This is actually a collaboration, in part. I did the vast majority of the creative work, but I had four other people helping me define abilities and balance things. I wanted to make a ninja that was modular, so that just about anybody could create what they thought of as a ninja. Ninja replacement is a common theme in modern ninja fiction. I didn't look up any sources for it what it originated from, I just went with it.
Shinobi
HD d8
BAB 3/4
Good Saves: Ref/Will
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Engineering) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Nobility) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str)
Skill Points: 6+Int modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Shinobis are proficient with the blowgun, club, crossbow (hand or light), dagger, javelin, kama, kusari-gama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, shuriken, siangham, sickle, sling, spear, and starknife.
Shinobi are proficient with light armor, but not with shields. A Shinobi who wears medium or heavy cannot use his ki pool.
When wearing medium or heavy armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a Shinobi loses his shield of fear, fast movement, and fast stealth features.
Fast Movement (Ex): A 1st level Shinobi gains a 10-foot enhancement bonus to his speed. At 14th level this bonus increases to 20 feet.
Fast Stealth (Ex): A Shinobi may move at his normal speed while using the Stealth skill at no penalty.
Shuriken Storm (Ex): At 1st level, a Shinobi gains the benefit of the Rapid Shot feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites, but only for the purpose of throwing shuriken. At 10th level a Shinobi gain the benefit of the Manyshot feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites, but only for the purposes of throwing shuriken.
Bonus Feats: Shinobi get a bonus feat at 2nd level and again at 18th level. These bonus feats may be any feat for which the Shinobi is qualified.
Ninjutsu: At 3rd level, a Shinobi gains a new skill chosen from the following list, and he gains an additional ninjutsu skill every odd level. Some of these skills have prerequisites or level requirements that must be met before they can be taken. [ See second post. ]
Shield of Fear (Su): A 4th level Shinobi gains a +1 deflection bonus to his AC. Every four levels beyond first, he gains an additional +1 to a total of +5 at 20th level.
Replacement (Su): Starting at 4th level, a Shinobi may replace himself with inanimate objects in combat. Once per day, as an immediate action in response to an attack, a Shinobi may select an object within 30 ft and put it in harm's way in his place, while simultaneously reappearing behind the attacker. Use of this ability must be declared before the attack is resolved, and it causes the Shinobi to lose his next move action. If the attack would have been successful, the object used in the replacement takes the damage from the attack instead. The Shinobi is considered to be flanking the opponent for his next attack. If there is not an unoccupied square behind the opponent, this ability cannot be used.
Alternatively, the Shinobi may reappear in any square adjacent to the attacker other than the one directly opposite, though he does not gain flanking if he chooses to do so.
The object used for replacement must be an unattended, inanimate object of relative size. For instance, a sizable log, a barrel, a large sack of grain, or a chest might be appropriate for a small or medium creature to use. A Shinobi gains additional uses of this ability every four levels to a total of 5/day at 20th level, and he may choose to spend a ki point to gain an additional use of this ability.
Ki Pool (Su):
At 5th level, a Shinobi gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a Shinobi's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his Shinobi level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. A ki strike allows the Shinobi's attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool (a swift action), a Shinobi can gain one of the following bonuses:
* make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus (once per round)
* increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round
* give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round
* give himself a +5 enhancement bonus to stealth or acrobatics checks for 1 round
A Shinobi gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels. The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Fearless (Ex): At 6th level, a Shinobi becomes immune to fear (magical or otherwise).
Greater Replacement (Su): At 12th level, a Shinobi no longer loses his next move action when using replacement.
Perfect Replacement (Su): At 20th level, a Shinobi may use his replacement ability in response to consecutive attacks, and ignores the need for an object with which to replace himself. In addition, an enemy that has triggered replacement provokes attacks of opportunity from the Shinobi each time he attacks.
Living Shadow (Su): A 20th level Shinobi makes absolutely no sound unless he chooses to and cannot be percieved through hearing by any means. His body and all things carried by him can become shadowy and dull at will as a swift action, granting him a +10 circumstance bonus to hide in areas of darkness.
