hittite), or whether Thassilonian was the first to have so few genders compared to Azlanti's 5, 10, or even more genders/noun classes (it's probably cruel to make your players get the distinctions right)—perhaps because of creolization with the original languages of the Shoanti/Varisians?
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Coming from a language which recognizes the third, neutral gender (and sometimes fourth one as well. And sometimes ... well ... read for yourself) I can pretty much imagine Thassilionian being the "Hungarian" of Golarion languages.
Cool link. though I would blame the bowel movements on the abuse of Zubrovka rather tahn the language.