i was wondering if there was anywhere we can look at costs of buildings
Yar!
The Kingmaker AP has rules for kingdom building. In it, each building is assigned a value based on "build points", or BP.
Your kingdom's treasury is also measured in BP.
This way, building one city block of livable housing costs either 1 BP = 4000 gp (for really crappy houses) or 3 BP = 12000 gold (for good houses). Building a basic Castle costs 54 BP = 216000 gp.
These are the only official pathfinder building rules that I'm aware of.
AD&D 2e and 3x had their own set of building rules as well, if you have access to them.
~P
Edit: added spoiler tags
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We could try to extrapolate the cost of a building from the cost of hirelings and meals. I am applying some modern concepts to this analysis but it is a starting point with a lack of rules.
So a trained hireling makes 3 sp a day or in a 30 day and working 25 days out of that month he makes 75 sp. Assuming a small family (2 parents and 2 kids) and feeding everyone ok meals and that poor meals cost 1 sp a day then A family man might be expected to spend 2 sp a day on food. This allows for both savings from leftovers and other economical actions on the family's part
So he has 25 sp left over for other expenses. Allow 5 sp a month more misc costs.
20 sp is now left for housing. I doubt That mortgages exist but if we use mortgages as a guide and expect that if someone saves 20 sp a month for 10 years they can buy a moderate home (1000 sq ft or so). So 20x12x10= 240 sp for a small home in a lower middle class neighborhood.
I don't know if this really fits with the economy of the world but that is what I guess. You could scale up or down based on the cost per square foot but I would double the cost at each addition 1000 sq ft to account for nicer building materials and neighborhoods.
We could try to extrapolate the cost of a building from the cost of hirelings and meals. I am applying some modern concepts to this analysis but it is a starting point with a lack of rules.
So a trained hireling makes 3 sp a day or in a 30 day and working 25 days out of that month he makes 75 sp. Assuming a small family (2 parents and 2 kids) and feeding everyone ok meals and that poor meals cost 1 sp a day then A family man might be expected to spend 2 sp a day on food. This allows for both savings from leftovers and other economical actions on the family's part
So he has 25 sp left over for other expenses. Allow 5 sp a month more misc costs.
20 sp is now left for housing. I doubt That mortgages exist but if we use mortgages as a guide and expect that if someone saves 20 sp a month for 10 years they can buy a moderate home (1000 sq ft or so). So 20x12x10= 240 sp for a small home in a lower middle class neighborhood.
I don't know if this really fits with the economy of the world but that is what I guess. You could scale up or down based on the cost per square foot but I would double the cost at each addition 1000 sq ft to account for nicer building materials and neighborhoods.
You're assuming quite a bit, including - and this would be your biggest fault - a trained hireling makes enough to live in a lower middle class neighborhood.
24 gp wouldn't buy you a house. It might buy you a single room hovel where you can fit your family, but it's definitely lower class.
The 3.5 SRD had the cost of a simple house at 1,000 gp, defined as a "one- to three-room house is made of wood and has a thatched roof." I'd start from there and begin to extrapolate.
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You're assuming quite a bit, including - and this would be your biggest fault - a trained hireling makes enough to live in a lower middle class neighborhood.24 gp wouldn't buy you a house. It might buy you a single room hovel where you can fit your family, but it's definitely lower class.
The 3.5 SRD had the cost of a simple house at 1,000 gp, defined as a "one- to three-room house is made of wood and has a thatched roof." I'd start from there and begin to extrapolate.
I went with trained as it implies some training or skill vs the surely poor untrained hireling. The traditional hierarchy of economies (non-feudal) is untrained, trained, merchants ( of varying success), nobles.
The housing of these levels reflects their general economic success. So then the poor are the untrained and they will live in the crappy neighborhoods. The trained based on the value of their skills will live in either nice poor neighborhoods or low end middle class. Merchants will live in all neighborhoods depending on their clientele but if we focus on the more successful merchants they will be the middle class and live I those 1000 gp homes. Really successful merchants will live in estates purchased from nobles or rented from a noble who does not like the home his parents built.
Now I hate bringing real life concepts into the game but in this case I think it makes sense. The economy must stand on it's own and not only on the concept that PCs will make tons of gold. So we have to go by the possible income of a normal citizens and they at least have to be able to pay rent, buy food and pay taxes. Rent usually represents the amortized value of a home plus some other landlord expenses that have to be passed on to the renter.
So, a trained hireling must be able to support at least himself on his wages or the economy is just not valid. His wife might supplement his income as either a trained or untrained hireling but that does not change the calculation by much. Even if we assume everyone in the small family works with parents being trained and kids untrained then the max cost of a home per month can't be much more than 70ish sp a month.
That still puts a small house at less than 100gp for outright purchase. Now the size and style of the house may vary with location but the economy of it cannot be denied.