NINJUTSU
Armor Penetration (Ex): A Shinobi who selects this ninjutsu may use a ki point to make his next attack a touch attack. A Shinobi must be at least 5th level to select this ninjutsu.
Cricket Leap (Sp): This ninjutsu allows the Shinobi to spend a ki point to duplicate the effects of a jump spell with a caster level equal to half his Shinobi level. A Shinobi must be at least 5th level to select this ninjutsu.
Demon's Eyes (Ex): This ninjutsu allows a Shinobi to add half his class level to intimidation checks made to demoralize opponents.
Demon's Presence (Su): A Shinobi that chooses this ninjutsu can fill an area with menace. He may spend a ki point to make a single intimidate check against all creatures within 30 feet as a standard action. A Shinobi must be at least 5th level and have demon's eyes to select this ninjutsu.
Demon's Aura (Su): When a Shinobi with this ninjutsu uses demon's presence, creatures affected by the intimidate check cannot approach him for 1d4 rounds, though they may otherwise act normally. A Shinobi must be at least 10th level and have demon's presence to select this ninjutsu.
Evasion (Ex): With this ninjutsu, a Shinobi can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Shinobi is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Shinobi does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This ninjutsu works like evasion, except that while the Shinobi still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, he henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Shinobi does not gain the benefit of improved evasion. A Shinobi must be at least 10th level and have evasion to select this ninjutsu.
Falcon Strike (Ex): When a Shinobi selects this ninjutsu, he can make his attacks more potent by diving into them. The Shinobi must make an acrobatics check to long jump. If he jumps a distance of at least 15 feet and lands in a square adjacent to his target, his attack deals double damage. A Shinobi must be at least 10th level and have cricket leap to select this ninjutsu.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): a Shinobi can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does he lose his Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A Shinobi with this ability can still lose his Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against him.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Shinobi with this ninjutsu can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the Shinobi by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has Shinobi levels. A Shinobi must be at least 8th level and have uncanny dodge before selecting this ninjutsu.
Monkey Tumble (Ex): A Shinobi with this ninjutsu can tumble with the acrobatics skill at his normal speed with only a -5 penalty instead of the usual -10. At 12th level, the Shinobi no longer takes a penalty for tumbling at normal speed.
Magic Aura (Sp): This ninjutsu allows a Shinobi to mask any magical auras on his person. By spending a ki point, a Shinobi can hide all magical auras on items that he is wearing and/or carrying as the spell magic aura with a caster level equal to half his ninja level. This ability works exactly like the spell except as noted here. He cannot use this ability on objects he is not in possession of, nor can he use it to create illusions of magical auras on mundane objects.
Poison Use (Ex): Shinobi with this ninjutsu are trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison themselves when applying poison to a blade (see Poison).
Quick Climb (Ex): This ninjustsu allows a Shinobi to move at half his speed while climbing without taking any penalties.
Sneak Attack (Ex): A Shinobi with this ninjutsu deals 1d6 additional damage to creatures they hit who they are flanking or who are denied their Dexterity to AC. This ability functions exactly like a rogue's, and levels stack for purposes of determining damage. This ninjutsu may be chosen up to three times; each time it adds 1d6 damage to the sneak attack. A Shinobi must be at least level 6 to select this ninjutsu.
Steal Ki (Su): This ninjutsu gives a Shinobi sinister powers over the essence of his enemies. If the Shinobi scores a confirmed critical hit against a living enemy or reduces a living enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, he can steal some of that creature’s ki. This ability replenishes 1 spent ki point to the Shinobi’s ki pool, as long as the Shinobi has at least 1 ki point in his pool. He cannot exceed his ki pool’s maximum. A Shinobi must be at least 6th level before selecting this ninjutsu.
Spirit Ward (Su): Shinobi who select this ninjutsu can resist attempts to scry on them through rigorous training. A Shinobi can befuddle divinations used against him as if he were under the effect of a nondetection spell with a caster level equal to his character level. He can suppress or resume this protection as a standard action. If dispelled, the Shinobi cannot resume the nondetection for 1d4 rounds. This ninjutsu can be made to function passively for 24 hours by using two ki points. A Shinobi must be at least 12th level to select this ninjutsu.
