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To everyone saying level 11+ on the barb, no. This was dpr at level 7. I could see this as more reasonable dpr going into the teens, but not at something that barely qualifies as mid level.
If i remember correctly (could be wrong), the +23 was a non power-attack rage, PA, would add another +6 to this with the 2h weapon.
So...
2d6 great sword
2d6 vicious
+29
Max damage per hit = 53
3 hits (haste) max damage = 159* edited to add damage calculations
So your assuming that the barbarian rolls 24 on 4d6 often then...
Also I think your or the player math maybe off if your thinking of +23 damage before power attack...like you know the impossible 23 ac at level 1.
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Honestly, i threw a lot of touch spells at the party at low level, so didn't bother checking the ac to closely. It is expected in our group to follow the rules as close as possible.
His first few levels were with a tower shield and a 1h, before he switched to "damage and nothing else matters". I think maybe 22 max at first level for a barb, but the ac wasn't worth arguing at the time.
You mean the tower shield he isn't proficient with...remember what I said about not playing by the rules....
Hello everyone, and welcome to a discussion of something that has bothered me for a long time, boh as a player and a GM. I plan on doing several of these posts on different subjects, so i would appreciate it if we could stay focused on the subject of each individual thread.
Today we will be discussing ability scores, specifically, scores at character creation.
To start things off, let me tell you a bit about the group i play with. For about 6 years, we have had a core group of players, with a fluctuating "final spot". The core group all gets along pretty well, but we always seem to drive away/kick out that last player and find a new one.
The problem is that we are all more focused on role-playing, and the last player always is a power gamer. In the situation of ability scores, these players always build a character with an 18, some mid range stats, and at least one "dump stat". We have done different ability score generation, but it always ends up the same.
Point buy: dump 2 stats to 7, max out the key scores
Dice pool: 4 stats with 3 dice, distribute extras in key scores
Standard roles: well, it's standard, hard to power game it, but i can tell you what roll is going in charisma...I will point out before i get flamed for it, we have had "power campaigns" before. For example, one was with 3 book of nine swords characters and a mystic theurge for arcane/healing. The point is, however, is everyone agreed beforehand, that we were going to power game. We were playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, a dungeon crawl that we more affectionately refer to as "The Meat Grinder"
Anyway, what this tends to lead to, is that we have a front line putting out ridiculous damage or a caster with ridiculous unmakeable save dc's. Currently we have an 8th level barbarian on one set of characters, who averages 50+ dmg on a full attack, highest was 83 dmg with haste up. Best average damage output by any other member of the group is 15 or so. The main problem here is that anything that is a threat to the...
Well, what is powergaming to one group is a typical character to another, and I would have to know more about the character builds in question and the typical encounters your group faces. Someone has probably already asked for this since I have not gotten past the first post.
PS:Powergaming and RP'ing can both be done at the same time. Neither subtracts from the other.PS2:If the best average output on a full round attack is 15 at level 8 then your group has below average encounters even for an "average" game, and any player would probably be considered a powergamer. I don't think you or the "powergamer" is doing it wrong, but you just may have incompatible playstyles. I do think 83 is a lot for an 8th level barbarian to average, but 15 can be done by a low level character(below 5th).
On the other hand, if the said half-orc his answering to every enigmas, always searching secret doors, using sense motive against every NPCs, using metagame information to win some encounters and crafting devious and complex traps outside of battle, then the player is not roleplaying the stats of his character.This is more or less what I'm talking about... Maybe not to that extent, but yes.
Personally, I'm against counting squares on the grid before droping a fireball. Period. I know the birds eye view with a battle grid gives the feel like your playing a video game with satellite grid lines for targeting, but come on barbarian, stop telling everyone where to stand so the fire ball hits every enemy while missing every friendly... Just throw a dice down and start calculating squares based on your chosen grid intersection.
Maybe as the caster you should be doing this in between turns, but not as the barbarian, just pick something and attack it IMO ( that is, if your have dump stats in your int/wis )
A High School quaterback can hit a running wide receiver 50+ yards down the field while he is being covered. The window the football has to get through is about 1 square foot or less. The entire time the other team is trying to put the QB on his back. My point is that the human brain is good at math. Having a caster be able to drop a spell in an exact square in a world where humanoids are far better than we are should not cause suspension of belief.
You mean the tower shield he isn't proficient with...remember what I said about not playing by the rules....
@Cold Napalm: I believe that you might be missing the problem here. It is not a matter of the exact mechanics of things. There may well be an underlying issue here in the play-style of the 'core' group, but that isn't the issue that was presented.
These guys are a group of people who game more by a set of unspoken rules about how things should interact in their games than by absolute rules written in the official material.
Rather than berate Elven Blades for not running a game that would not meet the criteria that you (and admittedly myself) hold for the rules, we should look at how we can help him reconcile this.
