For the first 24 hours it is counted like you're under effect of Fox's Cunning, and yes after 24 hours you get those things.
Im trying to understand what it means that the ability bonus is counted as temporary for the first 24 hours.
Does it mean that after 24 hours the person wearing the headband gets retroactive skill points, and for wizards, retroactive 1st level spells?
Note that each headband is keyed to 1 skill per +2 bonus. So you can't put one on to get a bonus to stealth, then take it off and put it back on and choose to get skill ranks in knowledge:religion the next day.
Note that each headband is keyed to 1 skill per +2 bonus. So you can't put one on to get a bonus to stealth, then take it off and put it back on and choose to get skill ranks in knowledge:religion the next day.Im trying to understand what it means that the ability bonus is counted as temporary for the first 24 hours.
Does it mean that after 24 hours the person wearing the headband gets retroactive skill points, and for wizards, retroactive 1st level spells?
I think the OP was just referring to the base skill point gain for increasing intelligence, the bonus skill ranks from the headband are separate to this.
Im trying to understand what it means that the ability bonus is counted as temporary for the first 24 hours.
Does it mean that after 24 hours the person wearing the headband gets retroactive skill points, and for wizards, retroactive 1st level spells?
What it means is that for the first 24 hours it doesn't give you the skillppoints or bonus spells (the only two things coming to mind as the difference between temporary and permanent int) . This is to prevent a party with 2 wizards from passing them around or the wizard wearing the headband while prepping his spells and then passing the band off to the druid's animal companion.
Don't forget you get bonus languages as part of your INT increase.
Does it mean that after 24 hours the person wearing the headband gets retroactive skill points,
No, not retroactive.
The player wearing the HoVI does not get to choose what skill they get to put ranks in. The skill where all the ranks go is chosen at item creation by the creator of the HoVI. If the item is found, the DM should determine what skill is woven into the headband before hand. Those skill ranks are equal to the wearer's character level and do not stack with current ranks.
IOW, if joe shmoe (Charater Level 8, INT 14, with 4 skill ranks in Appraise and 3 in Bluff and 6 in Stealth) puts a HoVI +4 with the skills Appraise and Bluff, after 24 hours he receives 8 skill ranks in Appraise and Bluff and maintains 6 in stealth. When he moves onto 9th level, the skill ranks given thru the HoVI will move up in Appraise and Bluff to 9 each and he can put his ranks that he gets from his original INT mod (+2) and class anywhere he wants. As long as he has the HoVI on, those ranks he had in Appraise and Bluff beforehand are useless and can not be shifted.
I think the OP was just referring to the base skill point gain for increasing intelligence, the bonus skill ranks from the headband are separate to this.Note that each headband is keyed to 1 skill per +2 bonus. So you can't put one on to get a bonus to stealth, then take it off and put it back on and choose to get skill ranks in knowledge:religion the next day.Im trying to understand what it means that the ability bonus is counted as temporary for the first 24 hours.
Does it mean that after 24 hours the person wearing the headband gets retroactive skill points, and for wizards, retroactive 1st level spells?
No, they are not. They are one and the same. You don't get to double dip.
If a fifth level character wear a HoVI +2 (Stealth) then he gets five ranks in stealth after 24 hours (even if he already has 5 ranks in stealth). You don't get those plus 5 more ranks. You only get the ranks in the specific skills of the HoVI.
So, HoVI +4 (Stealth, Sense Motive) gives, after 24 hours, 5 ranks in Stealth and 5 ranks in Sense Motive to the same 5th level character from above.
The weird one is HoVI +2 (Linguistics) which not only grants linguistics ranks, but also languages. So, those HoVI's have to have the languages specified too, in order (Common, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Draconic, Areal, Terran, Demonic, etc...). So the same 5th level character from above would gain 5 ranks in linquistics, and the languages Common, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling and Gnome. At 6th level, he'd gain Goblin. Even if he already spoke some or all of those languages.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Don't forget you get bonus languages as part of your INT increase.