Wall Running (Ex): A Shinobi with this ninjutsu may move along a vertical surface as if it were flat, but must end his movement on a horizontal surface or make an acrobatics check to jump away from the wall and avoid taking damage from falling. Every 5 feet of vertical movement consumes four squares of movement. A Shinobi with a speed of 40 feet could move 10 feet vertically with a single move action. A Shinobi may take a double move action to wall run, but cannot actually use the run action to do so.
Water Running (Ex): A Shinobi with this ninjutsu may move across water (or other similar, non-solid surfaces), but must begin and end his movement on a solid surface. If the Shinobi spends a ki point, he may remain on the surface of the water until the start of his next turn during which he must move to a solid surface or spend another ki point. A Shinobi must have wall running to select this ninjutsu.
Wind Running (Ex): This ninjutsu grants a Shinobi the ability to clear a battlefield quickly, leaping through extradimensional space from one opponent to another by using the enemy's ki. If the Shinobi is adjacent to a hostile creature, he may spend a ki point to instantly move to another hostile creature within 60 feet of the first as a move action. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A Shinobi must be at least 10th level and have water running before selecting this ninjutsu.
I like this :P
Reminds me of Hanzo from Samurai Showdown.
Looks really good to me. However i do have 2 suggestions.
1/ The deflection bonus to AC seems to be floating out there without any explaination as to why/how i would suggest instead something like
2/ I would suggest the ability to use 1 ki point as a swift action to gain hide in plain sight for 1 round allowing them to vanish in a cloud of dust. :)
Looks really good to me. However i do have 2 suggestions.
1/ The deflection bonus to AC seems to be floating out there without any explaination as to why/how i would suggest instead something like...
This being the first draft, I left out some of the fluff to condense the text. The real description of the ability is in the title "Shield of Fear." Cinematically the idea is this: a ninja pops up and the mooks are all like "Whoa!" and they get kinda shaky and reluctant. So, imagine it's like a passive intimidate but with different mechanics.
It's intended to mimic the monk's AC bonus to some degree, but I gave the bonus a type (since Shinobi can wear light armor), and deflection seemed to be the best fit. Work the fluff however you like, but I maintain that deflection is the best, playtest pending. The guys that helped me put it together are gonna help me run some playtests, and there are concerns that it will make rings of protection pointless. If anyone cares to crunch some AC numbers across various levels (pessimistic and optimistic with averages), that would be a great help.
2/ I would suggest the ability to use 1 ki point as a swift action to gain hide in plain sight for 1 round allowing them to vanish in a cloud of dust. :)
Perhaps Vanish as the spell for a ninjutsu with the smoke cloud fluff? Hide in Plain Sight is so convoluted, I feel that it should be written out of the rules. That's a personal opinion, though. For a more objective look at it: getting HiPS doesn't guarantee you the hide, and vanish *almost* certainly does, granting total concealment and a bonus to stealth. I'd rather go that route, TBH. This is a good one though.
Looks really good to me. However i do have 2 suggestions.
1/ The deflection bonus to AC seems to be floating out there without any explaination as to why/how i would suggest instead something like...
This being the first draft, I left out some of the fluff to condense the text. The real description of the ability is in the title "Shield of Fear." Cinematically the idea is this: a ninja pops up and the mooks are all like "Whoa!" and they get kinda shaky and reluctant. So, imagine it's like a passive intimidate but with different mechanics.
It's intended to mimic the monk's AC bonus to some degree, but I gave the bonus a type (since Shinobi can wear light armor), and deflection seemed to be the best fit. Work the fluff however you like, but I maintain that deflection is the best, playtest pending. The guys that helped me put it together are gonna help me run some playtests, and there are concerns that it will make rings of protection pointless. If anyone cares to crunch some AC numbers across various levels (pessimistic and optimistic with averages), that would be a great help.
The flaw i see in that fluff is why would that effect a dragon or balor?
Fluff aside i was working from the thing i loosely remember about how ninja had 3 rods of iron worn as a bracer and used them to deflect blows (I can't for the life of me remember the name) hence using a shield bonus.
