How do you handle the following situation?
The PCs are talking with a group of NPCs. The NPCs are not allies, and the two groups have no strong inhibitions about fighting each other. However, at the moment, they are talking. At some point, somebody decides that talking is not going to work and takes an offensive action.
Clearly, we need to roll initiative, but how do you handle the actions of the character that started? Everyone is aware of everyone else, so it seems that there should not be a surprise round. On the other hand, since only that character knew what he was going to do in advance, it seems that he should have some advantage towards going first.
I can think of several ways to handle this.
1. Since the character was the only one aware that the situation had turned violent, he is the only one to be considered "aware" and can act in the surprise round.
1a. Other characters can make a sense motive to determine if they realize what the first character is about to do. I can see this being opposed by bluff (if the character tries to hide what he is doing) or something like dex + BAB (the character is skilled enough to quickly act before others have time to realize what she is doing).
2. Combat starts with a normal round but the character gets a bonus (+2, +5, +10?) to initiative, so is more likely to go first.
How do other people handle this?
the violent guy gets a surprise round then initiative
How do you handle the following situation?
The PCs are talking with a group of NPCs. The NPCs are not allies, and the two groups have no strong inhibitions about fighting each other. However, at the moment, they are talking. At some point, somebody decides that talking is not going to work and takes an offensive action.
Clearly, we need to roll initiative, but how do you handle the actions of the character that started? Everyone is aware of everyone else, so it seems that there should not be a surprise round. On the other hand, since only that character knew what he was going to do in advance, it seems that he should have some advantage towards going first.
I can think of several ways to handle this.
1. Since the character was the only one aware that the situation had turned violent, he is the only one to be considered "aware" and can act in the surprise round.
1a. Other characters can make a sense motive to determine if they realize what the first character is about to do. I can see this being opposed by bluff (if the character tries to hide what he is doing) or something like dex + BAB (the character is skilled enough to quickly act before others have time to realize what she is doing).
2. Combat starts with a normal round but the character gets a bonus (+2, +5, +10?) to initiative, so is more likely to go first.
How do other people handle this?
I'd say that the attacking character gets his surprise round and then everyone roles initiative.
The guy making the first move can attempt a bluff or a slight of hand check vs Sense Motive or Perception, but only if the player declares he's doing so (and likely at a penalty, since everyone's on edge). If he just says "I draw my sword and attack", then it's straight initiative. Everyone sees him reaching for his sword aggressively, and initiative determines how fast they react.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I go with 2 unless the actor specifically takes steps to hide their actions (using Bluff the OP noted above). I am in full agreement with ZappoHisbane's view of such situations.
I don't like to encourage players to try to be the first one to declare an attack, and I find using rule 1 results in conversations devolving into combats faster because there's an incentive to be the first person to break off negotiations.
I go with 2 unless the actor specifically takes steps to hide their actions (using Bluff the OP noted above). I am in full agreement with ZappoHisbane's view of such situations.
I don't like to encourage players to try to be the first one to declare an attack, and I find using rule 1 results in conversations devolving into combats faster because there's an incentive to be the first person to break off negotiations.
Just like in real life. The angry guy throwing the punch is going to get to go first.
Just like in real life. The angry guy throwing the punch is going to get to go first.
Right... because we've never seen the guy about to throw the first punch grappled from behind by his friends, or taken out by bodyguards before he has a chance to hurt the target...
I see two details being important. #1 how unexpected/random was this, #2 was the PC/Player outwardly demonstrating frustration and agitation of someone who's loosing patience.
It's one thing for the blank faced rock like warrior who rarely talks to go from rest to killing stroke between on moment and another... and a warrior who shifting about, hand moving off and on his weapon, and so on.
The later case gives nothing, it's as sudden and unexpected as a lighting strike. The other would likely set the other side on edge, primed to react.
*edit*
Sorry a better #2, has this happened before/ is the character in question known for this kind of behavior?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Just like in real life. The angry guy throwing the punch is going to get to go first.I go with 2 unless the actor specifically takes steps to hide their actions (using Bluff the OP noted above). I am in full agreement with ZappoHisbane's view of such situations.
I don't like to encourage players to try to be the first one to declare an attack, and I find using rule 1 results in conversations devolving into combats faster because there's an incentive to be the first person to break off negotiations.
And, unlike in real life, people can never remember who is in the room, where they are relative to each other, or have a coherent conversation where one person speaks for 5 people, and 5 people speak for themselves.
Nor do people routinely attack other groups with whom they are conversing, nor do they routinely need to obtain information from such persons before attacking. Also, unlike real life, most groups will contain that one bored/aggressive player who will attack armed men who outnumber his friends 3 to 1.
I really don't know why I would even consider real life in figuring out how to handle the situation. Getting players to negotiate in game is hard, getting players not to go off the handle because they are bored is hard, and effectively roleplaying a conversation is hard. I really don't see how providing incentive to make those things harder, irrespective of how it goes down in real life (particularly when I don't even know how real life fights involving large groups of melee armed combatants (not fists (generally)) break out or how hard it is to react), helps.
Just like in real life. The angry guy throwing the punch is going to get to go first.
However, a perceptive individual will notice that the angry guy is out of control, and can react to his ensuing violence. And preempt it if he rolls high enough initiative :P
Conversely, there should be the opportunity to fail a Sense Motive check miserably, and think the some hot-head is gonna attack when he really isn't. How would you implement that? I dunno.
Conversely, there should be the opportunity to fail a Sense Motive check miserably, and think the some hot-head is gonna attack when he really isn't. How would you implement that? I dunno.
"He looks like he's going for his sword, roll for initive!"
What the players do after that... well depends on the level of hack and slash :P . At the very least they could draw weapons.
Side note: unless they have quick draw or already have a weapon in hand, they cannot draw and attack in the surprise round. Free draws come with BAB +1 combine with a Move (not Standard) action.
If this tactic was to enter the house rules i'd use options 1a).
The possibility for skill use is a great way to "empower" the players when the tactic is used against them.