That's actually on a GM by GM basis, I've had several Paizo employee's respond on that, and they responded both for and against. So until they errata it, it's up to the GM.
No, they are not. They are one and the same. You don't get to double dip.
Yes, my bad I realised that after I posted.
Don't forget you get bonus languages as part of your INT increase.That's actually on a GM by GM basis, I've had several Paizo employee's respond on that, and they responded both for and against. So until they errata it, it's up to the GM.
By RAW, it is actually a clear no. Under Intelligence it states "The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game".
Later increases to intelligence does not grant you languages, as you are not at the start of the game.
By RAW, it is actually a clear no. Under Intelligence it states "The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game".
Later increases to intelligence does not grant you languages, as you are not at the start of the game.
I disagree with this. From what I understand from the game designers, every aspect of increasing attributes increase when you raise an attribute enough to change the modifier.
I don't recall a single designer who has state otherwise about the increases and specifically about the HoVI. They have not agreed on whether the extra language is hard code like the skills, but have agreed that the extra language is there.
By RAW, it is actually a clear no. Under Intelligence it states "The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game".
Later increases to intelligence does not grant you languages, as you are not at the start of the game.I disagree with this. From what I understand from the game designers, every aspect of increasing attributes increase when you raise an attribute enough to change the modifier.
I don't recall a single designer who has state otherwise about the increases and specifically about the HoVI. They have not agreed on whether the extra language is hard code like the skills, but have agreed that the extra language is there.
No, see bolded text. The increase in intelligence takes place after the start of the game, so you do not get extra languages for any increase or decrease in intelligence after this point for any reason. No-one has said otherwise because there is no need to, the condition for intelligence giving bonus languages is the start of the game only.
If you want to gain languages, have one of the skills the headband increases be Linguistics.
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. |
No, see bolded text. The increase in intelligence takes place after the start of the game, so you do not get extra languages for any increase or decrease in intelligence after this point for any reason. No-one has said otherwise because there is no need to, the condition for intelligence giving bonus languages is the start of the game only.
If you want to gain languages, have one of the skills the headband increases be Linguistics.
I am quite aware of what the text says. Please note that it also doesn't say that skill points are gained in a retroactive fashion either in the ability description or on page 30 where character advancement is described. Both the extra language and skill gains have been stated by the game designer, Jason Bulmahn, and also stated by some of the game designers, such as James Jacob.
Perhaps this should be included in the FAQ.
Edit: The same is true of Constitution increases. The ability section says that you add your constitution modifier to each die roll. So, does that mean that don't gain extra hit points when you increase you constitution?
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Dabbler, the point Mistwalker is trying to make isn't that rules say its this way. The point is that some feel the rules are unclear on this matter. Highlighting that passage of text is helpful, but it's not enough, given how the rules for increasing Int and Con work for everything else in the game.
At least, it's not enough for Mistwalker, myself, and a good portion of others, including some of the designers.
We are familiar with the rules, but feel there is something missing;
You are welcome to disagree, but that will not change our opinion.
Dabbler, the point Mistwalker is trying to make isn't that rules say its this way. The point is that some feel the rules are unclear on his matter. Highlighting that passage of text is helpful, but it's not enough, given how the rules for increasing Int and Con work for everything else in the game.
No Bob, the rules are not in any way unclear, they are very clear and very specific: You gain one extra language per point of positive intelligence modifier at the beginning of the game, that is what the rules say. If you increase your intelligence modifier and it is NOT the beginning of the game, the condition ("at the beginning of the game") that allows a bonus language for each point of positive intelligence modifier no longer applies, therefore you don't gain a language. That cannot get any clearer.
What you mean is not that the rules are unclear but that you think they haven't said what you think that the the designer's intended, that you always have one extra language per point of intelligence modifier. That's very different from them being unclear on the subject.
Now if the intention was that languages are gained when intelligence is gained, the other place where I would expect to see this mentioned is under the HoVI description (or in fact any section that mentions increasing ability scores) - it mentions skills are increased, but only specific ones so that you cannot take the headband off and then put it on again to gain a skill you need at the time. The same logic would apply to languages, if you were intended to gain them, it would be the same language every time, so why is it not mentioned? because you do not gain additional languages, that's why. Clearly not gaining languages when your intelligence increases for any reason is not what the designers intended.