According to the profession skill a trained worker will make 1/2 his profession check a week in gold. Going with a level 1 character with one skill point a wisdom of 12 (hardly high, but not low either), masterwork tools and his class skill bonus we have a +7 to his roll. Averaging a 10 he'll get a 17 on his check or about 8.5gp a week.
Now I've noticed that it seems like most NPCs are actually around level 3~5 and as such each level pass first would be .5 extra GP a week.
IF the NPC has skill focus on his skill (and why wouldn't he? After all he's not an adventurer skill focus on making more money makes sense for him) he'll make an extra 1.5 gp a week putting him up to 10gp a week.
Which is about in line with what you could do with a DC20 perform check in a week's time.
So for skilled labor/ anything covered by a profession I would go with the assumption that the "average" worker is making between 10~15 gp a week, or about 520~780 gp a year.
well, seeing as how my group just came into a good chunk of change and are presently hanging out in the capital, this question is bound to come up. I have thought about it as well in the terms that Abraham was looking at: based on profession. My numbers came up preey much the same around 750 gp per year for a decent wage. And with the average being a third spent on housing that is 240 gp/year or 20gp/month.
This is fantasy realm so a house would mainly consist of a large room for eating/cooking & sitting by the fire, with a couple bedrooms and for sake of decency an attached "out-house". That can easily be done in 600 sqft.
Going with those numbers that is 30 sqft/gp. That is for standard "rustic" style. With manor house type being double so 15 sqft/gp and fancy palace approaching the 1 gp/sqft range.
Those numbers seem reasonable and livable to me.
I'm glad this came up and I'm curious about the outcome.
As I said on another thread, I'm not sure anyone would bother with castles in the Pathfinder world.
How much does a stone, 13th century Norman castle go for in Pathfinder? 1,000,000? 2,000,000?
I bet I could outfit a bunch of nobles with rings of invisibility and wands of fireball for that price instead.
But which is more comfortable? A key question people forget.
Also many, many, many castles were not stone at all -- they were wood and just plastered up to look like they were stone.
This is from the wizards forums:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19615202/Rod_Noddenberrys _Emporium_of_Niggling_Details
Pretty awesome!!!
So a Keep with a Tower according to this guy is about 100,000 GP.
So a Ring of Invisibility is 10,000 and a wand of Fireballs (6th level) is 13500... so for the price of a keep you could have 4 guys invisible shooting fireballs.
Yeah, I don't think these building would even exist in Pathfinder.
Honestly?
You would take 4 guys with a disposable wands instead of a safe house?
Talk about short sighted.
I could hire ten wizards at level 6 instead for that price and house them in the tower. I have 30 spells a day at least instead of just 4 guys that flail about in failing fashion.
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There used to be the "Stronghold Builders Guidebook" in 3rd edition. I haven't checked it recently but I have a copy. Most things in it weren't too bad for pricing. Perhaps it could be used as a beginning point. Give me some time, and I can look a few things up after work and see if you folks agree with the pricing.
Well, you would be right if you had infinite money. Mine works better for the price for a couple reasons: mine is done on a 100,000 budget, rings last forever so you can keep giving them to new generations of knights, wands don't run out quickly if you save them for war, plus no one will mess with you if you have those wands sitting around with invisible guys, so the wands will multiply with the years in the same way castles do.
In a pinch, you could still hire some wizards for the season, but every year you have the money to build a new keep, better to add 4 more super soldiers.
But what are your "super soldiers" doing? What are they protecting? How are you going to protect any or anything with just four guys with wands that can only do one thing?
The wizards can change what they are going to do -- if I can afford the four guys on retainer I can afford ten wizards, and the building once made doesn't go away unless I fail -- at which point I have more issues.
Also with lead lining on the tower (and lead glass windows -- easily done) I don't have to worry about divination -- which your four guys do. Your simple rings are undone by either of two second level spells (indeed even a first level spell can undo them), while the wizards can do much more.
finally with 10 wizards I can have shifts of more than one person active at a time, and they could be instead making the magical items you are talking about therefore having everything you want and some more to boot (can't make the rings, could make wands of invisibility though).
All in all I'm better off with the keep, which will keep me warm in the winter, cooler in the summer, provide a means of income, protect me from divination, offer a great view, comfort, and not be completely dependent on something that once bought can't be changed.
By stunning coincidence, I expect one of my players at the game tomorrow to try to buy the inn in the trade town where they just returned to after a series of adventures. So I came here looking for a guideline on how much that would cost. I didn't tell her a price yet, so I'm still wondering if there's a more official answer anywhere.
If a house is 1000gp (a reference I can't find in the SRD online... not sure what to look for there), I figure an established inn in a trading town would be worth a good 6-7K, maybe up to 10K. That sound fair?
Dot for interest.
