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Do people still believe in Deities (despite their non-existence)?
Would the PLAYERS know that there are know Deities or is that a campaign secret?
Strictly speaking planar stuff doesn't matter all that much until higher levels but some things to consider:
What happens when someone casts a Summon Monster spell (particularly fiendish/celestial versions)? How will this effect Summoners? Their eidolons?
Are there Outsiders? If so where do they exist?
If there aren't any planes are places like Heaven/Hell actually physical places one can reach by travelling far enough?
(The absence of real gods doesn't make much difference. The absence of planes on the other hand has lots of trickle-down problems).
I'm running a campaign soon, and i'm trying to think about if any problems will be caused by me not using any deities. There is still divine magic, and paladins and clerics and oracles and whatnot, but no deities, just ideals.
Yeah, I always wanted to create a world like that. (Although in my case, I wanted the clerics, etc. to have DELUSIONS of their powers coming from gods, when those powers come from the clerics themselves.)
My campaign also has only the prime material plane. As far as i can see, it shouldn't really cause any problems, but i've never been great at the bigger picture of these things.
Well... there IS the question of where elementals and outsiders come from, and go back to when someone casts Summon Monster, for example. And what about the Ethereal Plane? What happens when someone casts Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, etc? Where are ghosts, if not in the ethereal plane? And what about the Astral Plane? How do spells like Teleport work, if not through the Astral Plane?
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Well... there IS the question of where elementals and outsiders come from, and go back to when someone casts Summon Monster, for example. And what about the Ethereal Plane? What happens when someone casts Ethereal Jaunt, Etherealness, etc? Where are ghosts, if not in the ethereal plane? And what about the Astral Plane? How do spells like Teleport work, if not through the Astral Plane?
Some people are just way to used to the official explanations about how some things work, when it can really all be explained with a single word: Magic.
Elementals/Outsiders - Perhaps they come from somewhere with extreme conditions, without that place needing to be a different plane of existence.
Summon Monster - Either it creates previously non-existing monsters out of nothing, or it draws them from some other part of the universe. It's not a difficult concept.
When something becomes "ethereal" it just becomes insubstantial. Again, you don't have to have a separate plane, you just have to have magic.
It's called Teleport...you don't HAVE to have an astral plane. You disappear in one spot and re-appear in another.
There is absolutely no problem with having no deities in your campaign world. I'm in the process of writing such a homebrew myself - the people still have churches (some of them even believe in god, a God, or the gods, whatever), but no one has confirmed (or not) the existence of deity - IE, if there are gods, they really don't ever do anything in the campaign world.
But a cleric's choice of domains is limited by his church/philosophy.
Having no planes, though, is a problem. You'll need to find a new place for Outsiders. Most elementals are easy, since they can be converted to nature spirits. But Angels/Demons/Devils become hard. Same goes for spells like commune, contact other plane, etc., where you actually communicate with either deities or powerful outsiders.
I suggest instead of declaring "no planes", you declare that the planes are unknown. (Trust me - keeping things vague is a lot easier than stating definitively "No this doesn't exist".) You get rid of only two spells: plane shift and gate, and declare that there's no real way to cross over into other planes. Demons/Devils/Angels become more unknown quantities, but still retain their basic flavor as manifestations of mankind's greatest fears/desires.
Alternatively, you can simply get rid of those spells. One of our homebrews took place in a world that was locked away from the other planes due to an ancient demonic invasion. So those spells simply didn't exist. (Teleport and similar utility spells did, but that was purely for conveniences' sakes. Summon spells still worked, but only summoned powerful animals and magical beasts, not outsiders, since they didn't exist in this setting.)
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It's called Teleport...you don't HAVE to have an astral plane. You disappear in one spot and re-appear in another.Sure, but you can simply make it an empty plane and avoid having to rewrite the fluff of the spells.