@Elven Blades: Cold Napalm is right. It makes it hard for outside observers to sympathize with your situation, when the information you share makes it look like your game is more open to abuse than the standard rules. You and your 'core' playgroup have clearly figured out what is and isn't okay by your own sense of how it should all work out, and these rotating cast members just aren't as familiar.
I still understand the situation quite well, having played in the disaster I mentioned in my previous post, but we were playing with some HIGHLY abusable house rules, and one guy just didn't get the memo that we were supposed to use an honor system and not abuse them. Maybe you should consider how your house rules (if any) are playing into this.
Or maybe he is just adjusting to the scale of the game and how you like to play. I know that the times I have tried playing with other groups I find myself shocked at how 'poorly' they adhere to the rules and yet somehow, I end up coming across as a power-gamer. This is specifically because I take interest in the nuances of their house rules, and miss the overlying point of how they envision what actual game play looks like.
Maybe ask him what he hopes to gain from playing the character he has rolled up, and let him know what the rest of you hope to gain with your characters. Sometimes the meta-answer will help everyone figure out how the party can fit together well.
What is power gaming
Posting and editing so this responses will come right under wraithstrike
It varies depending on who you ask but to me powergaming is making the most powerful character you can within the rules without trying to find loopholes that the designers did not intend to work.
Full BAB melee characters often do a lot of damage because they are not normally good for anything else though.
PS:I skipped a few post so if I am duplicating information I apologize in advance.
An idea at a 'solution' could include an "interview" and "date night" where you sit down, spell out your house rules and what the player expects in a game, and then him watching the group play once without playing himself so he can get a feel for your rules and play type.
I generally like to watch a new group a time or three before I play with them just so I can get a feel for their style -- that way I can help avoid over doing it or under doing it by their standards.
If it's a table I find I don't agree with -- I can simply walk away with no feelings hurt as well.
Sound to me, like it is more of a play style issue than anything. One player wants one style of game play and the rest want something else. There is nothing wrong with optimized, though it is good if they make sense and just don't take the best of all.
In my experience when this becomes a issue is, what is a challenge for the one character is very hard for the rest. What is a challenge for the rest is a joke for him. The last game I played with such a character was set in the Iron Kingdoms in 3.5 DnD.
The character was
Ogrin fighter/Barb(think half ogre) - with his stats and 2h weapon he could do as much damage in one round as the rest of us combined.Human Thief - my character
Gobber Cleric (think goblin)
Human Gun Mage (partial caster that can enhance guns with magic, IK has guns)
The fights tended to be a joke, the GM ramped up the bad guys and added more. The Ogrin would kill most and the rest of us would combine for finish off the rest. It worked until a fighter where the Ogrin player just had ungodly bad luck, misses, fumbles, etc and he dropped with out hardly doing any damage. End result was a TPK cause the rest of us couldn't fight them. Each of the rest of us was each dropped in 1 or 2 rounds and unable only dropped one more of the 5 mobs.
No I am only sharing the story for the OP see he can see what happened with my group in a situation like that.
There is nothing wrong with optimized characters but they tend not to mix well with characters who spread themselves out to be well rounded and not great at anything.
Nice story. I wish MDT was here. He posted something that covered the original poster's problem perfectly recently. I will try and remember what I can without the math.
Like Dark_Mistress, I think you are dealing more with a play style issue. If your group is having fun with a X number of damage output and someone joins that does a significantly less or significantly more damage out put, than they are under/overpowered for YOUR group. It doesn't matter how optomized or un optomized the character is, they do not fit in. Unless you want to be like The Mistress in Red's example, and play in a group that stand behind and watches.
Talk to the player, be honest. Say "Hey buddy, we really don't wanna lose you as a player, but our comfort level for this campaign has weaker combat stat'ed characters. I would like to take some time with you, and see what we can do about lowering your character's combat effectiveness to match the rest of the group." If he is willing, and will still have fun... AWESOME. If not, and his play style takes away the fun from the rest, then some hard choices are gonna have to be made.
I really don't see this as Roleplay vs Rollplay or RP vs Opti. Once again, I see it as the Dark_Mistress said, it is a play style thing.
Have fun.
Greg
Partially right wraithstrike, but the rotating "last slot" always seems to end up with the gamer you outlined, + he finds every loophole available
To draino, we nearly across the board disallow house rules, unless and until we find the proper ruling on something. We may not have asked the player in question what he hopes to accomplish with his character, but we have made it clear, perhaps not in the friendliest of manners, that he is not playing to out expectations.
What loopholes have been found?
If a barbarian can not hurt things what is it supposed to do?He probably has no social skills. He can't buff. He can't pick locks. If you are going to use monsters weak enough that 15 hp per round is sufficient damage you may have to ban the full bab classes.
He can still only kill on creature at a time, so having several of them will give the others things to do.
PS:How long do you intend for a typical combat to last? For most groups it is about 3 rounds.