Also deflection blocks everything all the time so which means while sleeping in his ninja pjs he still has a quasi-magical field of protection around him so if the shield bonus is not what you are looking for i'd suggest dodge. :)
2/ I would suggest the ability to use 1 ki point as a swift action to gain hide in plain sight for 1 round allowing them to vanish in a cloud of dust. :)
Perhaps Vanish as the spell for a ninjutsu with the smoke cloud fluff? Hide in Plain Sight is so convoluted, I feel that it should be written out of the rules. That's a personal opinion, though. For a more objective look at it: getting HiPS doesn't guarantee you the hide, and vanish *almost* certainly does, granting total concealment and a bonus to stealth. I'd rather go that route, TBH. This is a good one though.
Vanish sounds perfect and you're right the hide mechanics are horrible.
1/ The deflection bonus to AC seems to be floating out there without any explaination as to why/how i would suggest instead something like
I actually like this idea better myself. Maybe call it something like Shield of Blades (Ex) or something. Why a frightful presents would give a deflection bonus sounds a little weird to me. And that brings into question, what if a creature is immune or resistant to Fear? Does that get past the deflection bonus? It can be confusing. But the Shield bonus to AC sounds much more realistic. And since Shinobi can't use actual shield it doesn't run as much of a risk of making their possible equipment useless.
Aside from that, I think it's a pretty cool class so far.
Ninjas would go to places they shouldn't be able to hide. You could call it Ninja Vanish. They can vanish on a walkway basically climbing along the underside or slipping into shadows seemingly smaller than them. This is a complex explanation for something simpler if you just accept it. Only a ninja can dodge a bat's sonic radar by standing sideways in the corner.
You've got some good ideas here.
No real criticism as I know your Intimidation abilities reflect, as you say mooks seeing the Ninja going 'whoa', as occurs in many Ninja movies.
For me, when you're alone in a room with a ninja, the ninja should appear as a mook, afterall the point of the ninja is that he is spying, sabotaging, or assassinating and he's doing this always as a covert activity. So when you see ninja, the best case is that you don't realize he's a ninja, rather a servant, a commoner, someone beneath your notice. For all intents and purposes, even when visible, the ninja aren't supposed to exist...
So to gain a special intimidation power when you recognize him as a ninja seems counterintuitive. You should never recognize a ninja as a ninja, until he's already slain you. At least that's how I see it.
I will be publishing Shinobi as a list of archetypes for several PC classes who be featured in my Kaidan setting. As I am expanding the Ki powers list with basic and advanced Ki powers, as well as specific shinobi Ki powers each a limited unique list in one of five ninja houses of Kaidan. That's how I'm building the ninja concept.
Keep up the good work, though, there's never only one idea for ninja.
GP
Keep up the good work, though, there's never only one idea for ninja.
Agreed. I'm still working on ideas for ninjutsu options that don't tread on the rogue's toes too much and that open up various build options that can center themselves around attributes (like Str melee ninjas over Dex melee/ranged ninjas, ki based ninjas, Cha based infiltator ninjas... all that good stuff).
Re: Shield of Fear... I concede. Given the concepts I used to build the class, I couldn't bring myself to generalize because I was too attached to the "mooks tremble in my presence" idea.
While I don't like the idea of using metal splints as a shield thing (that manifests in a far more physical, materialistic manner than I feel a class feature should), I will work on fluffing it into a shield bonus or some such. I won't do dodge, because that removes one of the uses of ki points, and that's a pretty big feature.
What would be a good name for a ninjutsu that allows you to use Vanish with your ninja level as your caster level? What level should that ability be available? I'm tempted to default to 10 or 12, but I'm not sure.
Ninja vanish could be a ki related power.
It could be like the look over there force field in one of the Hitchhiker books.
Shuriken Storm (Ex): At 1st level, a Shinobi gains the benefit of the Rapid Shot feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites, but only for the purpose of throwing shuriken. At 10th level a Shinobi gain the benefit of the Manyshot feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites, but only for the purposes of throwing shuriken.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that Rapid Shot can't work with shuriken unless you also have Quick Draw, so I would suggest to include Quick Draw (restricted to shuriken) as a bonus feat in the Shuriken Storm class feature.
