Tricks, Tips and Suggestions for Running Pathfinder OLD SKOOL

[Reynard]

Every once in a while, i get a hankering to run AD&D 1E or something like Labirynth Lord. The problem is, however, that I have some GM ADD issues and have been warned that switching up games or campaigns (again) is going to cost me players. Therefore, I am going to have to get my "old school" fix with PF.

So I thought I would start a thread where we can make suggestions and share tricks and tips for running PF (with all its new fangled player empowerment elements) in an Old School style.

The very first is simple: Let The Dice Fall Where They May. No fudging. No "action points". No re-rolls, no matter how much the players cry and/or beg.

next?

[jocundthejolly]

Clamping down on crafting has been discussed a lot on here. There's no question this is one of the biggest changes since the old days. It used to be that you were lucky to find some magic stuff, but now it is assumed that you are (mass-)producing stuff.

[MendedWall12]

Reynard wrote:

The very first is simple: Let The Dice Fall Where They May. No fudging. No "action points". No re-rolls, no matter how much the players cry and/or beg.

next?

Isn't this already a Pathfinder rule? The only times I can even think of re-rolls being available would be something like Elven Accuracy. Also, by action points do you mean hero points? Hero points are a peripheral and not actually part of the core rules so if you and your players are sticking strictly to core RAW I don't think you should have to add that rule?

[cranewings]

I disallow Magic Item Creation. Instead, I give my players bonuses from this chart. My players really like it.

Level
1 Nothing
2 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
3 Strike and Damage +1
4 Skill +5, AC+1
5 Attribute +2
6 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
7 Strike and Damage +1
8 Low Skill +5, AC +1
9 Low Attribute +2
10 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
11 Strike and Damage +1
12 Skill +5, AC +1
13 Attribute +2
14 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
15 Strike and Damage +1
16 Low Skill +5 AC +1
17 Low Attribute +2
18 AC +1, Saving Throws +1
19 Strike and Damage +1
20 Attribute +2

The AC bonuses are like the Dex bonus, you don't get it when you are flat footed. Some of the skill and attribute bonuses must be added to an attribute or skill that isn't your highest. The damage bonus is like the strength bonus, applying +50% to two handed weapons.

Basically, this covers just about all of the implied bonuses that magical items are suppose to give you. You can then ban item creation. You just have to have restraint in giving out treasure. I'm not going to have any magic items with greater than +1 bonuses. I can, instead, give out equipment with interesting and magical / non-combat effects to suit my game without worrying about players hocking it for combat bonuses or selling it to make their own items.

[cranewings]

One of the biggest and most important things, when running it old school, is to ignore challenge ratings and just put enemies in that you feel go there. It is up to the players to be smart enough to know when to run. If this increases the number of deaths, so be it.

[TheRavyn]

Reynard wrote:

I thought I would start a thread where we can make suggestions and share tricks and tips for running PF (with all its new fangled player empowerment elements) in an Old School style.

The very first is simple: Let The Dice Fall Where They May. No fudging. No "action points". No re-rolls, no matter how much the players cry and/or beg.

next?

Eliminating Attacks of Opportunity goes a long way toward speeding up combat, making it more old-school and more in the arena of the imagination than the flip-mat.

More tips here: Old School DM, New School Players?

PS, not sure I'm doing the link code right, so: http://beyondtheblackgate.blogspot.com/2010/04/old-school-dm-new-school-pla yers.html

[vuron]

It really depends on what you call Old Skool.

For me that means adventuring in the Sandbox and Gygaxian Naturalism more so than making significant changes to the base Pathfinder ruleset, i.e. you don't have to turn it into some house-ruled monstrosity in order to simulate old school play.

I think it works best with a local to universal methodology in terms of world design. Give the PCs a locale that they are attached to and that will serve as the Hub of game at least until higher levels (7-8). Adventure locales should be spokes from that hub. Eventually you will probably want to upgrade to a bigger/better hub but that's not an absolute requirement.

Adventure locales or zones will typically have a range of opposition that is somewhat discernable via scouting missions. There will often be a handful of opposition that is significantly more powerful than others. These encounters serve as roadblocks, gates, etc. They exist to encourage the PCs to occasionally flee but to also provide reasons to reuse previous locales.

The locale whether created as a traditional dungeon or cave complex or something more "modern" uses Gygaxian naturalism as a design ethos. A "dungeon" will react to external threats and is basically set up as a community where some encounters will cooperate while others are more static in nature. While there will be some use of the one big monster for some encounters many other encounters will involve spamming low CR mooks possibly led by a BBEG or his lieutenants.

If PB is used, I would suggest a lower PB value with limits on dump stats and max stats in order to avoid the 18,16,14,10,7,7 type characters. 4d6 is okay as is a fixed array arranged as desired. The object is to have characters that are more rounded and less specialized than is commonly found in 3.x. Use 3d6 in order only for short term one-shots.