If I knew that I would get the opponent without getting my friend? Yes. Which is the case with fireball -- it's not a grenade, it's an exact placement of a 40 foot sphere and nothing more (since it doesn't go beyond the area of the spell) -- this has more to do with "realism" in the game though than the placement of the spell -- I would expect IRL that a fireball going off five feet in front of you would scorch you some -- yet in pathfinder I can place it so that exact thing happens -- and you are prefectly ok. I wouldn't expect someone to shoot 6+ arrows (or a scattergun!) at someone in melee with me either but we don't get after the archer for doing just that in pathfinder (even when he has to shoot over my shoulder to hit the target).
I agree with you, this is how it works. I just always found strange that, in 3.X (not sure about PF) you could accidentally shoot your friend if he was in melee with an opponent that you missed with a ranged attack by 4 or less, but it was safe to use a fireball. Let's end this off-topic discussion shall we? :)
If I may, I have played with roughly the same people for the last 9 years. At the start I was focused mostly on the mechanics of the game and making a big powerful character. Gradually my perspective changed and I started enjoying making more complex character. By the sounds of it you have 3 people that are playing in that realm, however, if you keep removing "problem" players they will never hit that plateau.
My suggestion, let him dominate. Let him mop up in combat in 2 rounds. Make it boring for him. Don't stick straight to a pre-conceived adventure, write in oodles of side quests and hooks for the various PC's that DO have information and personality. This will lead to:
a)him "adapting" to the idea of a more flavorful character
or
b)the other PC's becoming even "worse" at combat as they just let him mop up encounters and have fun out of them
Honestly you are approaching the situation from a jaded angle that leads to a lot of in fighting and suspicious glances. There's really no need.
One of the guys at the table who is a friend of mine has the character personality of a sedimentary stone, and all his characters are tactical geniuses that chase skirts, another always purposely attempts to be terrible so he can moan at how bad his character is, even though he picked everything on his character sheet. Doesn't bother me, because I know what to expect from them, and how to use their strengths and weaknesses to enhance the fun I have at the table.
@Elven_Blades You said you don't have many house rules. I would immagine though, much like my group, you have many of those unspoken houserules that Abraham Spalding spoke of. Characters have to have more depth. Something along the lines of my sorceror grew up at an inn, and helped her family run it. So the sorcy picks up some ranks in profession cook and might even have some points in swim, because he often would go to the nearby pond and swim with his otter familiar. or somesuch. Over all, no one really wants a negative in an attribute, unless it is a "character defining flaw". So most stats at least have a ten, and often have a twelve.
Maybe your group is like mine, and there is no such thing as 4 encounter day... or you do not bother with wealth by level. Maybe your wizard's do not scribe scrolls every day. Or your to craft, you require magic components that can drain resources in towns. ( so crafting is limited to how many rakshasa eye's one may find or somesuch) Maybe combat rounds last upwards of a full minute!?! They do in mine. Granted, many players would have NO fun in my group's games. But that is our playstyle. So if someone were to join, we would have to explain these things. But before reading these forums as much as I do, I never would even have thought these were issues or house rules. I was stunned the first time I heard that the Leadership provided NPC's were made by the PC. WHA!?!!? I shared this with my group and they are still wary of the "dark magic". :P OH, and the big Six as such doesn't exist in our games. Couldn't name em if I tried. Maybe three of em.
But these are all house rules of sorts. And when a person asks us what our playstyle is and we say "roleplaying" we are doing them and us a disservice. My group needs to take greater care and time to explain OUR style to new players.
Maybe your group does too. That way, when you find someone, it will be someone that wants to play the way you do.
Greg
As for damage output and rounds, i would say that i like an average of 4-7 rounds, with BBEGs lasting 7-12. While I admit 15 dpr is low in and around the level 10 area, i think 25-35 would reasonable based on the play styles of the non PG players of the group.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the barb should do nothing. I just don't opwant him to potentially one-round a BBEG cuz he happened to get 2 crits on his full attack. At the same time I don't want to make a BBEG that could survive a double crit from him, since anything that strong could likely one-shot any other party member, and maybe even the barb too. Of course, this above example is unlikely to be a problem above, say, level...
You're treading dangerous ground. AC amping will lead to all the issues you are experiencing with group anger. Try playing around with enemies with LOWER hitpoints and annoying miss chance abilities. Combat is more about dice rolling and luck than actual powergaming at that point. Pugwampi wizards with mirror image, displacement, or blur would lead to a few howls of laughter around the table, especially if they weren't that big of threat to actually hurt your party that bad, and they infested pretty much everything
4-7 rounds is a long time. This guy probably is used to a DM whose monsters have a greater chance of killing him the longer they stay alive. It might be a hard sell to allow the enemies to live longer, but it is worth a try.
If you want enemies to last extra rounds you may want to ban Full BAB classes. Even a mediocre one would shine in your group, and that is without 3.5 splat. You may also want to ban SoD/SoS spells for campaigns where the group agrees to play weaker characters.