Shuriken Storm (Ex): At 1st level, a Shinobi gains the benefit of the Rapid Shot feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites, but only for the purpose of throwing shuriken. At 10th level a Shinobi gain the benefit of the Manyshot feat, even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites, but only for the purposes of throwing shuriken.Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that Rapid Shot can't work with shuriken unless you also have Quick Draw, so I would suggest to include Quick Draw (restricted to shuriken) as a bonus feat in the Shuriken Storm class feature.
Shuriken are treated as ammunition, so quick draw isn't necessary; you can use them like arrows for a bow. Normally they are not allowed for either feat, if I understand them correctly. Obviously the intent of the features is that the Shinobi CAN do those things. But while the topic is at hand: Can you use Manyshot and Rapid shot in the same full round action? Neither feats seem to specify that USING the feat activates a full round action, rather, the feats say that when you declare a full round action you may add the effects of the feat. We seem to agree that is the intent, but we are curious. Otherwise, what good is manyshot now?
As far as bonus feats go, I've been told that Shinobi should get Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw for free. I am choosing to err on the side of underpowered. Does this seem fair? Where would they go?
I think you handled fine.
Shuriken Storm, as you have written grants the ability to a Ninja as if he possessed the Rapid Shot feat, then imply how its used for a Ninja as far as throwing shuriken go. This ability further granting Manyshot at the appropriate level within the same power works as well.
To suggest that you can't really use Rapid Shot feat because you are applying it to shuriken is silly. If you actually made Rapid Shot as a free bonus feat, instead of working like Rapid Shot as part of Shuriken Storm. If you granted as a feat instead, there might be a problem. But integrating as part of a specific Extraordinary Power, works fine.
I have done the same for my Buke-Bushi (samurai warrior) build granting a first level ability to wield katana as if possessing the Exotic Weapon Proficiency for Iaijutsu Combat Style, without actually granting the feat.
This way its not a bonus feat, rather a class feature that emulates the feat as part of a larger mechanic.
I think this is the way to go, and you've already done that.
So no changes necessary, at least for that power.
GP
Great post, a while ago my friend and I were trying to make Ninjas but mine focused to much on the magic part of ninjas (yes they had a magic) and his was total real life version which is silly i think in pathfinder all things considered. This is a good balance though.
I like the idea of Ninjutsu being like Rogue Talents/Ex/Su abilities.
Critiques, I must agree the shield of fear seems a bit out there and out of place. It seems to be almost a copy and past of the Monk AC bonus, I am not sure if a Shinobi needs it considering they can actual wear light armor without penalty. Leather Armor +5 would do fine especially with the large amount of Dex they will have.
Not to mention since you made it a Wisdom based class what would prevent someone from saying heck to light armor, taking 1 level in monk and getting their wis modifer as AC, on top of Armor of Fear, and Dex. Thats a hefty amount of armor. Just some concerns. Also Fearless should probably be powered down a bit, make it a competence bonus equal to 1/4 the shinobi's level but out right immunity seems a bit silly.
Suggestions; For the ninjutus id love to see a "vanish" like ability, perhaps ninja weaponry (crafted through the ninjutsus) such as smoke bombs, poison gas bombs, blinding powder etc. Also a Flurry of Blows (For any ninja weapon) Ninjutsu would be pretty nice but requiring lets say 2 Ki Points to use would be nice.
Note: Kursi-gama (sp) is bascially just two kama's connected by a chain so, idk if it really needs to be there unless pathfinder has stated it out somewhere or you have to make it a different weapon all together.
Edit: The Fast Movement the Shinobi gets I feel should be on par with the Monks, if not better. Shinobi are known to be fast, deadly, and silent.
-Yoishan
Rapid shot does normally apply to shuriken, and it does normally stack with many shot (which normally cannot be applied to shuriken).
Instead of emulating these feats however, I would follow the monk example and have it work like two weapon fighting, even if it only requires one hand free.
The comment about not wanting shield of fear to be a dodge bonus because it would remove the ki ability, I would remind you that dodge bonuses stack with everything, including other dodge bonuses.
Also, IMO, alot of your ninjutsu do not make a lot of sense. But again that is just my opinion.
