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I also believe a hybrid solution would work. Box sets that are not completely random based around a "boss monster". For example, a Lich with random minions, or a Goblin Chief with assorted thematically related followers...WoTC did it with some sets (the name escapes me at the moment) where you could see the BBEG in the set plus 4 randoms.
According to the owner of my FLGS, this is one of the reasons that WoC is getting out of the minis business. He said that the sets that included one "boss" figure that was visible sold much more slowly (and thus were less profitable) than the totally random sets. After all, once you have a particular big figure, you don't want to buy a set that you KNOW includes the same one. How many gray, spotted unicorns do you need just on the off-chance of getting the last mini to complete the set?
As you mentioned further down, WotC already did this. It didn't work out well, because nobody wanted to buy a bunch of unicorns, and dealers were stuck with them.When WotC released the Legendary Evils set, the fastest selling boosters were the Elder Iron Dragon and the Elder Green Dragon.
The Balor was also pretty popular.
The huge Remorhaz? The huge Goristro? Not so much.
The Frost Titan and Storm Titan were pretty cool, too, but who needs more than one of those?
It's a lot easier to swallow unwanted dupes when they're random than when you're going and buying them knowing that it's what you're getting.
Perhaps it was much a function of them choosing the range of BBEGs poorly. Hence the suggestion that the contents of each pack be thematically linked.
How many packs of that visible large BBEG did you buy? If you only bought one, why didn't you buy more of them?
Just that one but one player in our group has thousands and thousands of minis already which we use in our group, so I only buy ones myself if I know exactly what I am getting (ie that particular BBEG and didn't care whether it came with any other figures or not). But even from that huge collection we can't always get enough figures that are even roughly close to the monsters we are encuontering
According to the owner of my FLGS, this is one of the reasons that WoC is getting out of the minis business. He said that the sets that included one "boss" figure that was visible sold much more slowly (and thus were less profitable) than the totally random sets. After all, once you have a particular big figure, you don't want to buy a set that you KNOW includes the same one. How many gray, spotted unicorns do you need just on the off-chance of getting the last mini to complete the set?
That is why it shouldn't be about "completing the set" if the minis are for roleplaying. Some players may want to get every mini in a particular set, many don't. I know everyone with whom I have played D&D/Pathfinder since the WoTC minis came out have no interest in collecting complete sets - though by the time you do get the ones you want you often do have a complete set! If the sets were thematic - evil wizard and minions or orc chief and bunch of other orcs - you know what you are getting. I would be prepared to pay a price premium for that.
A set of generic adventurers can be used for PCs and baddies. A band of orcs can cover for gnolls and lizardmen at a pinch. How many campaigns don't have at least one encounter with a bunch of zombies and skeletons? (Please don't try and list all the published modules that are completely zombie and skeleton-free ;-) )
If the visible figures had been ones with wider usability then perhaps the sets would have done better - especially if the smaller ones in the set were linked to it in some way. Unicorns, as you point out, have limited versatility. In 32 years of D&D I have never once encountered a unicorn but have waded through hordes of zombies, orcs, bandits, dragons, evil priests and the like.
Obviously the way the mini system was being run was unviable for WoTC to keep going the way they were. But given the obvious demand and the advances in technology I'm sure producing masses of pre-painted (or 3D colour printed) minis will again become viable.
That is why it shouldn't be about "completing the set" if the minis are for roleplaying. Some players may want to get every mini in a particular set, many don't. I know everyone with whom I have played D&D/Pathfinder since the WoTC minis came out have no interest in collecting complete sets - though by the time you do get the ones you want you often do have a complete set!
You answer it yourself right there - many don't. Given that it's been established that the more-desirable minis (the ones EVERYONE wants) subsidize the production of the less-desirable minis (the ones only some people want), any marketing or packaging that favors the more desirables over the less desirables means that the less desirables won't sell enough to be worth it to produce.
The collectible nature of these drove a pretty decent amount of sales.
If the sets were thematic - evil wizard and minions or orc chief and bunch of other orcs - you know what you are getting. I would be prepared to pay a price premium for that.
But once you have a set of orcs, you don't need MORE orcs. That again feeds into the packaging, distribution and choice of minis released. To make the minis sell enough to be profitable, they have to sell them in a way that will make people buy more than just that one booster.