Offtopic:Why do you feel like you have to play weaker characters to RP?
PS:Answer this at the end of the thread. I don't want to derail the current one.
edit:added the word "probably"
4+ rounds is certainly long by most groups standards, i suppose thats a preference more than anything. I just like playing a low dpr, high defense character. Preference aside, I don't think most players would be happy if one character countinually ends combat in one round before anyone else can perform any strategies they have designed for their characters. I don't want to have to specifically go through the rules and line item ban anything, i simply request that my players try to keep themselves at even levels of power, for everyones enjoyment. Somewhere in the middle of the power scale, not the high end, not the low end.
I don't think you need a weak character to have an RP character, but at the same time, you don't need your character to be a god to have fun either.
As for being used to monsters that have a better kill chance the longer they stay around, not really. The other dms inn my group don't have especially complex monsters, and 4+ rounds is a very long combat below level 10, just a matter of preference towards longer than average combats. I especially like combats that start with a few enemies then, then a few more show up, then a few more, then the boss shows up while 1/4 to 1/2 are still alive.
The average level 8 monster has 100 hit points, and normally can not stand toe to toe with a full BAB character of an equal level. If if the barbarian dropped his DPR he would still kill it in two rounds most likely. If the only thing a certain class can do is hit thing hard then the monsters that are being killed easily have to go* or the class does. I have no idea what type of monsters you fight so can I have a description of an actual battle?
The DM may have to alter the way he runs combat.*Go in this instance can mean be removed or altered.
As for the monster being on the field longer. He is a threat every round he is alive. He can always score a crit or a few of them can crit back to back. Now if the DM fudges dice to keep players alive then you are right then it won't matter how long they are on the screen.
PS:I think in the future you should tell the new players how you run your games, and that X amount of damage is not what you want to see. If it is easy for you to find new groups then the new player should be able to find a new group also.
PS2:Even levels of power is hard to judge when everyone does a different thing well. If it means same HP damage then you can't do it with a Full BAB class unless he intentionally gimps his character.
8th level fighter <---ok fighter
1Weapon Focus (longsword)
1 Iron Will
2B Lunge
3 Improved Iron Will
4B Weapon Spec(longsword
5 Power Attack
6B Step Up
7 Toughness
8B Vital Strike
Str 18(14 base, 2 levels, 2 belt)
Dex 12
Con 16(14 base, 2 belt)
Int 11
Wis 12(12 base ,2 headband)
Cha 9
Attack bonus(8 BAB, 4 strength , +3 Weapon, +1 class ability, +1 Weapon Focus)= +19/14
Damage(6 from strength, 3 from weapon, 1 Weapon Spec, 1 feat)=1d8+11
Power Attacking +16/11, 1d8+17
Hasted +17/+17/+12 1D8+17
If all 3 attacks hit that is 51 points of damage before dice are rolled. I started off with a 14 in strength, and if I posted this as a character build many would laugh it off the boards.
My point is there is no way to expect 15 points from a full BAB character without making it weak on purpose. Most of us play fantasy game to do what we can't do in real life. That is why I said earlier if low damage is the order of the day then banning certain classes may be in order.
I would allow the player to choose another class if he still wished to play with the group because otherwise there is no reason to be a barbarian from a mechanical point of view.
darn, i was ninjaed by wraithstrike about people playing fantasy games to do stuff that normally cannot in the real world.
and before you get on the barbarians player giving the wizard's player tips on how to properly aim the fireball ofr the most effect.
read this.
the barbarian is not giving the wizard advice
it's Bob the Gamer giving his less informed buddy Sam some advice.
Bob is smarter than his barbarian and playing dumb is pretty difficualt, Sam is nowhere near as smart as his wizard is and Bob cannot match Sams wizard either. all that is happening is Bob is helping his buddy Sam think up something he didn't see that his wizard would most likely have thought of doing anyway.
The barbarian does more damage than the rest of the party...
Tell me, are the rest of the party members one-trick ponies with absolutely no contribution to the game beyond damage? Being surprised that a barbarian outdamages a rogue by quite a bit is similar to being surprised that a heavy-weight champion is able to beat up a lightweight champion in the world of boxing.
Also noticed he has a viscous sword at lv8. That is pretty spiffy.
Let me compare to the lv7 party I play in:
These numbers are after the following buffs: Warrior of Holy Light Aura, Blessing of Fervor and prayer, which we use pretty much all the time.
The archer-type ranger deals (with Gravity Bow) 2d6+9/hit, with four attacks (rapid + blessing) and manyshot that's 10d6+45 for an average of 80 if he hits on all attacks. This is NOT against favored enemies. He started with an 18 in dex, 14 str and just took archer-appropriate feats. His bow is a basic +1.
My switch-hitter paladin deals 1d10+15/hit in melee (power attacking 2H), with three attacks, that's 3d10+45 for an average of 61. With a bow he does 1d8+10/hit and can fire 4 arrows for 4d8+40 (58 avg). This is NOT smiting.