I'm just saying that people are making this sound much much harder than it has to be. There's almost nothing in the rulebooks that requires different planes to work (short of a few spells like Plane Shift, obviously). I'd actually say that not having deities is MORE of a problem than not having planes.
Some people are just way to used to the official explanations about how some things work, when it can really all be explained with a single word: Magic.
You know what, Kthulhu? I agree. I had little time to consider my post earlier, or I would have mentioned the SOLUTIONS as well as the PROBLEMS. In particular, I would have said something much like this...
Elementals/Outsiders - Perhaps they come from somewhere with extreme conditions, without that place needing to be a different plane of existence.
In fact, I've always been puzzled as to why some people consider elemental planes to be necessary to a D&D world. I always imagined a fantasy world based loosely on the philosophies of Empedocles and Aristotle, in which there was an "Earth Realm" on the bottom, a "Water Realm" above that, an "Air Realm" above that, and a "Fire Realm" above that. In other words, the elemental planes wouldn't be planes at all, but different physical locations in the same plane of existence. The philosophers of my world would use this to explain gravity, for example. Materials made mostly of earth, such as rocks, want to go down to their realm. So does water, but since the Water Realm is closer, the gravitational pull of the rock is stronger, so rocks sink. (The question of why some materials are buoyant could be explained by impurities in those materials.) But even water falls below air, since the Air Realm is UP. And fire points upward, trying to reach higher than the air, because its realm is higher, so its upward pull is stronger. All material would hence be thought of as having a natural inclination to go somewhere, as living beings do.
This is not to say that these elements are intelligent, as people are. But rather, they would be explained to have natural inclinations, like earthworms burrowing to the surface of the earth after a rainstorm, and burrowing down again when the earth goes dry. Elements would just have basic drives without intellect, like an amoeba, or a game show host.
(Of course, any player who tries to inject any knowledge of real-world, modern day physics into my world would be subject to my godly DM-wrath.)
And +1 to some of your other suggestions as well...
Summon Monster - Either it creates previously non-existing monsters out of nothing, or it draws them from some other part of the universe. It's not a difficult concept.
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It's called Teleport...you don't HAVE to have an astral plane. You disappear in one spot and re-appear in another.
On the other hand, THIS suggestion...
When something becomes "ethereal" it just becomes insubstantial. Again, you don't have to have a separate plane, you just have to have magic.
...is a tad awkward. If there are two ethereal characters, can they touch each other? If so, that sounds like a plane to me.
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If there are two ethereal characters, can they touch each other? If so, that sounds like a plane to me.
How about I throw a bit of bad pseudo-science at you? Perhaps things that are "ethereal" are simply out of phase with the majority of the matter in the universe...but are also in phase with all the other things that are "ethereal".
I'm just constantly amazed that people can play in a game where Wish exists, but they can't wrap their heads around Teleport working in the absence of an Astral Plane or other similar things.
I've always been a fan of the simple idea that there is the material plane - everything we can see, touch, and manipulate. Then there is he immaterial plane - also called the plane of shadows, the dream world, the spirit world, etc. It's where 'heaven' and 'hell' exist (if they exist). it's where magic isn't something abstract, but something living. And it's where you go when you have those nightmares that are so real that you wake up swearing that you could have actually died while in it.
The gods things is far more tricky, but it sounds like you have a bead on what you want to do with that one.
If there are two ethereal characters, can they touch each other? If so, that sounds like a plane to me.How about I throw a bit of bad pseudo-science at you? Perhaps things that are "ethereal" are simply out of phase with the majority of the matter in the universe...but are also in phase with all the other things that are "ethereal".
I'm just constantly amazed that people can play in a game where Wish exists, but they can't wrap their heads around Teleport working in the absence of an Astral Plane or other similar things.
Ethereal Creatures not working without the plane they are designed to exist on is not the same as, or even related to, having issues with how Teleport works.