If a house is 1000gp (a reference I can't find in the SRD online... not sure what to look for there), I figure an established inn in a trading town would be worth a good 6-7K, maybe up to 10K. That sound fair?
The price of buildings in the 3.5 SRD is in a ludicrously convoluted place. But I shall link you to it anyhow. (And, yes, that does say that the price of buildings can be found in the Wilderness section... I said it was ludicrously convoluted :)).
I'm pretty sure some of the city guides (Korvosa and Katapesh come to mind) have renting/housing costs. It should be possible to extrapolate from those values.
Yar!
If you're hoping to be as Pathfinder official as possible instead of using 3x guidelines, I once again direct you to the Kingmaker Adventure Path. Since the building in question is an Inn...
Note: These rules also assume a small number of small residential buildings close by, so you may consider reducing the cost again by a small amount. An inn is a large multi-purpose structure and business after all, and should require some investment. ^_^
~P
Thanks, all. I'll put the asking price at 20K and leave room for negotiation. She's got a high charisma and she knows the owners, we'll see if she can talk them down... or if it even occurs to her.
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According to the profession skill a trained worker will make 1/2 his profession check a week in gold.
Snip
So for skilled labor/ anything covered by a profession I would go with the assumption that the "average" worker is making between 10~15 gp a week, or about 520~780 gp a year.
Damn, I forgot profession. Now that makes 1000 gp houses more reasonable. Which puts my skilled hireling (skilled in what, dunno) in the poor side of town and puts the various professions solidly in the middle class.
According to the profession skill a trained worker will make 1/2 his profession check a week in gold.
Snip
So for skilled labor/ anything covered by a profession I would go with the assumption that the "average" worker is making between 10~15 gp a week, or about 520~780 gp a year.
Damn, I forgot profession. Now that makes 1000 gp houses more reasonable. Which puts my skilled hireling (skilled in what, dunno) in the poor side of town and puts the various professions solidly in the middle class.
No problem -- such things easily fall through the cracks when trying to find stuff in odd places. The profession skill is one major reason I laugh when people try to push the supposed "1 gp a year -- if that" economy.
Even unskilled laborers earn a silver a week -- which puts them at 5.2 gold a year -- which is pretty much at the begging end of things IMO.
Although I'm really put off by the idea of magic being blocked by lead. I didn't realize magic was the result of gamma rays.
Do low level wizards produce Alpha particles? Do women in burkas have an immunity to 1st level magic?
Instead of 1 inch of lead can I use 5 inches of concrete to block magic?
In d20 modern, are people in bunkers immune to scry because of the concrete and earth?
Actually it's fairly well established that lead and gold are good at blocking divination in a metaphysical sense (as well as in an actual chemistry/physics). If you want to replace the thin sheet of lead I suggest the 5 foot of concrete, since that's the minimum you'll want to block particles or divinations -- and even that is no guarantee. As to the Burkas, it could be possible if you rule that the burka itself isn't equipment but more of a vehicle that offers complete concealment/cover to the woman inside -- which would match what the outfit is supposed to actually do as well so you have physical/metaphysical/purpose matching which help it wash more.
For the alpha particles -- who knows but it would explain the number of power crazy/insane casters out there.
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Although I'm really put off by the idea of magic being blocked by lead. I didn't realize magic was the result of gamma rays.
Personally I prefer salt circles.
Being cheaper is a bonus. :)
(srsly, I really do prefer reasonably affordable mystically-mundane solutions to some of the bigger problem spell issues, especially if it evokes real world ideas of mysticism and the occult)
I'm glad this came up and I'm curious about the outcome.
As I said on another thread, I'm not sure anyone would bother with castles in the Pathfinder world.
How much does a stone, 13th century Norman castle go for in Pathfinder? 1,000,000? 2,000,000?
I bet I could outfit a bunch of nobles with rings of invisibility and wands of fireball for that price instead.
Everyone knows a castle only costs 6,500 GP. How is this so might you ask? A lvl 6 caster with a scroll of fabricate, the craft wondrous item feat, and a friendly bard who can play stringed instruments really well. Combine this with some various traits of the required characters, and perhaps a Cleric with the luck domain. Anything you can find to re-roll d-20's as much as possible will be beneficial. Locate abandoned ruins, rocky coast line, preferably some place not owned by anyone and have your Bard start playing your newly acquired Lyre of Building...
Then you just run into a new conundrum of course which is there are no really well established rules of what can be built with the man hours this item provides. But surely you could build a castle in a relatively short period of time, doing a little research to convince your DM of the viability of this. And if you have a really open minded DM you build many castles all within a 100 mile range of each other. Save your money and time and invest in a few portable holes, and some ring gates and create a transit system such as the world of pathfinder has never seen.
"Here my good fellow jump into this extra dimensional hole and we will fold you up and shove you through this little ring transferring you to one of our local hubs for a very reasonable rate."
(Brought to you in part by your local "munchkin")