Of course, the cleric can melee for 2 attacks at 1d4+3 (avg 11) or so if he chooses to attack physically, and the rogue/wizard can sneak-attack twice for 6d6+4 (avg 25). But those two get to do a whole lot of other stuff while me and the ranger pretty much just hurt stuff.
The barbarian does more damage than the rest of the party...
Tell me, are the rest of the party members one-trick ponies with absolutely no contribution to the game beyond damage? Being surprised that a barbarian outdamages a rogue by quite a bit is similar to being surprised that a heavy-weight champion is able to beat up a lightweight champion in the world of boxing.
Also noticed he has a viscous sword at lv8. That is pretty spiffy.
Let me compare to the lv7 party I play in:
These numbers are after the following buffs: Warrior of Holy Light Aura, Blessing of Fervor and prayer, which we use pretty much all the time.The archer-type ranger deals (with Gravity Bow) 2d6+9/hit, with four attacks (rapid + blessing) and manyshot that's 10d6+45 for an average of 80 if he hits on all attacks. This is NOT against favored enemies. He started with an 18 in dex, 14 str and just took archer-appropriate feats. His bow is a basic +1.
My switch-hitter paladin deals 1d10+15/hit in melee (power attacking 2H), with three attacks, that's 3d10+45 for an average of 61. With a bow he does 1d8+10/hit and can fire 4 arrows for 4d8+40 (58 avg). This is NOT smiting.
Of course, the cleric can melee for 2 attacks at 1d4+3 (avg 11) or so if he chooses to attack physically, and the rogue/wizard can sneak-attack twice for 6d6+4 (avg 25). But those two get to do a whole lot of other stuff while me and the ranger pretty much just hurt stuff.
From what I read the OP's party intentionally builds weaker characters, and they like longer combats. I would just build normal character(the party), and give monsters extra hit points. That way new players that make normal characters can do their thing, and the party still gets longer battles.
Actually, he ignores wealth by level. So your assumed magic items may not be available. So the character may still be okay. This build would work fine in my games. In fact, it is just a lil' weaker.
Greg
From what I read the OP's party intentionally builds weaker characters, and they like longer combats. I would just build normal character(the party), and give monsters extra hit points. That way new players that make normal characters can do their thing, and the party still gets longer battles.
Sooo... they're playing 4e D&D?
Actually, he ignores wealth by level. So your assumed magic items may not be available. So the character may still be okay. This build would work fine in my games. In fact, it is just a lil' weaker.
Greg
Thanks. I did not read all of the threads. Ignoring wealth by level is a good way to accidentally get supercharacter. It is probably better to stay under the wealth level if everyone wants weaker characters. I know the party won't have an issue, but it keeps new people in check.
I considered the build to be ok, but not optimized. It was mainly a quick build to show the OP my point. :)
Advice to get more than 4 encounters per day:
2) if the party goes into said place and then bails out after 2 or 3 encounters have the monsters come after them, good tactics.
3) Give them a reason to not walk away like some sort of time limit.
others to follow
There are several dozen ways to deal with a barbarian. From what I read, he seems like a melee brute. Use flyers, ranged combatants, spellcasters and so forth, mix it up.
Do not allow him to close and full-attack easily: Difficult terrain, obstacles and so forth. Enemies usually have the benefit of being on their home turf.
It is because of these glaring weaknesses that he is so good at what he does. When a bruiser gets a full-attack on you, you're SUPPOSED to die.
I cannot even imagine HOW you go about making a full-bab character with an output as pathetic as 15-20/rd at lv8. My paladin can do that with his bare hands just from having a Str of 18 (with a belt+2) and power attack. And I went for versatility, not all out melee damage, like a barbarian does by default.
It seems to me that people have forgotten that if something unbalances their game or makes less fun for the majority the Gm and group have the right to say no. You don't like massive damage output from character or another then limit magic shops. What happens to a Power Gamer when the magic shop is ruled out? Optimised dosen't hurt most games, abuse does. Somehow it has become the player is always right and you must give them what they want. I needs to be give them what they need,which isn't always what they want.
In the end we all want to have fun, shine a little, and experience a little thrill of imagined danger or intrigue. If there is play type that fails to allow this with your group, then let the player know or seek one out from the beginning that likes your style. Power players should play with power GMs and so on and so forth. The tools are endless. I re-read the 2nd ed. DM guide the other day and a lot of the material covered party balance and preventing abuse of the system. Things are different now and seem to require some level of PGing in the APs just lookat the iconics, they all have a dumpstat. This seems to only matter if RP is the goal.
If they want dump stats in your game, then make them deal with that decision. A low stat can always be used to one's advantage or disadvantage. Gear cost more or they can't buy at all from a particular vendor if they dump Cha. They same can apply to nearly any other stat. All you have to do is take away what makes dumping a stat a viable option.