You go from D&D to our earth in belief and you go to scifi for the effect :) Our Earth - are gods real, no. SciFi- we do teleport and things, beam us up :)
If there are two ethereal characters, can they touch each other? If so, that sounds like a plane to me.How about I throw a bit of bad pseudo-science at you? Perhaps things that are "ethereal" are simply out of phase with the majority of the matter in the universe...but are also in phase with all the other things that are "ethereal".
And I'll throw some bad pseudo-science right back at you. If you say that all ethereal things are "in phase with" each other, then even if there isn't an "ethereal plane" literally, then anyone can describe ethereal beings by saying that they are on the ethereal plane. It's a model to describe and explain what's happening.
Don't get me wrong. I agree with just about everything else you said. But I don't think we'll ever come to an agreement about the ethereal plane.
You are basicly replacing Angels with Aliens, such as the Greys.
The Demons and Devils would be literally living inside the planet.
Ghosts would have to stay in the near etherial till they move on.
You are basicly putting back up the Admantium walls the Encyclopedia of the Occult talks about.
Since Phase Spiders move in the 4th dimension, they cannot disappear completely. They can become slightly out of phase, so if you attack where they are headed, you might hit them.
We are coming periously close to quoting Rush Limbaugh when he says "Half-Astral". Nobody wants that. :(
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I created a world like this once but never got to use it.
Creatures in the campaign world didn't worship gods but might use famous people, locations, etc. as a focus for an ideal. As an example, a cleric with Strength and War domains might decide lions exemplify those ideals so he'd work a bunch of lion stuff into his magic. Alternately, a paladin might draw spritual strength from his queen if he views the woman as the perfect example of lawful good behavior. I didn't go into the business of why this worked. It just did and it worked out fine.
There was only one plane and places like the underworld, hell and heaven were just places to which you could travel. If I wanted water elementals, they just came out of a river or a lake. Demons and devils came from a Dante's Inferno-type cave deep underground and angels were from a city in the clouds or high in the mountains.
Magic did what it said it did in the rulebook in the simplest way possible. Summon Monster teleported monsters from random locations across the world and teleportation just meant a creature popped up somewhere it wasn't a moment earlier. Spells like Shadow Walk and Rope Trick didn't require or create other planes of existence. They just used pre-existiing spaces of which most people weren't aware or couldn't access. It'd be like if you suddenly found a key to a tunnel from the space under your bed to Disneyland or discovered the interior of your refrigerator was really the size of a walk-in closet. If I came across a creature, rule or game effect that absolutely needed another plane or a deity to work, I either altered it or left it out.
There was no parralel world to this one but, just for fun, I made the world basically flat. A person could conceivably fall off into space if they traveled too far or dug too deep but, at the time in the campaign, nobody was aware of anyone ever reaching the edge of the world.
I created a world like this once but never got to use it.
Creatures in the campaign world didn't worship gods but might use famous people, locations, etc. as a focus for an ideal. As an example, a cleric with Strength and War domains might decide lions exemplify those ideals so he'd work a bunch of lion stuff into his magic. Alternately, a paladin might draw spritual strength from his queen if he views the woman as the perfect example of lawful good behavior. I didn't go into the business of why this worked. It just did and it worked out fine.
There was only one plane and places like the underworld, hell and heaven were just places to which you could travel. If I wanted water elementals, they just came out of a river or a lake. Demons and devils came from a Dante's Inferno-type cave deep underground and angels were from a city in the clouds or high in the mountains.
Magic did what it said it did in the rulebook in the simplest way possible. Summon Monster teleported monsters from random locations across the world and teleportation just meant a creature popped up somewhere it wasn't a moment earlier. Spells like Shadow Walk and Rope Trick didn't require or create other planes of existence. They just used pre-existiing spaces of which most people weren't aware or couldn't access. It'd be like if you suddenly found a key to a tunnel from the space under your bed to Disneyland or discovered the interior of your refrigerator was really the size of a walk-in closet. If I came across a creature, rule or game effect that absolutely needed another plane or a deity to work, I either altered it or left it out.