A set of generic adventurers can be used for PCs and baddies. A band of orcs can cover for gnolls and lizardmen at a pinch. How many campaigns don't have at least one encounter with a bunch of zombies and skeletons? (Please don't try and list all the published modules that are completely zombie and skeleton-free ;-) )
Again, my point illustrated perfectly. Having a band of orcs, you can then substitute them for various other bands easily (and having them all be orcs makes it easier to sub them in for gnolls or lizardmen, because they're all the same - were they an orc, a goblin, a couple of werewolves and a couple of kobolds, it's just not the same).
Because you've purchased that band of orcs, now you're not quite as motivated to purchase the band of gnolls or lizardmen.
If the visible figures had been ones with wider usability then perhaps the sets would have done better - especially if the smaller ones in the set were linked to it in some way. Unicorns, as you point out, have limited versatility. In 32 years of D&D I have never once encountered a unicorn but have waded through hordes of zombies, orcs, bandits, dragons, evil priests and the like.
More universal, generic figures aren't nearly as flashy (not that the unicorn was flashy). Further, how usable are larges and huges on a regular basis. The vast majority of PCs, NPCs and monsters are medium.
Obviously the way the mini system was being run was unviable for WoTC to keep going the way they were. But given the obvious demand and the advances in technology I'm sure producing masses of pre-painted (or 3D colour printed) minis will again become viable.
I think that a portion of the "failure" of the minis line needs to be placed on the earlier marketing of the line - specifically, the complete up-end of the DDM v1 game, and then the cancellation of the DDM v2 game when 4E was released.
WotC was stuck with ever-plummeting sales, and started to see if the various claims of "I'll buy non-random minis!" were actually accurate.
I don't disagree that there is a demand for affordable plastic minis. That's not the question - the question is, can they be produced in a way to make them affordable?
There's a lot of factors that made production more expensive, not the least of which were oil prices and wage increases in China.
3D "printers" are nifty, but I don't think we'll be seeing them in the home space for another decade (this is my personal opinion, based on what I've read on the technology and the actual uses - this probably isn't the thread to get into a discussion about the machines). Even when they do become affordable, the "color" version of these is still not going to produce an aesthetically pleasing mini. The ABS extrusion process uses multiple single-color plastics, but it can only lay them down one at a time. It can't blend the colors, and even if it could, it couldn't produce shading and washes like paints can.
Again, my point illustrated perfectly. Having a band of orcs, you can then substitute them for various other bands easily (and having them all be orcs makes it easier to sub them in for gnolls or lizardmen, because they're all the same - were they an orc, a goblin, a couple of werewolves and a couple of kobolds, it's just not the same).Because you've purchased that band of orcs, now you're not quite as motivated to purchase the band of gnolls or lizardmen.
Maybe, maybe not. I only use figures to represent other ones when I don't have the actual race I want. If I could buy the ones I wanted I would do so. Sets of orcs, zombies, whatever.
Thirty years ago I bought a blister of assorted dwarves, a blister of assorted orcs and so on and then laboriously hand-painted them. Now there are, or perhaps were, optiosn to get pre-painted ones. If I am using them as monsters for my PCs to fight I don't care if all the footsoldiers are the same or not. I do care about not having to spend my time painting and would be quite happy to pay proportionally more for pre-painted. If it is the figure for my own PC then there are plenty of unpainted minis out there from which to try and find the best one for my characer - and the people to pay to paint them. For arrow fodder on the gaming table the same quality or variety is not necessary (but it is nice not to have plain metal ones).
This thread could get bogged down in tendentiousness. I am merely suggesting an alternative - which does not appear to have been tried, at least in the various WoTC lines - that might be a viable option if the right structure were found. While various Paizo staff have already said they cannot see a structure that would currently work (or at least work in a financially viable manner) and are investigating options to make it work, the whole purpose of the thread is for fans to discuss possible options.
Out of curiousity, does anyone know what all the former miniature painters in China are now doing? I've always imagined that there was a village or two somewhere near Shanghai where everyone did piece-work painting minis at home in a unusual cottage industry.....
There are companies out there like Wizkids that produce pre-painted plastic miniatures successfully, what's their secret?
There are companies out there like Wizkids that produce pre-painted plastic miniatures successfully, what's their secret?
Popularity of their game and subject matter.