Honestly, i threw a lot of touch spells at the party at low level, so didn't bother checking the ac to closely. It is expected in our group to follow the rules as close as possible.
His first few levels were with a tower shield and a 1h, before he switched to "damage and nothing else matters". I think maybe 22 max at first level for a barb, but the ac wasn't worth arguing at the time.
Wait he had a tower shield and survived the first few levels? wait wait he is an optimizer and he took a tower shield?? No one I have ever played with has survived the -4 to hit and -10acp, any water and goodbye barbarian.
On topic though, he doesn't sound so bad, the rest of you should be having more roleplaying problems then him. From what I have been reading, before he showed up, you guys would have spent more time surviving then roleplaying.
Nothing your character picks as options affect role-playing in any way, this is a common misconception. Someone with an 18 in every stat can still role-play any type of character they'd like. What does a 7 in charisma have to do with role-playing? Are we going to make the guy with 26 STR roll every time he shakes someones hand to see if he accidentally breaks it?
Stats and feats and spells already come with all the bonus and penalties they apply, none of it affects how someone portrays there character around the gaming table.
It seems to me the only fix that needs to be applied is that you ask him what kind of person his character is out of game, and inquire about his character in game. (I notice a lot of people skip adventurer introductions, how does this random band of people know each other?)
Wait he had a tower shield and survived the first few levels? wait wait he is an optimizer and he took a tower shield?? No one I have ever played with has survived the -4 to hit and -10acp, any water and goodbye barbarian.
DM: Your barbarian falls into the water. Due to his tower shield, he's a goner. No way to avoid drowning with that -10 armor check penalty.
Player: Uh, I let go of the shield.
DM: ....
My suggestion, let him dominate. Let him mop up in combat in 2 rounds. Make it boring for him. Don't stick straight to a pre-conceived adventure, write in oodles of side quests and hooks for the various PC's that DO have information and personality. This will lead to:a)him "adapting" to the idea of a more flavorful character
He's a Barbarian. What the hell do you people expect him to do out of combat ANYWAY?
While I admit 15 dpr is low in and around the level 10 area, i think 25-35 would reasonable based on the play styles of the non PG players of the group.
What. The. Hell.
NO ONE is going to fit into your group. NO. ONE. That is not a good target for level 10 as a damage per round output. The Rogue sneak attacking should defeat that with no effort. Hell, the Rogue NOT Sneak Attacking should be able to exceed that. No full BAB class is going to gimp themselves enough to join your party of pig farmers doing amazing things. I, personally, would highly suggest you switch to a more role-playing focused system.I just like playing a low dpr, high defense character.
Perhaps your group Wizard should roll a Knowledge check and tell you that full-out defense is ALWAYS a losing strategy. Eventually, the monsters will overcome anything but the most absurdly high defenses, and at that point, you won't be hitting them.
He's a Barbarian. What the hell do you people expect him to do out of combat ANYWAY?
My suggestion, let him dominate. Let him mop up in combat in 2 rounds. Make it boring for him. Don't stick straight to a pre-conceived adventure, write in oodles of side quests and hooks for the various PC's that DO have information and personality. This will lead to:a)him "adapting" to the idea of a more flavorful character
30 things for barbarians to do on their days off
1. Compete in local tournaments of skill and strength(Acrobatics,fighting prowess, barbarian speed increase and strength)
2. Learn to be a shingle runner(Acrobatics)
3. Cross country runs filled with homo-erotic tension with your battle brothers.(Acrobatics)
4. Carousing and Wenching( forts saves)
5. Repair the church roof (climb craft)
6. Climb an unconquered mountain (acrobatics, climb, god con and fort save for altitude)
7. Build a longship (craft: shipwright)
8. Reforge you fathers sword and quench it in the hearts blood of his slayer, the wyvern broken fang.(craft: weapons, craft magic weapons and armour and master craftsman)
9. Reforge your mothers maiden shield and maiden sword so that you might smite down the vile wizard who killed her.(craft: weapons & craft: armour, craft magic weapons and armour and master craftsman)
10. Brew ales, whiskeys and meads, to keep away the winter cold and ward of the winter blues(craft: brewing)
11. Brew ales, whiskeys and meads so strong the dwarves choke on them, and use them to fuel your rage and warrior spirit.(One level witch dip for cauldren, brew potions in the form of alcohol for consumption in and before battle)
12. Train a pack of fierce hunting hounds.(Handle animal)
13. Train a dog sled team.(Handle animal)
14. Brake a wild horses.(Handle animal)
15. Racketeer.(intimidation)
16. Kill of competing offers of reasonably prices protection(combat
prowess and intimidation)
17. Scare of racketeers harassing your favourite pub.(intimidation)
18. Defend your favourite pub from racketeer reprisals (combat prowess and intimidation)
19. Collect information on useful folk remedies for the shaman back home(Knowledge: nature)
20. bird watching (Knowledge: nature)
21. Learn about local farming techniques so that you can return home with something that will help your tribe for generations to come.