At least, it's not enough for Mistwalker, myself, and a good portion of others, including some of the designers.
You mean not that it says you do, but that it doesn't say specifically that you don't. The problem with this logic is that the rules do not specifically prohibit an awful lot of things. They do not prohibit extra languages for having a positive Wisdom modifier, for example, but that isn't because the rules are in any way unclear - they are very clear that languages are linked to intelligence, not wisdom. They are likewise clear that bonus languages are linked to starting intelligence.
We are familiar with the rules and feel there is something missing;
You are welcome to disagree, but that will not change our opinion.
I am fine with you wanting a change in the rules, to what you feel they should have said, but let's extrapolate one step further:
If you gain a language when you gain intelligence modifier, you should logically lose one if your intelligence modifier is reduced. If you take intelligence damage or drain, you should forget how to speak languages.So if my character Fred starts with 12 intelligence, knows Common and one other language. If he puts on a HoVI +2 he gains 1 skill point per level in a particular skill. You are arguing he should gain one language as well, but if this is so, logically like the skill it should be a single specific language. All well and good. If Fred gets zapped with a ray of idiocy and loses four points of intelligence, he loses both his bonus languages because his intelligence modifier is now zero, right? All well and good.
What happens if he gets hit a second time?
Logically, he loses more languages as his intelligence drops (because, well, he gains them as intelligence increases doesn't he?). However, he only has Common to lose, so logically he forgets how to speak entirely. Only thing is, I think that's pretty silly. But if you cannot forget a language so easily, I don't see how you can gain them so easily either.
From what I can tell the way it should work... on the Intellect band
1. You get a skill pt increase of one pt per 2 pts/ character level the Int band rasise you. These points however are hard-wired into the headband as as to what skills they are allocated to. If they overlap with existing skills, the character does not get extras.
2. If the campaign rules that increasing Int gives you language slots, then languages would also be hardwired into the headband as well, following the design logic of 1. Which the intent being that you don't get to reset your skill and language choices every time you take the headband off for a day.
This is how I personally handle it, as it's the most logical.
Then again, I also give an extra language if you boost your int naturally and the bonus goes up (from 13 to 14 for example).
No Bob, the rules are not in any way unclear, they are very clear and very specific: You gain one extra language per point of positive intelligence modifier at the beginning of the game, that is what the rules say. If you increase your intelligence modifier and it is NOT the beginning of the game, the condition ("at the beginning of the game") that allows a bonus language for each point of positive intelligence modifier no longer applies, therefore you don't gain a language. That cannot get any clearer.
Actually, they could have been clearer. You are applying your interpretation of the rules.
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game.
The rule does not state that you can only gain the bonus languages at the start of the game. It can be interpreted either way.
However, he only has Common to lose, so logically he forgets how to speak entirely.
Actually, the rules address this in the 3rd phrase of that paragraph. It says that you cannot lose your racial languages unless your intelligence drops below 3.
I am fine with having a different interpretation of the rules. I don't support the idea that I am asking for a change in the rule rather than a clarification.
A question for you Dabbler. Do allow for constitution increases to be retroactive to hit points?
No Bob, the rules are not in any way unclear, they are very clear and very specific: You gain one extra language per point of positive intelligence modifier at the beginning of the game, that is what the rules say. If you increase your intelligence modifier and it is NOT the beginning of the game, the condition ("at the beginning of the game") that allows a bonus language for each point of positive intelligence modifier no longer applies, therefore you don't gain a language. That cannot get any clearer.Actually, they could have been clearer. You are applying your interpretation of the rules.
No, I am pointing out what they RAW says. You are taking what it says, ignoring the part "at the start of the game" and insisting that they meant something else. It's not even an interpretation, it's a house rule.
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game.The rule does not state that you can only gain the bonus languages at the start of the game. It can be interpreted either way.