I don't play the *clix games, but I don't believe that they've significantly changed rules during their development, so as to be incompatible with earlier sets.
That's a big strike against WotC/DDM, and was one of the major points where the sales started tanking.
As far as subject matter, comics, especially DC/Marvel, have a pretty large fanbase, much bigger than the RPG market, let alone the D&D market. I have no doubts that there is a fair amount of non-playing collector purchases in there.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also believe that they're not competing with themselves, in the sense that the DC Heroclix and the Marvel Heroclix are compatible.
This doesn't explain things like the failure of the Star Wars miniatures line, of course, which doesn't add up. I didn't get into the SWM as much as DDM, but I don't recall the same screw-ups with the SWM line as the DDM line.
I also believe a hybrid solution would work. Box sets that are not completely random based around a "boss monster". For example, a Lich with random minions, or a Goblin Chief with assorted thematically related followers...WoTC did it with some sets (the name escapes me at the moment) where you could see the BBEG in the set plus 4 randoms.According to the owner of my FLGS, this is one of the reasons that WoC is getting out of the minis business. He said that the sets that included one "boss" figure that was visible sold much more slowly (and thus were less profitable) than the totally random sets. After all, once you have a particular big figure, you don't want to buy a set that you KNOW includes the same one. How many gray, spotted unicorns do you need just on the off-chance of getting the last mini to complete the set?
But there was an interesting theory I had where it came to valid fruition -- there were a couple of awesome rares that I was chancing on coming across if I just happened to pick up a couple of those "boss" gray, spotted unicorns. I didn't continue to buy a whole bunch of those, but I wonder if some of that may have been pre-mediated if someone may have subjectively implied it? </adjust_tinfoil_hat>
There are companies out there like Wizkids that produce pre-painted plastic miniatures successfully, what's their secret?Popularity of their game and subject matter.
I don't play the *clix games, but I don't believe that they've significantly changed rules during their development, so as to be incompatible with earlier sets.
That's a big strike against WotC/DDM, and was one of the major points where the sales started tanking.
As far as subject matter, comics, especially DC/Marvel, have a pretty large fanbase, much bigger than the RPG market, let alone the D&D market. I have no doubts that there is a fair amount of non-playing collector purchases in there.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also believe that they're not competing with themselves, in the sense that the DC Heroclix and the Marvel Heroclix are compatible.
This doesn't explain things like the failure of the Star Wars miniatures line, of course, which doesn't add up. I didn't get into the SWM as much as DDM, but I don't recall the same screw-ups with the SWM line as the DDM line.
A few things...
WizKids HAS changed the rules for both HeroClix and Mage Knight. (I was one of the early judges or whatever they called them so I remember the debacle of the rules changes.) Before WK went under and was restarted, they had MK and HC, both of whcih sold fairly well. Then a few years into the games, they rebooted the lnes with new editions. For HC, it included some new rules that made older models less powerful and they banned the older models from santioned play.
For MK, they hanged the stats dramatically and made it impossible to play with the older models. (And they did this almost overnight. They released 2 expansions for MK 1.0 and within a month released MK 2.0, leaving hundreds of FLGS with cases of models that nobody would buy.) They split several stats into two and added an additional one. This basically left thousands of players with boxes of minis they could no longer use in santioned games. (Which, at the time, was where you could win uniques and so on). I stopped running Mk when that happened.
Anyway, HC is still doing fair. My FLGS ran weekly HC events, but its never bounced back like the old game. And a lot of the sets now are non-random. And the paint jobs are getting better.
But, last I saw, MK was dead. A lot of the popularity if HC comes from the Marvel/DC thing. A lot of non-gamers play HC because they can be Iron Man or Wolverine...
For HC, it included some new rules that made older models less powerful and they banned the older models from santioned play.
I'm not familiar with the game enough to say whether or not this constitutes a "significant" change as I discussed above, but at least in the context of comparison with DDMv1-to-DDMv2, if earlier models were still compatible with the newer models, then it wasn't on the same level as DDMv1-to-DDMv2.
I'm aware of the "official status of The DDM Guild, and the DDMv2 stats they published for DDMv1 minis, but this did little to help the line.