22. Write a bestiary of the creatures of your home land(Knowledge: nature)
23. Grow infatuated with the land lords daughter as she draws water from the pump each morning (Perception)
24. Spot group of rowdy patrons menacing the land lords daughter and clobber them.(Perception)
25. Racing your newly broke while horse in the county steeple chase and winning the hundred gilder cup(Ride)
26.starting up a horse back messanger service (ride)
27.tracking down those pesky wild horses you need to break and then ride to victory in the race.(Survival)
28. save the land lords daughter form the raging torrents that are the swollen river.(swim)
29. swimming our across the lake to the sacred places of your people where the gods are close(swim)
30.Swimming across the lake to go and pick a fight with the bloody great troll that lives on the other side.(swim)
Hello everyone, and welcome to a discussion of something that has bothered me for a long time, boh as a player and a GM. I plan on doing several of these posts on different subjects, so i would appreciate it if we could stay focused on the subject of each individual thread.
ok, first let me respond of Role Playing vs Power Gaming
*takes out nerf whiffle bat*
No. No , no no no. and no. Bad DM, no doughnut.
You are not role playing better just because your wizard has the iq of sack of grain or your barbarian dies in a stiff breeze. Your Roll playing is no worse if you actually put some heart and soul into the character. They are NOT two opposite ends of a spectrum that allow you to reach towards one by deliberately moving away from the other.
These are the warning signs of a poor role player
-They have no back ground/backstory
-They have no personality
-They are adventuring "just because"
-They have no motives or goals besides killing things, taking their loot so they can kill more things.
These are NOT the warning signs of a poor role player
-They are effective at fulfilling their class role.
-Their stats make sense for what they do in life.
The problem is that we are all more focused on role-playing, and the last player always is a power gamer. In the situation of ability scores, these players always build a character with an 18, some mid range stats, and at least one "dump stat". We have done different ability score generation, but it always ends up the same.
If they're not starting with at least a 20 in pathfinder they aren't even STARTING to power game.
Point buy: dump 2 stats to 7, max out the key scores
Dice pool: 4 stats with 3 dice, distribute extras in key scores
Standard roles: well, it's standard, hard to power game it, but i can tell you what roll is going in charisma...
Its an inherent part of the system. Charismia does nothing, so people don't put points into it.
I will point out before i get flamed for it, we have had "power campaigns" before. For example, one was with 3 book of nine swords characters and a mystic theurge for arcane/healing. The point is, however, is everyone agreed beforehand, that we were going to power game. We were playing Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, a dungeon crawl that we more affectionately refer to as "The Meat Grinder"
ok, if you think the mystic theurge is power gaming you have a loooooong, loooooong way to go before you can even glimpse a normal level of play from where your group is at.
Anyway, what this tends to lead to, is that we have a front line putting out ridiculous damage or a caster with ridiculous unmakeable save dc's. Currently we have an 8th level barbarian on one set of characters, who averages 50+ dmg on a full attack, highest was 83 dmg with haste up. Best average damage output by any other member of the group is 15 or so. The main problem here is that anything that is a threat to the...
.... that is not a power gamer. That is a normal gamer.
The high save dc: the same player that has the barbarian has a witch in the other campaign (we switch off every couple weeks, taking turns as GM). A couple weeks ago, against a large group of low level opponents, he basically cut the encounter in half with one spell and some metamagic, all cuz nothing could mace the save. (fireball maximized, intensified, metamagic rod: selective). Droped the fireball right on 2 PCs heads's and eliminated 8 enemies.
... that is what a fireball is SUPPOSED to do: kill a lot of low level mooks. Mooks (who probably had bad reflex saves) aren't supposed to be able to live.
The party I'm playing with has made it clear that the power gamers actions are un-welcome, any thoughts on further action to take, aside from just outright kicking out another player.
These aren't power gamers. Unless you want to just wall off the group i think you're going to have to redefine what you see as power gaming. Have you tried having people make competent characters, take a look at some optimization builds on the boards? 15 points of damage per round at level 8 isn't suboptimal, its sub basement in a drow tenement complex.
Wait he had a tower shield and survived the first few levels? wait wait he is an optimizer and he took a tower shield?? No one I have ever played with has survived the -4 to hit and -10acp, any water and goodbye barbarian.DM: Your barbarian falls into the water. Due to his tower shield, he's a goner. No way to avoid drowning with that -10 armor check penalty.
Player: Uh, I let go of the shield.
DM: ....
Its a wooden tower shield. I let go of it to eliminate the penalty, and then rest on it as it floats in the water for a bonus.
DM: Your barbarian falls into the water. Due to his tower shield, he's a goner. No way to avoid drowning with that -10 armor check penalty.
Player: Uh, I let go of the shield.
DM: ....
Ok, that made me laugh. Awesome.
Seriously, who is going to drown because of an skill penalty on their shield? No one.