There was no parralel world to this one but, just for fun, I made the world basically flat. A person could conceivably fall off into space if they traveled too far or dug too deep but, at the time in the campaign, nobody was aware of anyone ever reaching the edge of the world.
I once designed a flat earth. It was called horizon. The sun hung over the middle of the game world, fixed. If you traveled too far you would run into artic wastes. Far enough from the sun, even gasses froze. The frost elves were beings from another "Planet" who brought normal elves in magical sleep with them. It was for my homebrew game system that never caught on.
And I'll throw some bad pseudo-science right back at you. If you say that all ethereal things are "in phase with" each other, then even if there isn't an "ethereal plane" literally, then anyone can describe ethereal beings by saying that they are on the ethereal plane. It's a model to describe and explain what's happening.
Except that doesn't work. Consider the following two vectors: (1, 1) and (1, 1, 0). If you embed the first in a three dimensional space, then it is right on top of the second, however you cannot do things such take a cross product with it while you can take a cross product with the second vector. While could draw analogies between something that is "out of phase" and something that is on another plane, consider following example: someone on the material plane casts AMF, and an ethereal creature comes by, what happens? Since AMF only extends through the material plane, considering ethereal creatures to be "out of phase" with regular matter which cause them to get hit by the AMF. If the creature is on a separate plane, then they will simply be out of range of the AMF and go right "around" it.
Like has been posted here, the game mechanics assume certain planes exist and without, a lot of spells and abilities no longer work.
It can be done, but you have the extra work to do of explaining how they work and making a lot of DM decisions on the fly as issues arise.
A better way to do it is to make your own simplified cosmology. Like have 2 or 3 planes and then "remap" the default planes to your own.
A godless campaign is also possible, but then how do you explain divine magic?
And I'll throw some bad pseudo-science right back at you. If you say that all ethereal things are "in phase with" each other, then even if there isn't an "ethereal plane" literally, then anyone can describe ethereal beings by saying that they are on the ethereal plane. It's a model to describe and explain what's happening.Except that doesn't work. Consider the following two vectors: (1, 1) and (1, 1, 0). If you embed the first in a three dimensional space, then it is right on top of the second, however you cannot do things such take a cross product with it while you can take a cross product with the second vector. While could draw analogies between something that is "out of phase" and something that is on another plane, consider following example: someone on the material plane casts AMF, and an ethereal creature comes by, what happens? Since AMF only extends through the material plane, considering ethereal creatures to be "out of phase" with regular matter which cause them to get hit by the AMF. If the creature is on a separate plane, then they will simply be out of range of the AMF and go right "around" it.
Ghosts would go somewhere they could not remember, lost time. Summoned creatures would go home, then come back if any time remains.
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I think you could work around not having any planes. Why not just let there be different planets. Planet of elemental fire, ect. And there could be gods, just be like our god (this is my opinion so don't make this drama) have little sign of activity in modern life. Commune could work, doesn't mean other people are going to believe you are actually talking to a god.
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Like has been posted here, the game mechanics assume certain planes exist and without, a lot of spells and abilities no longer work.
Not really. They might require a small bit of re-fluffing, but about the only spell/abilities that just wouldn't work would be plane shift and similar spells for traveling to different planes.
....about the only spell/abilities that just wouldn't work would be plane shift and similar spells for traveling to different planes.Even then they might be a form of uncontrollable long-range teleport.
Anyone who thought such a spell would work, would bounce to somewhere where the creatures and environment were most like the plane they were trying to reach.