Then where does it state that you get them at any other time other than through the Linguistics skill? Surely it would say "The number of bonus languages your character knows" and leave it at that if it is to vary as you claim it should?
The rules don't say a lot of things. Just because it does not say that things do not happen does not mean that they do.
However, he only has Common to lose, so logically he forgets how to speak entirely.Actually, the rules address this in the 3rd phrase of that paragraph. It says that you cannot lose your racial languages unless your intelligence drops below 3.
I am fine with having a different interpretation of the rules. I don't support the idea that I am asking for a change in the rule rather than a clarification.
A question for you Dabbler. Do allow for constitution increases to be retroactive to hit points?
Of course. The rules support this, they specifically state that you gain your con bonus on all hit dice. The same happens with skill ranks per level. Only languages have the line: "at the start of the game" inserted that makes clear this is ONLY at the start of the game. If it wasn't ONLY at the start of the game, why include that line?
Headband of Vast Intellect.
Just outlaw it. Casters need no help.
Of course. The rules support this, they specifically state that you gain your con bonus on all hit dice. The same happens with skill ranks per level. Only languages have the line: "at the start of the game" inserted that makes clear this is ONLY at the start of the game. If it wasn't ONLY at the start of the game, why include that line?A question for you Dabbler. Do allow for constitution increases to be retroactive to hit points?
Yet that is not what RAW says. According to the rules, it says that the constitution modifier is applied for each roll of a Hit Die.
Could you explain the discrepancy?
Also, please note that the language wording is "The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game". It doesn't address whether that is the only time that you can gain additional languages as a bonus. As mentioned before, if the word "only" had been included in the phrase, I would agree with you. As it is, we have a difference of interpretation.
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Dabbler, in all seriousness, you are acting like a troll.
We are saying that we believe the rules are unclear. You can point to the same passage of text all day, but that does not change the fact that we believe the rules are unclear.
We are allowed to think some rules are unclear; it's not an attack on the game, the writers, the players, or individuals who not not agree with us. You have correctly pointed out the rules in question - we have demonstrated that we understand them - but both of us are drawing different and contrary conclusions.
The rules do not say that increasing intelligence after character creation grants additional languages, or that reducing intelligence removes known languages (or known skill points). You are absolutely, 100% correct on this.
However, the rules also do not say that increasing intelligence does not grant additional languages, and we find this lack of clarification to be significant, given how increases to intelligence and constitution affect everything else. This is all we are trying to say.
Dabbler, in all seriousness, you are acting like a troll.
No less than you are, my friend. We're both adamant in our positions. The problem is, I've seen "the rules don't say you can't do X" as countless justifications for munchkinism, so perhaps I've over-reacted a little.
We are saying that we believe the rules are unclear. You can point to the same passage of text all day, but that does not change the fact that we believe the rules are unclear.
I understand where you are coming from, don't get me wrong - in all other cases, where modifiers grant bonuses, a change in the modifier changes the bonus retroactively; I totally get that. However, the languages section is the only one that adds "at the start of the game", and these are bonus languages, gaining new languages is only otherwise mentioned in Linguistics.
You are looking at the languages and saying: "Well, why don't you gain them for increased intelligence? Every other modifier increase applies retroactively."
I'm looking at it and saying: "You gain languages from ranks in the Linguistics skill, but at first level you can only get one rank and there are many languages. Therefore you must get bonus languages based on intelligence at the start of the game as an exception to the rules on gaining languages. After that they don't change as they are the languages your character learned while growing up and you cannot exactly revise your childhood."
In other words, you are asking why languages are an exception to ability modifiers, while I'm seeing intelligence modifiers granting languages as an exception to the rules on gaining languages for starting characters.
In other words, you are asking why languages are an exception to ability modifiers, while I'm seeing intelligence modifiers granting languages as an exception to the rules on gaining languages for starting characters.
Actually,
My take on it is, the devs have stated that the intention with stats was to make it so that if a character is statted up at 1st, 5th, 10th, or 20th level, it should not matter what their starting stats were. This is one reason why INT bonuses are now retroactive for skills.With the interpretation that bonus languages are only at level 1, we then have to keep track of starting stats, which is counter to the stated goal of making a character at any level without worrying about how they leveled etc.