*EDIT: Another thought on the trowing shurikens topic, is the Palm Throw ability of the master throwers from CW.
@ gamer-printer: Thanks. ^^; It's still gonna get some tweaking here and there, I'm sure, and I appreciate your input.
Critiques, I must agree the shield of fear seems a bit out there and out of place. It seems to be almost a copy and past of the Monk AC bonus, I am not sure if a Shinobi needs it considering they can actual wear light armor without penalty. Leather Armor +5 would do fine especially with the large amount of Dex they will have.
It is pretty much a copy paste. But the monk's bonus is untyped, and I didn't feel that the ninja should get an untyped AC bonus. I'm steering it away from outright copying, even if everything is a little borrowed. The only really "new" mechanic here is the Replacement technique.
Not to mention since you made it a Wisdom based class what would prevent someone from saying heck to light armor, taking 1 level in monk and getting their wis modifer as AC, on top of Armor of Fear, and Dex. Thats a hefty amount of armor. Just some concerns.
"When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD." A one level dip into Monk wouldn't allow him to abuse this "high" Wisdom. And since the ki pool is one thing I couldn't exactly rewrite/refluff a whole lot, the only major change is the ability to use it for a stealth bonus. Ki is important to the Shinobi, but I feel that it is far from necessary to max out to play this class effectively. It is meant to be an option, not a requirement, like choosing a Str or Dex fighter build.
Also Fearless should probably be powered down a bit, make it a competence bonus equal to 1/4 the shinobi's level but out right immunity seems a bit silly.
I disagree entirely. Paladins get this ability much earlier on top of getting their Cha added to every save ON TOP of the normal ability score modifiers. Speaking from a fictional standpoint, ninja are supposed to be fearless, dead to themselves and dedicated to their purpose, ready to die for the clan. I generalize of course; your ninja may vary.
Also a Flurry of Blows (For any ninja weapon) Ninjutsu would be pretty nice but requiring lets say 2 Ki Points to use would be nice.
I am specifically leaving flurry out for reasons previously mentioned (I don't want to tread on other classes toes). A ninja isn't a multi-class monk/rogue munchkin. If I could have had my way, Sneak Attack wouldn't be here either, but the other four guys insisted that it just made sense. I doubt it would be popular without it anyway, so I limited it the best I could.
Note: Kursi-gama (sp) is bascially just two kama's connected by a chain so, idk if it really needs to be there unless pathfinder has stated it out somewhere or you have to make it a different weapon all together.
Edit: The Fast Movement the Shinobi gets I feel should be on par with the Monks, if not better. Shinobi are known to be fast, deadly, and silent.
Yeah, I thought I had seen the Kusari-gama in one of my books, but I was mistaken, so that needs to come out. Oriental Adventures has stats for one, though, if it matters to anyone. Yes, ninja should be fast, but I think Monks need to maintain their identity. It sounds to me like your idea of a ninja is more akin to a reflavored monk with some archetype reworking. My intent was to make something more unique than an archetype.
The comment about not wanting shield of fear to be a dodge bonus because it would remove the ki ability, I would remind you that dodge bonuses stack with everything, including other dodge bonuses.
You are indeed correct. We had always assumed that bonuses of the same type did not stack. A carry over from a previous DM we all shared. Duly noted. This changes things quite a bit; I'll get with the team and we'll see what we can make of it.
Also, IMO, alot of your ninjutsu do not make a lot of sense. But again that is just my opinion.
*EDIT: Another thought on the trowing shurikens topic, is the Palm Throw ability of the master throwers from CW.
Could you be more specific about the ninjutsu? What doesn't make sense? They don't make sense thematically, or the mechanics of the abilities don't make sense? Also, I looked up Palm Throw, and it actually achieves a lot less than rapid shot and manyshot, as long as the Shinobi has a positive Str modifier, which I'm sure most will. Palm Throw removes str damage from the thrown weapons, and since shuriken do a measly 1d2 damage, that Str to damage is sorely needed.
While the shinobi is not designed to be a damage-dealer, it is supposed to be somewhat threatening, so that it cannot be ignored. With shuriken storm and replacement, they should be bouncing around the battlefield and causing disarray among the enemy.