For MK, they hanged the stats dramatically and made it impossible to play with the older models. (And they did this almost overnight. They released 2 expansions for MK 1.0 and within a month released MK 2.0, leaving hundreds of FLGS with cases of models that nobody would buy.) They split several stats into two and added an additional one. This basically left thousands of players with boxes of minis they could no longer use in santioned games. (Which, at the time, was where you could win uniques and so on). I stopped running Mk when that happened.
And this is far more similar to how the DDMv1-to-DDMv2 transition occurred. They hosed the game, they invalidated earlier minis, and pissed those holding those earlier minis off, since the two versions weren't compatible (older minis not having the same stats the newer ones do).
I'll note that MK is no longer produced, just like DDM.
If, as you describe, HC didn't completely invalidate earlier product (of which one comes to expect some of this, much like how M:tG works), then they didn't annihilate customer loyalty like the handling of DDM did.
That goes a long way towards explaining how HC is still alive/thriving.
For HC, it included some new rules that made older models less powerful and they banned the older models from santioned play.I'm not familiar with the game enough to say whether or not this constitutes a "significant" change as I discussed above, but at least in the context of comparison with DDMv1-to-DDMv2, if earlier models were still compatible with the newer models, then it wasn't on the same level as DDMv1-to-DDMv2.
I'm aware of the "official status of The DDM Guild, and the DDMv2 stats they published for DDMv1 minis, but this did little to help the line.
For MK, they hanged the stats dramatically and made it impossible to play with the older models. (And they did this almost overnight. They released 2 expansions for MK 1.0 and within a month released MK 2.0, leaving hundreds of FLGS with cases of models that nobody would buy.) They split several stats into two and added an additional one. This basically left thousands of players with boxes of minis they could no longer use in santioned games. (Which, at the time, was where you could win uniques and so on). I stopped running Mk when that happened.They might have learned their Heroclix lesson from the MageKnght Debacle.
And this is far more similar to how the DDMv1-to-DDMv2 transition occurred. They hosed the game, they invalidated earlier minis, and pissed those holding those earlier minis off, since the two versions weren't compatible (older minis not having the same stats the newer ones do).
I'll note that MK is no longer produced, just like DDM.
If, as you describe, HC didn't completely invalidate earlier product (of which one comes to expect some of this, much like how M:tG works), then they didn't annihilate customer loyalty like the handling of DDM did.
That goes a long way towards explaining how HC is still alive/thriving.
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Problem there is that you now have two lines of minis.
By having a single line of blind-packaged minis, the lesser-desired minis can be subsidized by the others.
I was suggesting it as a halfway point between totally blind and pick-and-choose. As there are two classes of purchasers here (ones that GM and ones that don't) I'd hope there'd be enough business within each to subsidize the unpopular options for both monsters and humanoids.
As you mentioned further down, WotC already did this. It didn't work out well, because nobody wanted to buy a bunch of unicorns, and dealers were stuck with them.When WotC released the Legendary Evils set, the fastest selling boosters were the Elder Iron Dragon and the Elder Green Dragon.
The Balor was also pretty popular.
The huge Remorhaz? The huge Goristro? Not so much.
I think you give WotC too much credit and the buyers not enough. In my mind the reason for the poor performance of their line had everything to do with their choice of minis and less to do with buyers getting tired of 'too many orcs' or what have you. In my experience, over the several campaigns I've been in where minis were used extensively, we often wanted for more variety among 'stock' foes (something to differentiate the tough orc sergeant from his ten run of the mill buddies, or the archers from the falchion-wielding marauders) than we did for unusual/novel monsters. WotC's earlier runs (Dragoneye, Archfiends, Giants of Legend, etc) were chock full of iconic D&D villains and humanoids that, even if they represented a particular type of character from a particular setting, could easily be adapted to other uses. As time went on, though, they increasingly chose to release things like:
* Crownwings* Astral Hunters
* Kenku
* Manshoon
* Neogi
* Shardminds
* Swordwings
* Xeph
* Foulspawn
* Banshrae
* Kruthik
* Aforementioned spotted unicorn (their second unicorn in the series, btw)
How many of those have you run into in a campaign? I can't say I've ever seen, let alone heard of or read about, a single one. I don't know if they were trying to push sales of Monster Manuals with the minis or just had an overblown opinion of how popular these monsters were, but I'd honestly rather have more orcs, gnolls, etc.
So, blind pack monsters - sure. But a large part of WoTC's failure in this line is that a large portion of their monsters were crap.