Heaven might be a Fortian planetoid in the upper atmosphere.http://fortean.wikidot.com/new-lands
Ghosts would go somewhere they could not remember, lost time. Summoned creatures would go home, then come back if any time remains.And I'll throw some bad pseudo-science right back at you. If you say that all ethereal things are "in phase with" each other, then even if there isn't an "ethereal plane" literally, then anyone can describe ethereal beings by saying that they are on the ethereal plane. It's a model to describe and explain what's happening.Except that doesn't work. Consider the following two vectors: (1, 1) and (1, 1, 0). If you embed the first in a three dimensional space, then it is right on top of the second, however you cannot do things such take a cross product with it while you can take a cross product with the second vector. While could draw analogies between something that is "out of phase" and something that is on another plane, consider following example: someone on the material plane casts AMF, and an ethereal creature comes by, what happens? Since AMF only extends through the material plane, considering ethereal creatures to be "out of phase" with regular matter which cause them to get hit by the AMF. If the creature is on a separate plane, then they will simply be out of range of the AMF and go right "around" it.
Why? If the summoned ethereal creatures never came into contact with the AMF, then they should never poof out. A creature that is in the very next square to an AMF is unaffected by the AMF. Back into vector notation, the creature located at (1,1,1) while the AMF is at (1,1,0). There is no reason for something at (1,1,1) to be affected because the AMF only propagates in the x-y plane. Now if the ethereal creatures were treated as "out of phase" creatures, then they would be affected because they may then only travel in the x-y plane and thus cannot be at (1,1,1) instead of (1,1,0).
erik542, I was still talking (X,X). The true etherial is blocked or non-existance in this hypothetical.
Banatine, the (1,1,1) probably is vector math. AMF is Anti Magic Field.
What I want to know, in this homebrew game world, are there other planets and systems? Is there a full outer space?
I'm running a campaign soon, and i'm trying to think about if any problems will be caused by me not using any deities. There is still divine magic, and paladins and clerics and oracles and whatnot, but no deities, just ideals.
My campaign also has only the prime material plane. As far as i can see, it shouldn't really cause any problems, but i've never been great at the bigger picture of these things.
i run a game now where there are no major gods there all more or less names having maybe as much as a large city worshiping them and not much more.......
it allows my games clerics not to be limited by there alignment vs gods domains
I'm running a campaign soon, and i'm trying to think about if any problems will be caused by me not using any deities. There is still divine magic, and paladins and clerics and oracles and whatnot, but no deities, just ideals.
My campaign also has only the prime material plane. As far as i can see, it shouldn't really cause any problems, but i've never been great at the bigger picture of these things.
Flip the Divine magic idea over to Psionic. Do not change anything but the name.
Most Psionic are dealing with positive and negative aura's. (sound familiar). Much like the Force from Star Wars, different people have different types (Priest/Psionicist, Paladin, Ranger, Druid, etc etc etc)
Leave the spells the same. Might change the name Miracle to Warp Reality, but really nothing needs to be changed, except a few names.
Anyway thats what works for me :D
Banishment might destroy creatures utterly or just trap them in a small home base.
You can use different planets, and the summoning/planar ally/banishment spells use planets instead of planes. Even use starjammer for inspiration.
You can use different planets, and the summoning/planar ally/banishment spells use planets instead of planes. Even use starjammer for inspiration.
Plane of Ooze=HOL-Humans.
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It's easy. No planes? Ethereal is then a property of creatures, not a place. If you turn ethereal, you don't go anywhere strange. You simply become less solid.
Teleport? How does that work? It instantly places you somewhere else by magic. That's how. It doesn't need any plane to move you through. It's magic.
Plenty of fantasy games have teleportation and things that require no other planes.
Summoning is just as easy. It brings into being a creature. That creature ceases to exist at the end of the spell.
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It's easy. No planes? Ethereal is then a property of creatures, not a place. If you turn ethereal, you don't go anywhere strange. You simply become less solid.
Teleport? How does that work? It instantly places you somewhere else by magic. That's how. It doesn't need any plane to move you through. It's magic.
Plenty of fantasy games have teleportation and things that require no other planes.
Summoning is just as easy. It brings into being a creature. That creature ceases to exist at the end of the spell.
So AMF doesn't make a Ghost go anywhere, it just makes it go away. I'm onboard.