Kingmaker makes use of all stats, especially Charisma. I would not drop it. If your GM lets you, I would recommend taking a look at the Kingmaker player's guide. There are a couple things that may change your thinking. My group is having issues because of who has various stats (internal politics vs optimization, and not everyone sees eye to eye). Don't want to say much more without a spoiler tag.
Trap spotter is not the best ability. It really depends on how much you remember to check for traps and how your GM runs perception rules. There are traps in Kingmaker, and some are deadly, but overall you may not see as much use out of this as you might like.
If I were a GM, I would not let the mithral breastplate fly without proficiency. I would probably take away evasion for it. I know there are not any actual rules against it, but it screems of cheese. I would clear this with your GM before planning for it.
I'm not sure how necessary Accrobatics is. You will see by the time you get there I suppose. You may want some other skill. I just recommend keeping your build fluid enough that it can change based off of what is necessary.
I think this rogue will be a fun and interesting character in the game.
Since third edition, it's been a bad idea to Min-Max a rogue.
It doesn't look like Pathfinder has changed this.
Also, maybe a celestial breastplate is light enough. It is built to be worn by flyers(Angels).
When you sneak attack you do 6D6 more.
You both get +2 to hit from the flanking.
You can also reach attack the evil wizard behind his meat shield, possibly ruining his/her/it's spell.
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I think a lot of people have thrown out some very good advice.
While I appreciate that you want a pure Rogue build, let me second the suggestion of 1 level of Ranger.
You'd only lose 2 skill points, and you get Martial Weapon Proficiency and Medium Armor Proficiency. Even with the Armour Expert trait, having Medium Armor Proficiency gives you some additional options early in your career (before you find yourself a mithril breastplate), like a regular masterwork breastplate (and being proficient with Medium Armor might fit well with a military background--same for the Martial Weapons Proficiency). The Martial Weapons Proficiency lets you use a range of polearms that are superior (in game mechanics) to the longspear. Plus, you'll be proficient with those armor spikes, so no -4.
You get a favored enemy that gives you a +2 to hit and damage, and skill bonuses (including to Bluff and Sense Motive). The higher hit die makes up for the loss of a favored class hp bonus for the one level, and you get a bump to your Reflex and Fortitude saves.
I'd also recommend either the Rake or the Thug archetype from the APG. You'll still be able to max out disable device, you won't be as good with traps, but you'll be better at using Intimidate in combat, and the Brutal Beating (Thug) is a pretty nice ability (especially since it only sacrifices 1d6 of your sneak attack damage). The Rake gets bonuses to Bluff and Diplomacy, so you'll make a better face character.
The Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses idea that was promoted also seems pretty solid.
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If you want to be the baron/count/duke/king in Kingmaker, do NOT dump Charisma!
I'm not really concerned that you will, but I want to support your decision to not do this. As a king, you will be expected to make Charisma rolls that are not modified by any skill modifier, and if you can do okay on them, the people will love you. A circlet of persuasion will go a long way here (it modifies all charisma-based rolls, and a straight charisma roll is definitely charisma-based!) if you can get one.
I'm not sure about your Power Attack at third level. While I do like it, and it's especially useful for attacking flat-footed enemies (who therefore have low AC), and I also like a sneak-attacking cleave, part of me thinks you'll have better luck with Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses.
If you want to be the baron/count/duke/king in Kingmaker, do NOT dump Charisma!
I'm not really concerned that you will, but I want to support your decision to not do this. As a king, you will be expected to make Charisma rolls that are not modified by any skill modifier, and if you can do okay on them, the people will love you. A circlet of persuasion will go a long way here (it modifies all charisma-based rolls, and a straight charisma roll is definitely charisma-based!) if you can get one.
I'm not sure about your Power Attack at third level. While I do like it, and it's especially useful for attacking flat-footed enemies (who therefore have low AC), and I also like a sneak-attacking cleave, part of me thinks you'll have better luck with Weapon Focus/Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses.
I agree on the power attack. Wait until you have more bonuses to hit. I love playing rogues but it is hard enough to hit at low levels without taking penalties in the hope you will do a couple more points of dmg.
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Additional Traits(Courageous, Indomitable Faith) are always useful to beef up those saves against mind-effecting. And Iron Will of course. Perhaps even consider taking levels in the Master Spy-prestige class once you are past level 10 to further boost that all-important Will. Advanced talents are godly, but once you get the class feature, they can afterwards be gained via Extra Talent-feats.
I like it that you are defending pure rogues. I get what people mean about multi-classing giving them a lot and I really like barbarian/rogues(especially dwarf ones) and monk/rogues, but those advanced talents are great and massive amount of skill points makes sure the class can contribute throughout a campaign.
I'm a bit leery about strength rogues, because they usually go Power Attack and then hunger for + to hits for the rest of their scoundrelly lives, but a single weapon rogue really doesn't have other options than a hulking two-handed weapon or the flying talon(finesse, reach). To help with getting those hits through, talk with your melee companion so that you both pick up that Teamwork Feat: Outflank, which buffs the flanking bonus. And of course, ask for buffs. You need that heroism, just like the fighter needs that Iron Will.
Go for what feels right, don't let the crowd get you down.