As for the Ninjutsu, thematically. Many of them seem to be references to a half dozen anime that I haven't watched. Mechanically, they all seem pretty sound.
As for the palm trough, I feel that enchanting them is a better way to get damage as opposed to str bonus, after all, the shinobi needs dex, wis str, and con as written. Also deadly aim would be a good way to add damage.
I just want to say that I understand certain themes are lacking with this class, namely the ability of the ninja to drop in and WTF-faceroll everything with his katana (1d12, 18-20/x3)* as seen in every awesome video-game-comic-movie in the world. I want to make it known that this was intentional. What we tried to achieve was a balance of historical "fact" (or rather, the closest things one can find on the internet, lulz), obviously fictional references to historical fact (also from the internets), and the rule of cool.
It's supposed to be something inbetween, and it's been toned back and given a role that will allow it to fit in a party, rather than trying to be a one man army, which is generally the way ninjas are portrayed.
I'm totally open to debate on certain things regarding that, but I maintain that a ninja should never out damage a fighter, out run a monk, out talent a rogue (or have better sneak attack), or out 'stalk' a ranger. When a new class does something better than a core class, then it is wrong. Just wanted that out there.
*That's a joke. Don't hurt me. I'm not a ninja.
Is that last part a reference to my last comment?
As for the Ninjutsu, thematically. Many of them seem to be references to a half dozen anime that I haven't watched. Mechanically, they all seem pretty sound.
Actually, the majority of my experience with ninjas comes from Ninja Gaiden. I guess, being a game made by Japanese people, that's arguably the same thing. But anything a real world ninja could have done is better summed up in skills and player ingenuity. Looking back on it, things like evasion, uncanny dodge... quick climb, wall running... most of this stuff seems pretty standard for a ninja. The fear effect stuff may be a little out there... I wouldn't copy/paste the rogue talents, though, tempting as it is.
I welcome any input you might have on other options, or at least direction, if not mechanics.
As for the palm trough, I feel that enchanting them is a better way to get damage as opposed to str bonus, after all, the shinobi needs dex, wis str, and con as written. Also deadly aim would be a good way to add damage.
A weakness of mine is understanding high level play balance. We haven't had many characters above ten, and we don't like starting characters above that point because we're slow enough to build 1st level characters. I say this because, you're talking about enchanting ammunition, which is destroyed if it hits, and has a 50% chance of being destroyed if you miss. +1 Shuriken would rate ~11gp a piece (sold in lots of 5, 1 for weapon + 6 for materwork + 50 per unit for enhancement of ammunition = 57gp/5 +1 shuriken), and that's at listed price. That's only for the +1s. I can't find higher values. So, if a ninja with +1 shurikens is throwing an average of 3 per round by that time, it's safe to assume that after 5-6 rounds of combat, he's thrown away over 100 gold. There are cheaper ways to enhance other ammunition, namely enhancing the bows and slings and such instead. [EDIT: This is a comment on the nature of shuriken both in the real world and mechanically; they're throw away items, and not something I see being enhanced frequently. Trying to go back over what I write and trim the abrasiveness out of it. I'm told I have that quality.]
I'm not trying to sound dismissive, but the attributes thing has been touched on. You say they "need" those stats, but really I don't think they do. The obvious choice for your highest roll is going to be Dex. You probably want the survivability from the AC bonus from Dex, especially if you have racial penalties to it for whatever insane reason. But in truth, they are all entirely optional. Each for the same reasons they are important to other classes, with the exception of Wis, and if you want a big ki pool, put a high roll there. If it's not that important to you, don't. [shrug]
And personally... I dump Con. [GASP] XD Yeah. I drive my power gaming friends up the walls. In fact, I think when I go to playtest this class myself, I'll go with a Wis/Str build and make him a melee ninja.
EDIT:
Is that last part a reference to my last comment?
Not specifically. I was just rereading some other threads we've had about a ninja class, and wanted to put that in here.