Edit - The Players Handbook Heroes is a good case in point. They seemed so intent on pimping their 'new' races and classes (how many dragonborn do we need, honestly) they neglected more variety for iconic options like elven rangers, human fighters etc.
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I've spent a LOT of time looking at making prepainted plastic miniatures and the ONLY way that MIGHT be able to do it in the future is the blind packed route. And a bunch of customers would be mad at that. So what to do?
-Lisa
What you have always done, let your community brainstorm the problem. If it is our game, set the figure$ and the problem before us and let us come up with ideas that will make this fly. Perhaps something new will turn up on your end too and viola!
Pathfinder minis hit record sales.
I do agree, metal minis without paint blow. Painting is nice for your own special soldier but painting an army of adventure creatures just plain isn't in the cards for all of us. I would definitely buy Paizo minis...oh yeah!
I for one would love to have commons that never seemed plentiful enough.
Goblins? Never had enough of those. Have to go on eBay and buy a slug but all those silly sets have no uniformity when it comes to attire. They always have some different look between sets and when you put them together side-by-side it looks like someone grabbing any mini with the word goblin written under it. I want tribal colors to be fluid.
Also, I do not want commons to be goblin drummers. I want a lot of warriors.
I also want a towns people common. Just guys standing around in town for rumors. I don't want everyone with a sword in their hand looking like they are dying to kill someone for conversation.
Paizo's ideas for Golarion culture and countries is brimming with excellent themes. A rare Red Mantis would be all I need. I really don't want Red Mantis Apprentice or something silly.
I don't have the answer to this but I think if you make getting commons as useful as getting rares, that would be a good start. A lot of the time I was stuck with the most useless of minis. Celestial Badger??? I would much rather have a boar or a bear. WotC did get wolf right. If you guys seriously went this route, seriously I would be there for you. The single biggest mistake with WotC minis was being too descriptive about a mini in its title. Let's just have a Basilisk. Not a Dire Fiendish Greater Basilisk. The names got so goofy after awhile that I just about hated to buy the things.
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I'm also a huge fan of prepainted plastic minis (own more than 3k of them).
Since Reaper already had a prepainted mini line which was cancelled I doubt we will see any more of them soon-what a shame.
I'd happily pay about 20$ for a Pathfinder Mini Booster with about 7 Minis I think.
Hate whatever has come out of WotC since the beginning of 4E, but like Zyren, I like prepainted plastic. (I bought thousand of dollars' worth back in 3.X days....)
Why? I hate painting minis... I have no time for it whatsoever either...
There is a step between cardboard minis and pre-painted 3d plastic minis: shrinky-dinks.
My wife photoshops her characters, then prints them on shrinky-dinks to make her very own mini. It's 2d, takes a little fidgeting to size it right for the desired final scale*, and I don't think she's found stands that fit well yet, so is using lumps of play-doh** - but it's full color, plastic, and fairly durable, and she can even make new ones when her characters get sweet new gear.
I have no idea what the economics look like for producing and marketing something like this, but Paizo has plenty of good art already they could repurpose.
* On the upside, by the time you get your mini right, you've got versions on hand for enlarge person, shrink person, and blur.
** She's 30 years old, btw. Suppose I oughta mention that pre-emptively.
Yeah, I always wondered why they didn't produce paper minis or counters for all the Adventure paths.
That would be nice and should be profitable.
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Yeah, I always wondered why they didn't produce paper minis or counters for all the Adventure paths.
That would be nice and should be profitable.
I can't comment on the profitability of that idea but something that Firey Dragon did was make the JPG files of various critters and give the base (in PDF format) for free. That way, if you needed a Huge Owl Bear (gee, where did I get THAT idea from?:-)) you just put that jpg onto the Huge pdf and badda-bing...Huge Owl Bear!
Here is the link to show you all:http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=59450&filter s=100_0_2270_0&manufacturers_id=14
If Paizo could somehow partner with Firey Dragon (by the way Paizo staff, I am not teling you how to run your business) for the them to use the JPGS of Paizo's critters for something like this, I would not be against it!
Yeah, I always wondered why they didn't produce paper minis or counters for all the Adventure paths.