This is why it seems to be a fuzzy area to many of us. I think that the wording supports your interpretation, but I don't think it's necessarily RAI (Rules as Intended) for the languages to be retro as well.
No, see bolded text. The increase in intelligence takes place after the start of the game, so you do not get extra languages for any increase or decrease in intelligence after this point for any reason. No-one has said otherwise because there is no need to, the condition for intelligence giving bonus languages is the start of the game only.
If you want to gain languages, have one of the skills the headband increases be Linguistics.
I am quite aware of what the text says. Please note that it also doesn't say that skill points are gained in a retroactive fashion either in the ability description or on page 30 where character advancement is described. Both the extra language and skill gains have been stated by the game designer, Jason Bulmahn, and also stated by some of the game designers, such as James Jacob.
Perhaps this should be included in the FAQ.
Edit: The same is true of Constitution increases. The ability section says that you add your constitution modifier to each die roll. So, does that mean that don't gain extra hit points when you increase you constitution?
If languages were gained retroactively then why doesn't increasing intelligence by levels(every 4th level) do it, and why the point of saying at character creation, when saying nothing of the sort would cause not confusion at all. That "at character creation" clears everything up, and anything else is wishful thinking.
PS:Why are you taking that linguistics skill?
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My take on it is, the devs have stated that the intention with stats was to make it so that if a character is statted up at 1st, 5th, 10th, or 20th level, it should not matter what their starting stats were. This is one reason why INT bonuses are now retroactive for skills.
With the interpretation that bonus languages are only at level 1, we then have to keep track of starting stats, which is counter to the stated goal of making a character at any level without worrying about how they leveled etc.
This was certainly the motivation for many of the changes to things like retroactive skill points and even the new skill point system created during Alpha and Beta testing. I agree that bonus languages at each +2 Int bump, whether natural or magic, is consistent with this logic. It's how I've always played.
It is not, however, what the RAW says. It can be finagled into the RAW by saying the rule describes 1st level only and does not describe further character progression, or it can be rejected on the same grounds. I think arguments based on RAW are probably stronger on the "does not" side. But I absolutely agree that "does" is more likely RAI. Looking back at other threads on this topic (which pop up about once/wk) James has said he's not sure. So much for a developer stepping in. Sigh.
On the question about, "if so, then why linguistics?" - because the vast majority of characters do not end up with +2 Int at any point in their careers. Linguistics remains the most common way for most characters to gain a language. But just like every other stat increase granting all other benefits retroactively, I think the intention was for Int increases to grant all Int benefits, including new languages, retroactively.
My take on it is, the devs have stated that the intention with stats was to make it so that if a character is statted up at 1st, 5th, 10th, or 20th level, it should not matter what their starting stats were. This is one reason why INT bonuses are now retroactive for skills.
With the interpretation that bonus languages are only at level 1, we then have to keep track of starting stats, which is counter to the stated goal of making a character at any level without worrying about how they leveled etc.
This was certainly the motivation for many of the changes to things like retroactive skill points and even the new skill point system created during Alpha and Beta testing. I agree that bonus languages at each +2 Int bump, whether natural or magic, is consistent with this logic. It's how I've always played.
It is not, however, what the RAW says. It can be finagled into the RAW by saying the rule describes 1st level only and does not describe further character progression, or it can be rejected on the same grounds. I think arguments based on RAW are probably stronger on the "does not" side. But I absolutely agree that "does" is more likely RAI. Looking back at other threads on this topic (which pop up about once/wk) James has said he's not sure. So much for a developer stepping in. Sigh.
On the question about, "if so, then why linguistics?" - because the vast majority of characters do not end up with +2 Int at any point in their careers. Linguistics remains the most common way for most characters to gain a language. But just like every other stat increase granting all other benefits retroactively, I think the intention was for Int increases to grant all Int benefits, including new languages, retroactively.