Well advice aside, I think that you could use a mithril breast plate but you would take the non proficient penalties. Due to the argument. . . I would suggest you read and use elven chain, which specifically states it uses light proficiency. etc etc..
Cha should be your primary dump stat, I would think int adds skill points that you could put in your cha build skills.
I wouldnt get cleave, perhaps a Mighty Cleaving weapon to free up a feat. As well as getting a speed weapon at some point.
I would try to work towards a feat goal and plan your feats in that order. I think that the skill focus - acrobatics and dodge and mobility are to much.
1: Combat Expertise
2 (talent): Weapon Training (Long Spear)
3: Gang-Up
4 (talent): Minor Magic (0) spell detect magic...
5: Combat Reflexes
6 (talent): Major Magic (1) Enlarge Person
7: Dodge
8 (talent): Bleeding Strike
9: Mobility
10 (advanced talent): Dispelling Attack
11: Combat Patrol
12 (advanced talent): Oppurtunsit
I am not sure if you have the advanced player guide. Those would be the feats I would use. With Gang-Up, Combat patrol, enlarge person the 25Ft reach with 2 allies basing the foe equals in 6d6 sneak attack as well as conditional dispell or 6 point bleed. I would urge your fighter to get a greater combat manuever feat shield bash etc, that provides AOO's.
Some arguments could me made about just using a wand or something for the enlarge person spell. I personally think Dispelling attack is a game changer.
I am not trying to give a negative critque just offering advice. The best pure rogue, spear fighter I could think of.
Thread in a nutshell/ITT: Original poster finding out that everyone has a slightly different idea on what constitutes a proper rogue.
Rogues? Proper? I thought they were rogues because they were not proper.
Should note that stats increased via items do NOT effect feat requirements.
Urgathoa approves of your post.
The rest of us wonder about the purpose of your thread necromancy. After more than two years, they've probably finished their build. :)-TimD
If the OP is looking into being the face of the group why are you telling him to take an 8 CHA?
If the OP is looking into being the face of the group why are you telling him to take an 8 CHA?
Unless he's going to keep all the charisma skills maxed regardless, then extra skill points will outweigh the ability mod given sufficient levels.
I'm considering making a long spear weilding rogue for our upcoming Kingmaker campaign. (We're nearing the end of Mother of Flies in CoT.) The rest of the party currently looks like a fighter, sorcerer, and druid.
I'd like to be a combination of melee support for the fighter, and face for the party.
We're currently slated for 20 point buy. Just Pathfinder books. I'm going human since they are plentiful, and get the extra skill point and bonus feat.
I've never used a reach weapon melee combatant before, so the long spear isn't negotiable ;)
I'm not interested in multi-classing either. I'd like to show that a pure rogue is a viable choice. No one in our group has ever done one.
Str 14 (5 pts) + 2 Human stat bonus = 16
Dex 14 (5 pts)
Con 14 (5 pts)
Int 10 (0 pts)
Wis 12 (2 pts)
Cha 13 (3 pts)At level 4, up charisma. All further stat bonuses to strength. All favoured class bonuses as hit points.
Human bonus feat: Improved Initiative
1: Combat Reflexes
2 (talent): Weapon Training (Long Spear)
3: Power Attack
4 (talent): Combat Trick (Cleave)
5: Skill Focus Acrobatics
6 (talent): Resiliency
7: Dodge
8 (talent): ?
9: Mobility
10 (advanced talent): Opportunist
11: Acrobatic
12: (advanced talent): Crippling StrikeNo clue past level 12.
Starting Skills:
Acrobatics
Perception
Stealth
Diplomacy
Bluff
Intimidate
Knowledge Local
Disable Device
Sense MotiveI'm going to need acrobatics to deal with people inside my threat range, so I'm not sure if I should try to get skill focus earlier. However that means shifting something else to later...
We are using traits:
Armour Expert (with the 1 point reduction of armour check penalty, I can wear a mithral breastplate without needing armour proficiency medium)Noble Born - House Medvyed (+2 diplomacy with fey, and +1 will vs fey spells and super natural abilities)
Concept:
This guy had a mixed bag of education growing up. He was in the military, but his family couldn't afford an officer's commission, so...
If you really want to prove the rogue as a viable choice then my reccommendation would be to avoid trying to build him like a fighter. Being limited to light armor means that focusing on strength instead of dex will limit your survivability. While power attack is a good source for damage, the thing you lack most compared to the other martial classes is accuracy. Missing a hit due to power attack costs sneak attack damage. If you are set on taking power attack I reccommend you also take Furious Focus and then look into branching off into spring attack. With Spring Attack you can move to flank whereever needed and land a sneak attack. With the scout archetype you can position and strike without relying on flanking for the sneak attack.
One thing you can do is to drop the skill focus in acrobatics and take skill focus diplomacy instead. That gives a nice, scaling bonus (kicks up to +6 at tenth level) and will allow you to sacrifice some points in Charisma in favor of another state.
I'm playing a cleric in a pbp game right now who spread out her ability scores pretty widely, but she's still got some killer skill bonuses because she invested in skill-boosting feats. Your character will be just as much a leader, but he'll be someone who learned how to lead, instead of having it come naturally to him (which kind of fits the "enlisted man" background, actually).