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Completely random thoughts after skimming this thread:
2) what's the feasibility of licensing Pathfinder to NECA to repurpose some of their new/old Mage Knight figs? While they are chunring out pre-painted plastics for their own line, they could drop some figs (even unpainted) into theme boxes (orcs, gobs, drakes, etc) with a "compatible with Pathfinder" label on them. Maybe even sell them exclusively through the Paizo online store to keep some revenue or just to test the market.
I would point out that while WotC has bailed from collectible minis, Wizkids 2.0, now a subsidiary of NECA, is still in the minis game.
This spring/summer will see the first of the Lord of the Rings sets released by Wizkids in the Clix line. Frankly, I'm expecting rather good things from this line, all of which should be HUGELY usable for the core PCs, NPCs, and monsters in any Pathfinder game.
If the line is a hit, it will only get bigger and better, and of course the crossovers from The Hobbit movies will be coming in 2 years or so too.
All by way of saying -- the collectible pre-painted plastic mini is an idea that is not going back in the bottle.
Tons of Middle Earth Elves, Dwarves, Hobbitses, Riders of Rohan, soldiers (and cavalry!) of Gondor, Orcs of the Tower, Uruk-hai, Trolls, Mumakil, Haradrim, Wargs, ghostly shades of pukel-men, and the Nazgul? Not to mention Gandalf and Saruman?
I'm looking forward to this one!
This spring/summer will see the first of the Lord of the Rings sets released by Wizkids in the Clix line. Frankly, I'm expecting rather good things from this line, all of which should be HUGELY usable for the core PCs, NPCs, and monsters in any Pathfinder game.
If only they'd reduce the size of the bases! :(
I've spent a LOT of time looking at making prepainted plastic miniatures and the ONLY way that MIGHT be able to do it in the future is the blind packed route. And a bunch of customers would be mad at that. So what to do?
In a nutshell: make sure the minis you make don't suck.
Do you really think we'd be mad if the "common" class minis were... common creatures? "Oh crap, another wolf. Now I've got three. That sucks so much." No, that's not upsetting. What is upsetting is getting your third scarab beetle swarm.
So here's a couple thoughts, Lisa.
First, I get it that different design minis will cost different amounts to make. Be careful that the cheaper, bulk minis are useful. Maybe make the wolves and generic soldiers and nameless goblins bland and simple. The paint jobs can have relatively few colours, and the molds can be low-detail, with few sticky-out-bits. We won't mind because those are mooks. We need lots of those, and it's okay that they're kind of crappy. Just don't make them things we'll never use.
Which brings us to the second point. Solicit the community as to what minis we'd like to see, both for the "common" class and the more "rare" classes. Ask us what we'll buy, and what we'll accept as kind of "filler" to subsidize the awesome "rare" minis.
Third and finally, I'd strongly recommend... don't view this is a long-term project. Don't expect to churn out a set of 60 new minis every six months. Instead, take a year or so to gather info from the community and plan one set of minis. A core set. Include the iconics, a couple medium and small dragons, a goblin boss, a gnoll boss, a couple mages, a couple fighter types, and a few other common monsters. Then fill it out with bulk zombies, skeletons, soldiers etc. Get a rough estimate of practicality and sales volume from our comments. Order a single run of X, where X is your expected sales plus a margin beyond that. Then, sell them. If you sell out, great. Monitor demand and - get this - maybe make a second batch of the core set. And a third batch. And a fourth. Keep milking the same molds as long as there's demand. And if demand is high enough, consider - only consider - adding a second set.
How many blind boxes do I have to open before I find Jodi^H^H^H^HAmiri? Doesn't matter. I'll keep opening boxes until I do.
Please understand the above paragraph is meant as humour, not creepy Internet stalker-guy talk.
NO DUNGEON DRESSING MINIS.
NO DUNGEON DRESSING MINIS.
You plundered the shrine of the Green Goddess at her ranch in the Hidden Valley. What did you expect to find?
Here are my thoughts.
Metal minis are heavy, and seem relatively fragile, where I know friends have knocked my plastic rares of the D&D collectables off the table to no harm. I'm obsessive compulsive & don't like the idea of needing to buy foam-packed cases to keep my minis from grinding each other smooth. Plus, I'm carrying enough weight with my D&D books.
D&D minis don't need to be assembled and painted. I'm clumsy with glue and precise assembly tools. Furthermore, I paint thick and gloppy, (impressionistic, if you will) and primer fumes give me headaches even in open areas (most anything fume-ish makes me sick in short order... couldn't take oil painting in college.)