Absolutely. Please don't mistake my posts for saying the wording is not what was said. I simply think that it's a very wobbly thing, and the paragraph can be interpreted in multiple ways. As just what to do at first level, as you said, or a special exception to build vs level being the same.
Until it's handled in an errata or FAQ, then these arguments will continue, with people posting insulting posts calling other people's views 'wishing' instead of acknowledging that there is a legitimate issue.
On the other hand, I usually weight people's opinions based on how well they can express it without denegrated or minimizing other peoples positions. Those who insult I usually weight as being slightly more useful than my cat's opinion.
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Actually, My take on it is, the devs have stated that the intention with stats was to make it so that if a character is statted up at 1st, 5th, 10th, or 20th level, it should not matter what their starting stats were. This is one reason why INT bonuses are now retroactive for skills.
And this is why I interpret the additional skill points as both the boon to the specific skill attuned to the item AND the bonus skill points granted by the boost in INT. Again, I feel this is an unclear rule. So a HoVI (+2, stealth) grants you 1 additional skill point per character level due to the INT boost. It also grants you max ranks in the stealth skill regardless of how many ranks you currently have. If you already have max ranks, then the boost to stealth is "wasted." I see nothing in the description that would not support this conclusion and I have not found any info from the devs to clarify this issue. As far as the languages are concerned, I agree with the idea that you will get additional bonus languages from an INT boost. I base that on the idea that this item was supposed to become "simplified" from the 3.5 version so, as mdt stated, it would be easier to track.
Dabbler,
Could I ask you to respond to my questions?
I am not sure if you are avoiding them because answering them may call your interpretation into doubt or if they have been missed when you responded to others.
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And this is why I interpret the additional skill points as both the boon to the specific skill attuned to the item AND the bonus skill points granted by the boost in INT. Again, I feel this is an unclear rule.
From another recent thread on this same topic...
The headband of vast intelligence grants you an Intelligence bonus. We wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do...
So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item. That way, when you find an INT boosting head band, you not only know what the skill ranks it grants are, but when you take it off and put it back on or pass it around to your friends, it stays the same...
You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.
EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.
You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.
Thanks Mosaic, I couldn't find that quote. When even James Jacobs is fuzzy on languages being granted, nothing is really set in stone. I hope they FAQ/Errata it soon one way or the other to cut down on these arguments.
Thanks Mosaic. I hadn't seen that one. Still seems to be counter to the idea of simplifying the headband since the bonus is no longer a consistent quantity. Your skill points and INT modifier and again different, similar to 3.5, just not as bad.**sigh**
Actually, they aren't different.
Example :
3rd level wizard, 16 int.
Skill points : 15
Knowledge (Arcana) : 3 ranks
Knowledge (Planes) : 3 ranks
Spellcraft : 3 ranks
Perception : 3 ranks
Sense Motive : 1 rank
Stealth : 1 rank
Appraise : 1 rank
Wizard get's a +2 HoVI (Stealth)
His skills become :
Skill points : 18
Knowledge (Arcana) : 3 ranks
Knowledge (Planes) : 3 ranks
Spellcraft : 3 ranks
Perception : 3 ranks
Sense Motive : 1 rank
Stealth : 4 ranks
Appraise : 1 rank
His skill ranks is exactly what he would have had if he had an 18 int naturally, he has 18 skill points.
Unfortunately for him, he simply has too many in Stealth, he has 4. He can only use 3 of them because of his level. But the number of skill points is exactly correct for his int. If he takes off the headband, he drops back to 15 skill points. Again, exactly correct.
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Actually, they aren't different.
They are if you only take a quick glance and try to equate skill point to class/INT mod. The bonus to stealth does not factor. It easy to just take the headband away if you have spent no points in the bonus skill, but it becomes cumbersome if you have. As an example, there is no quick way to know the difference between two 10th level PC's with the same headband, one who sunk 2 points into the related skill and the other who spent 8 points.