In my opinion, if you're having problems with a power gamer halfway through a campaign, the GM failed to set out the expectations for the new guy.
If you grab 10 people, plunk them all down, and tell them each to roll a character, you'll end up with at least 4 different playstyles. Likewise, if you have a core group of players that play a specific way, and pull 10 people in, one at a time, your odds of getting someone that plays well to your style is pretty slim. It's like playing the lottery, waste of time.
I betcha that same guy, if he had been told that the character creation process should go "this specific way", then he would have made a character that fit with the group. The GM can easily say "ok, we don't roll characters the usual way, let me show you how we do it here". Sit down, build a character concept, then start finding rules to fit. Do it over email if you don't want to tie up game sessions. (building a character this way should take minimum 2 weeks probably, between school/work/life)
*made a lot of excellent points
Exactly. Let me continue using my paladin (Warrior of Holy Light)/monk (zen archer) as an example: I started out with a modified take on the elite array, prioritizing Str>Cha>Dex>Con>Int>Wis to make a samurai-flavored character. I focus on switch-hitter feats (Power Attack, Deadly Aim, Quick Draw etc), because in my mind, a combatant that is useless at range is mostly useless all over. We are lv8 and I have a Str16, 18 with a belt. Any serious combatant will have 18 in strength by lv7.
Now, if I just go and punch someone in the face, I do 2d6+4 with vital strike. That is the LEAST damage output I can really do. Already, the real optimizers are arming themselves with eggs and tomatoes to pelt me for making a useless character, but I am a hard-core roleplayer, I can tell you the name of my character's kin, his grandma, the name of the forest leading up to the shrine where he learned his martial arts and discovered his potential as a paladin. Anyway, back to the math: If I full-attack, 1d6+4 x2. If I put some effort into it, 1d6+8 x2. This nets an average of 23. The so-called "appropriate" DPR. And that is when my character has not even drawn his sword, and is punching people, without buffs.
When the normal "expecting 1 encounter/day" buffs are up (Blessing of Fervor and Prayer from the cleric, my aura for +1 to hit/dam, enlarge person from the wizard, and often my bonded weapon ability to deal fire damage) AND I smite, I do 6d8+3d6+66 (avg 107) if I hit on all attacks (which is likely). Doing 83 damage is trivial when I go all out. A quick estimate lands my potential (all crits) damage at 246.
And again, my character is an un-focused fluff-oriented paladin6/monk1 that started with a 16 as his highest stat.
Edit: Oh yeah, fireball is NOT a good measurement stick for how much damage someone should be able to deal. It is there to wipe out mooks and soften up baddies that are close together. If you cast Resist Energy on the combatants, you can even use it while people are in melee. It is so weak they would hardly ever get hurt.
While I admit 15 dpr is low in and around the level 10 area, i think 25-35 would reasonable based on the play styles of the non PG players of the group.NO ONE is going to fit into your group. NO. ONE. That is not a good target for level 10 as a damage per round output. The Rogue sneak attacking should defeat that with no effort. Hell, the Rogue NOT Sneak Attacking should be able to exceed that. No full BAB class is going to gimp themselves enough to join your party of pig farmers doing amazing things. I, personally, would highly suggest you switch to a more role-playing focused system.
A wizard casting magic missile should meet his DPR standards at that level.
At level 10 if my FAMILIAR isn't putting out 15 DPR I threaten to replace him with a toad for the con boost.
Now to be fair -- the specific player isn't matching -- but at the same time elven blades you need to know how far off the power curve your group is.
This isn't bad but it is an indicator that maybe the guy isn't so far out there as a "power gamer" as it is that your power curve is rather low.
Perhaps as a group you all should sit back look at what you have and have a discussion about expectations.
I'd be interested in seeing some character classes and stats.
Elven_Blades, I have a suggestion. I think it should work for you.
Collaboratively recreate the character (or characters). Start with a character concept and personality (with the player), build out his backstory (with the player), define the characters fears and beliefs (with the player), determine his MO, his attack style, his insufficiencies and drawbacks (with the player). Help him make sure that everything fits together thematically without even consulting the rules. But you must do this with him.
It would only be fair to allow all the other players to do this as well, but before you did that, you would need to define an expected power level. You can have all schmucks if you want, but it needs to be known and expected. If you all decide to up the power level of the PCs, then hooray, everyone gets to start over, and build their character around the tactics, beliefs, drawbacks, and flavor of their characters.
It's hard not to really get into the role of a character that you've breathed life into. I'm willing to bet that your results will be much more satisfying.
What I don't get is...
When all of the other characters aren't set up for combat and prefer roleplay over combat, or otherwise more "well-rounded" characters, why are you then upset that this other guy does well in combat? If you don't care about success in combat (and the characters were created with that philosophy) why get mad at the guy who enjoys combat, and doesn't steal the RP thunder from the RP characters when not in combat?
Seems like a wee bit of a double standard there.
Just my 2 cp.