I also feel like the metal minis are... well... usually more expensive... (except for ultra-rares and stuff like that.)
Anyway, those are my thoughts on why metal minis have been a non-starter for me.
NO DUNGEON DRESSING MINIS.You plundered the shrine of the Green Goddess at her ranch in the Hidden Valley. What did you expect to find?
The map to the Thousand Islands?
The map to the Thousand Islands?NO DUNGEON DRESSING MINIS.You plundered the shrine of the Green Goddess at her ranch in the Hidden Valley. What did you expect to find?
The recipe for the Green Goddess Hidden Valley salad with Thousand Island dressing?
Yeah, I always wondered why they didn't produce paper minis or counters for all the Adventure paths.There are some here already.
Yeah, and these are nice, but we need MORE!
Paperminis of the iconics - a "best of" from Bestiary + Bestiary II - famous Adv.Path Villains - ...
This spring/summer will see the first of the Lord of the Rings sets released by Wizkids in the Clix line. Frankly, I'm expecting rather good things from this line, all of which should be HUGELY usable for the core PCs, NPCs, and monsters in any Pathfinder game.If only they'd reduce the size of the bases! :(
An X-Acto knife, some superglue, and a bag of Warhammer bases will take care of that!
That's what I do with all my old "Combat Hex" LotR figs, which are very cool but have hugemongous bases. :)
-The Gneech
Metal minis are heavy, and seem relatively fragile
Yup. We use a combination of plastic and metal. Thing is... our metal ones are art. The paint isn't meant to be even lightly abused. Plastic can be knocked over and so on. Metal are beautiful, but not really ideal for heavy use.
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NO DUNGEON DRESSING MINIS.
Honestly? If there was a mini set that was ALL dungeon dressing? Chairs and tables and bars and barrels and crates and altars and benches and pews and braziers and campfires and tents and pavillions and tombs and sarcophogi...
I would buy three cases of that thing in a HEARTBEAT.
THAT would be something new -- and easily the most singularly useful mini product one could make. Think about it. Almost no matter WHAt scene you were depicting, this scenery would appear time and time again in your game. The monsters and NPCs may change, but the furninshings are ever=present.
For playing a minis game? Pretty crappy. For playing a medieval themed FRPG? Best. Set. Ever.
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This spring/summer will see the first of the Lord of the Rings sets released by Wizkids in the Clix line. Frankly, I'm expecting rather good things from this line, all of which should be HUGELY usable for the core PCs, NPCs, and monsters in any Pathfinder game.If only they'd reduce the size of the bases! :(
You can purchase D&D scaled black wooden bases. With an exacto knife and a bit of glue, you are good to go. It takes almost NO TIME to rebase these figures. Azmyth picked up a about 100 Horrorclix and rebased them all in an afternoon for use with Pathfinder and they look great.
NO DUNGEON DRESSING MINIS.Honestly? If there was a mini set that was ALL dungeon dressing? Chairs and tables and bars and barrels and crates and altars and benches and pews and braziers and campfires and tents and pavillions and tombs and sarcophogi...
I would buy three cases of that thing in a HEARTBEAT.
THAT would be something new -- and easily the most singularly useful mini product one could make. Think about it. Almost no matter WHAt scene you were depicting, this scenery would appear time and time again in your game. The monsters and NPCs may change, but the furninshings are ever=present.
For playing a minis game? Pretty crappy. For playing a medieval themed FRPG? Best. Set. Ever.
Have you checked out the MasterMaze line from Dwarven Forge? They have some Medieval Furniture (tables, chairs, tall torch holders) and Treasure (3 sizes of piles of copper, silver, and gold coins; armor; amphorae; chests) packs scaled for 28mm miniatures.
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In a nutshell: make sure the minis you make don't suck.
Do you really think we'd be mad if the "common" class minis were... common creatures? "Oh crap, another wolf. Now I've got three. That sucks so much." No, that's not upsetting. What is upsetting is getting your third scarab beetle swarm.
Depending on what scenario you're running, scarab beetles could be far more useful than wolves.
They can represent spell effects (Summon Swarm, Creeping Doom), as well.It seems like every man and his dog has made wolves over the years, in metal or plastic, and you can raid the toy store for animals if you really need them.