Actually, they aren't different.They are if you only take a quick glance and try to equate skill point to class/INT mod. The bonus to stealth does not factor. It easy to just take the headband away if you have spent no points in the bonus skill, but it becomes cumbersome if you have. As an example, there is no quick way to know the difference between two 10th level PC's with the same headband, one who sunk 2 points into the related skill and the other who spent 8 points.
There is, but you need to record it.
In other words, what I've done before is record it like this :
___________ Check Bns Ranks
Stealth (Dex) _4/6* _2_ _2/4*
This indicates he has 2 ranks in the Stealth skill he payed for (second number), and 4 from the headband. This makes it easy to keep track of what they have spent on, and what they've gotten from headbands. The * indicates it's from the headband.
That's a good idea for hand written character sheets, but with the proliferation of computer sheets, it doesn't have that option.
Computer sheet solution :
Record the stealth without headband
On the blank lines provided (all of them have blank lines) record
Stealth (w HB) 6
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Thanks Mosaic. I hadn't seen that one. Still seems to be counter to the idea of simplifying the headband since the bonus is no longer a consistent quantity. Your skill points and INT modifier and again different, similar to 3.5, just not as bad.**sigh**Actually, they aren't different.
Example :
3rd level wizard, 16 int.
Skill points : 15
Knowledge (Arcana) : 3 ranks
Knowledge (Planes) : 3 ranks
Spellcraft : 3 ranks
Perception : 3 ranks
Sense Motive : 1 rank
Stealth : 1 rank
Appraise : 1 rankWizard get's a +2 HoVI (Stealth)
His skills become :
Skill points : 18
Knowledge (Arcana) : 3 ranks
Knowledge (Planes) : 3 ranks
Spellcraft : 3 ranks
Perception : 3 ranks
Sense Motive : 1 rank
Stealth : 4 ranks
Appraise : 1 rankHis skill ranks is exactly what he would have had if he had an 18 int naturally, he has 18 skill points.
Unfortunately for him, he simply has too many in Stealth, he has 4. He can only use 3 of them because of his level. But the number of skill points is exactly correct for his int. If he takes off the headband, he drops back to 15 skill points. Again, exactly correct.
My only problem with this is that you can not have a 3rd level character with 4 ranks in stealth.
Acquiring Skills
Each level, your character gains a number of skill ranks dependent upon your class plus your Intelligence modifier. Investing a rank in a skill represents a measure of training in that skill. You can never have more ranks in a skill than your total number of Hit Dice. In addition, each class has a number of favored skills, called class skills. It is easier for your character to become more proficient in these skills, as they represent part of his professional training and constant practice. You gain a +3 bonus on all class skills that you put ranks into. If you have more than one class and both grant you a class skill bonus, these bonuses do not stack.
So, in your example. The wizard has one rank in stealth, puts on the headband, and after 24 hours, has a total of 3 ranks in stealth (at least till they level to 4th level).
The problem with doing it your way is that it allows characters to meet the requirements for PRC's much earlier than they should be able to. for example, a level 3 fighter could qualify to be a Shadowdancer or an assassin. (2 ranks in stealth, +HoVI +2 (stealth) would = 5 ranks in stealth.)
So, in your example. The wizard has one rank in stealth, puts on the headband, and after 24 hours, has a total of 3 ranks in stealth (at least till they level to 4th level).The problem with doing it your way is that it allows characters to meet the requirements for PRC's much earlier than they should be able to. for example, a level 3 fighter could qualify to be a Shadowdancer or an assassin. (2 ranks in stealth, +HoVI +2 (stealth) would = 5 ranks in stealth.)
Nope,
Again, he may have 5 ranks in stealth, but the rules say his max is 3 at 3rd level. Now, he DOES have 5 ranks in it. You can't argue he doesn't. He has two skill ranks he put in, plus he has 3 from the headband. That is 5. However, he can't USE 5 due to the rule you quoted, he can only use 3. So, although he has 5, he only get's credit for 3.It's sort of like a treasure hunt. If a bowling pin is on the list of trash to find, and it's worth 10 points, you get 10 points for having one. If you picked up 10 pins, you still only get 10 points. Having things beyond the maximum you are allowed to use are useless to you, but it doesn't mean you don't have them.