I'd suggest heavily restricting creation feats to NPCs or reworking them into a more 1e mode. Allow them to barter as needed to get necessary items but if possible avoid the make on demand school of thought.

Don't be rigid about WBL. Be somewhat free with magic items so that they have the bonuses they want but also have incentive to keep all the "vendor trash" that CharOp specialists so dislike.

Don't be afraid to kill the PCs. There should be warning signs posted around obvious TPKs but don't stress if you kill off the whole party. Sometimes coming across the remains of a former party when the party is your old PCs can be kinda fun ;)

Don't get into the Player vs DM mentality. While it was common in the bad old days it's not something that needs to return when doing a retro feel game. Indeed most of the good old school GMs believe firmly in player empowerment even if they don't buy into player wish fulfillment.

[Fergie]

Nice header on the beyond the black gate site!

It is kind of funny, there is the good ole days of AD&D - light on the magic items, very little boardgame feel, descent into the unknown really being unknown, etc.

And there is the bad ole days of AD&D - Random tables for EVERYTHING, wizards and monks are unplayable until they are mid levels, half the stuff in unearthed arcana being totally unbalanced, and every save being against death.

For me the AD&D feel comes out when fighting classic monsters in a classic setting. A red dragon and a bunch of ogres in an underground cavern for example. There's no kitchens, bathrooms, or even a way to get water, but who cares... its fantasy!

EDIT: Playing at the lower levels is also more old skool to me. I don't think I every had a character over 8-9 level in AD&D, with most campaigns ending around level 6-7.

[Reynard]

Another thing that would help a lot is using the Slow Advancement chart. I started doing this and it did wonders for my game. Too fast advancement sucks the fun out of the game.

[Reynard]

Now that I am home, I can expound a little.

There are a few key aspects of "old school" play as far as I am concerned (and I am hardly any kind of expert; nor am I particularly old).

1) Adventuring is dangerous business: Going into holes, searching long lost treasures and otherwise engaging in what is referred to as adventuring is a fine way to get oneself killed. There are monsters in the dark, deadly traps, natural dangerous and dark forces at work against you. Whether you end up pierced with kobold punji sticks at the bottom of a pit or drowning while fording a river, an ignoble, ignominous death is the most likely outcome. Suck it up: heroes are the ones who live to see level 2.

2) There's the world, and then there's your world: Most folk live a grungy existence in a psuedo-European piss hole, eeking a living out of the earth for a few coppers a month. or they are born lucky and live in a cold, damp castle eating only partially rancid meat and getting their kicks from pushing around the peasants. Not you. Your world is the hidden world, the one those other people refuse to see and close their shutters against at night. You don't just acknowledge it, you brave it, go into it, grab it by the horns and hang on. Ancient mysteries and otherworldly wildernesses and subterranean nightmare realms are where you live -- and very likely die.

3) The Universe Doesn't Owe You Jack: Life isn't fair. Sometimes, you are first level and you encounter a red dragon. Sometimes you specialized in a halberd and find a magic warhammer. Sometimes, you get stung by a scorpion on the way to the Epic Confrontation and die in your sleep. Then again, sometimes you find the Orb of Dragonkind in a goblin warren two days after leaving home for the first time. Sometimes you wade through a sewer to discover a king's ransom guarded by two giant rats and a blind cutpurse. It's a wild, random world out there and the unknowable forces of the universe don't think about what level you are before filling it up with craziness.

4) Tales are Made in the Telling: There's no story, not until you drag your wounded carcass back to the inn and regale the pleebs with your daring do over a much deserved ale and a slab of mutton. If they tell your story, it's because you made one, not because it was foisted upon you. You don't follow paths; you blaze trails.

As to how all this relates to Pathfinder, I can't really say other than I think Vuzon has the right of it for the most part. Mostly it is play style rather than rules -- though I think the hexploration, kindgom development and mass combat rules in Kingmaker, for example, can help create an Old School feeling campaign.

[John Woodford]

I agree with Vuzon and Reynard wrt their comments on play style, with the following addition: Encourage your players to be innovative outside of their nominal skill set. If a player comes up with a spot-on description of how her fighter character is going to avoid a trap, let her do it. If the guy playing the wizard does a great job of fast-talking, ignore the lack of Diplomacy in his skill list. Skill rolls can be a great timesaver and a way for characters to do things the players can't, but don't treat them as the be-all and end-all of noncombat play.

The only real rules tweak I'd recommend--and I'm not sure how to implement this--is something to speed up character generation. Setting up a new character in OD&D or 1e didn't take long at all, which made losing a character early in their career a bit easier to take (i.e., you didn't lose a lot of time getting back into the game after you died).