In a nutshell: make sure the minis you make don't suck.
Do you really think we'd be mad if the "common" class minis were... common creatures? "Oh crap, another wolf. Now I've got three. That sucks so much." No, that's not upsetting. What is upsetting is getting your third scarab beetle swarm.
Depending on what scenario you're running, scarab beetles could be far more useful than wolves.
They can represent spell effects (Summon Swarm, Creeping Doom), as well.
It seems like every man and his dog has made wolves over the years, in metal or plastic, and you can raid the toy store for animals if you really need them.
Yeah, but... how many damned War Apes can a campaign really use?
I know I'd settle for less minis per box if I knew what I was getting would be useful and more utilitarian.
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Yeah, but... how many damned War Apes can a campaign really use?
check out the last encounter of Mysts of Mwangi for that answer... i believe it calls for about 30 of them...
NO DUNGEON DRESSING MINIS.Honestly? If there was a mini set that was ALL dungeon dressing? Chairs and tables and bars and barrels and crates and altars and benches and pews and braziers and campfires and tents and pavillions and tombs and sarcophogi...
I would buy three cases of that thing in a HEARTBEAT.
Me too...well probably only 1 case but I'd buy a bunch anyway.
Yeah, but... how many damned War Apes can a campaign really use?
Go read the Serpent's Skull AP for all the ape goodness you can shake a stick at.
Have you checked out the MasterMaze line from Dwarven Forge? They have some Medieval Furniture (tables, chairs, tall torch holders) and Treasure (3 sizes of piles of copper, silver, and gold coins; armor; amphorae; chests) packs scaled for 28mm miniatures.
About twice the price I want to pay for this sort of thing. I looked at their tavern settings and it was in line with what I'm looking for - a couple of barrels, a couple of beds, a counter, a fruit bowl (not so useful) all for $35. so that's 6 items - I'd have liked to have gotten another miniature (so about 7 items) in there and only paid about $20.
About twice the price I want to pay for this sort of thing. I looked at their tavern settings and it was in line with what I'm looking for - a couple of barrels, a couple of beds, a counter, a fruit bowl (not so useful) all for $35. so that's 6 items - I'd have liked to have gotten another miniature (so about 7 items) in there and only paid about $20.
Have you checked out the MasterMaze line from Dwarven Forge? They have some Medieval Furniture (tables, chairs, tall torch holders) and Treasure (3 sizes of piles of copper, silver, and gold coins; armor; amphorae; chests) packs scaled for 28mm miniatures.
Yes, but the fruit bowl is actually a very clever mimic.
Yes, but the fruit bowl is actually a very clever mimic.I don't know that I'd want to be accosted by a fruity mimic.
You should have thought about that before you put your hand on its banana.
I think the pre-painted minature thing can be solved by redefining what the words Common, Uncommon and Rare means in terms of packaging. As some people already pointed out, gamers often need somewhere around 50 Orc warriors but only have a use for MAYBE 2 Fiendish Dire Rabbits. Keep the Sets small, and just have mulitples of the "common" figs in each box and also allow for duplication of the commons only. Also, I like the idea of only having one set come out a year. I realize that from a profitability standpoint it doesn't sound like it would be, but I know if I was guaranteed at least 3 minis per box that I need multiples of I would purchase at a minimum 1 case maybe more.
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MAYBE 2 Fiendish Dire Rabbits.
There he is!
Where?
There!
What? Behind the rabbit?
It *is* the rabbit!
You silly sod!
What?
You got us all worked up!
Well, that's no ordinary rabbit.
Ohh.
That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on!
You tit! I soiled my armor I was so scared!
Look, that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide! It's a killer!
Get stuffed!
He'll do you up a treat, mate.
Oh, yeah?
You manky Scots git!
I'm warning you!
What's he do? Nibble your bum?
He's got huge, sharp... er... He can leap about. Look at the bones!
Go on, Bors. Chop his head off!
Right! Silly little bleeder. One rabbit stew comin' right up!
<Runaway! Runaway!>
You should have thought about that before you put your hand on its banana.Yes, but the fruit bowl is actually a very clever mimic.I don't know that I'd want to be accosted by a fruity mimic.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!
(and to tie it in to the ubiquitous Monty Python referrence: "Run away! Run away!!")