Dabbler,
Could I ask you to respond to my questions?
I am not sure if you are avoiding them because answering them may call your interpretation into doubt or if they have been missed when you responded to others.
Sorry, I thought my last reply DID answer the questions adequately, and I didn't want to waste time and space quoting and then answering in minutiae. If you have any further queries or I did miss them, I'll happily answer them though.
Sorry, I thought my last reply DID answer the questions adequately, and I didn't want to waste time and space quoting and then answering in minutiae. If you have any further queries or I did miss them, I'll happily answer them though.Dabbler,
Could I ask you to respond to my questions?
I am not sure if you are avoiding them because answering them may call your interpretation into doubt or if they have been missed when you responded to others.
I do nit think you are doing this right. if my char is level 3 and has 2 ranks in stealth then outs on a headband of intilect keyed to stealth he doesn't get 5 tanks in stealth he gets 3. ( from thevheadband) then if he ever looses it he goes back to his normal ranks. the headbands do not break the skill rules.
I do nit think you are doing this right. if my char is level 3 and has 2 ranks in stealth then outs on a headband of intilect keyed to stealth he doesn't get 5 tanks in stealth he gets 3. ( from thevheadband) then if he ever looses it he goes back to his normal ranks. the headbands do not break the skill rules.
I'm assuming you were talking to me, not Dabbler, since he didn't say anything about this in the text you quoted.
If you put on a headband, you get 3 ranks from it. If you already had two ranks in it, those ranks aren't taken from you. If they were, you'd be off ranks for your level, or you'd be able to move them to another skill.
Thus, you have five ranks in stealth. It's just that you only get credit for the maximum at your current level, or 3. The other two don't magically disappear, they're simply not available for use.
EDIT: Here's an easier way to think of it. If you ever played Shadowrun or Cyberpunk, they had things called 'skill wires'. This was a computer in your brain, and you could 'slot' skill chips into it. If the chip you slotted had a higher rank in a skill than you did, the skill chip 'overrode' your own skill and you used the chip's rank. You didn't lose your knowledge for that skill, you just couldn't access it because the skill chip blocked it off and substituted it's own knowledge. A HoVI works exactly the same way. It blocks off the ranks you already have, but it doesn't remove them. It just keeps you from being able to access them. In turn, it substitutes it's own skill at the maximum your body can handle (your HD).
Dabbler, from the previous posts (see below), what I was looking for was the response to my second consitution question (bolded the critical text), and the one about the word "only".
Of course. The rules support this, they specifically state that you gain your con bonus on all hit dice. The same happens with skill ranks per level. Only languages have the line: "at the start of the game" inserted that makes clear this is ONLY at the start of the game. If it wasn't ONLY at the start of the game, why include that line?A question for you Dabbler. Do allow for constitution increases to be retroactive to hit points?
Yet that is not what RAW says. According to the rules, it says that the constitution modifier is applied for each roll of a Hit Die.
Could you explain the discrepancy?
Also, please note that the language wording is "The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game". It doesn't address whether that is the only time that you can gain additional languages as a bonus. As mentioned before, if the word "only" had been included in the phrase, I would agree with you. As it is, we have a difference of interpretation.
Con changes to HD is retroactive, see Constitution pg. 16 and Barbarian Pg. 32.
Con changes to HD is retroactive, see Constitution pg. 16 and Barbarian Pg. 32.
I am aware that the changes to constituton are retroactive. However, I was quoting from the book, where it says that you gain your con modifier for each roll of a HD. Later in the constitution entry, it goes on to say that the changes are retroactive, for good or bad.
I was attempting to illustrate that the language is a bit contradictory for some sections, and that some have had clarifications brought to them, such as the extra phrase at the end of the constitution entry. This is what a few of us are stating and are trying to communicate to Dabbler -that the language is a bit ambigious and more than one interpretation can result.
I would have to disallow the Barbarian reference thought, as that reference explains how rage works and could be explained away as a specific rule trumping a generic rule.