Ammunition, shurikens included are enchated in batches of 50, 1310 GP for 50 +1 shurikens. at low levels this is a bit much. but at higher levels not that much. but you would have to enchat them anyway for overcoming DR, although Magic weapon spell would be better. for damage out put deadly aim, sneak attack/sniping, and perhaps a ninjutsu that replicates weapon spec would be a good way to go in combination with palm throw.
Also, make whole can repair magic destroyed magic weapons if your caster level is at least twice the caster level of the destroyed item. It would take a lot of castings, but that is what down time is for.
Another aspect to my basic ninja class is that it is more based on a monk than a rogue. To me, monks have many class features that fit the stealthy rogue feeling.
Stealth and acrobatics are class skills. Fast movement and slow fall are both talents any rogue would want to possess. Plus already being an oriental feeling class it fits thematically with ninja more so than rogue, at least to me. The Advanced Players Guide has added two new feats that rely on the monk's slow fall feature. Spider Walk allows a monk to walk up walls vertically, on ceilings up-side-down for the distance they can slow fall, but must end on a flat surface. Cloud Walk (requires spider walk as a prerequisite) allowing the monk to Airwalk the distance of his slow fall. Remember that at 19th level a monk can fall any distance...
The above paragraph tells me Paizo would intend a ninja to be based on monk not rogue. I am following that line of thinking.
I am greatly expanding the number of available ki powers, with at least two levels of power with the second tier requiring 9 HD and a basic ki power as a prerequisite. Of course the Monk will also have access to this larger pool of ki powers, though several ki powers are exclusive to each of the five ninja clans of my setting.
At 13th level, I grant the ninja Death Attack, as per Assassin. I don't want or need Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike - that's a rogue feature, and I don't need to copy it in anyway to fit my ninja theme. To me a ninja waiting in the shadows observing his intended target for 3 rounds to attempt a Fort check attack that causes instant death is far better and far more ninja like than dealing large amounts of damage. I just as soon bypass the notion of "requires causing damage to kill" altogether.
I basically drop all the various Diamond Body, Diamond Soul features and replace them with Obsidian Strike that grant ninja like aspects to make my ninja more an alternate monk build.
While not an antithesis of the monk, you can almost say my Ninja is to the Monk class, as Anti-Paladin is to Paladin, an archetypal styled alternate class build.
This way my ninja is more mystical than as a ninja in real life. But then I play fantasy games not real life games. I only use history for inspiration not for game style.
GP
While not an antithesis of the monk, you can almost say my Ninja is to the Monk class, as Anti-Paladin is to Paladin, an archetypal styled alternate class build.
This way my ninja is more mystical than as a ninja in real life. But then I play fantasy games not real life games. I only use history for inspiration not for game style.
I agree. The monk is easily the closest thing to a traditional Ninja in the Pathfinder rules. I have read many of your posts in another ninja class thread (probably the one that got me wrapped up in this project). My comments on avoiding things like excess fast movement and flurry of blows weren't meant to imply that I don't think a monk archetype could work, or is even preferable, but rather to convey that it wasn't the goal while this was being drafted. Sorry if I sounded standoffish about that earlier.
(And any historical references I used mostly were taken with a grain of salt. My logic, too, was that in a world where monks can run 40mph and break steel doors with their bare fists after leaping over a 2-story stone wall, ninjas should have cool stuff like water running.)
I like death attack. I had thought about making it a ninjutsu for mid-higher levels. I'm still on the fence. Seems like one of those things no one would really pass up as a ninja.
I need to come up with an (Ex) ninjutsu for walking on people's heads in huge crowds, like zombie hordes... [/random musing]
Lemme share mine:
Ninja: See Rogue.
:P
If you're going to troll, please go elsewhere. I'll flag further posts like this one.
Have you thought of perhaps granting and Insight Bonus to AC for Shield of Fear/Blades
Insight bonuses rock, require you to be conscious, can be called some kind of fear thing, dont make equipment a problem, and they sound like a solution to the problem.
Call it Shield of Intimidating Aptitude or something of that nature
PS
where is the advanced Ninjitsu's? ;)
Yoi back; I see your point that you dont want it to be to similiar to a Monk though you most understand thats like saying Mage vs Sorcerer. Now originally they weren't to different except how they prepared spells and their primary stat, pathfinder did change that.
Since you are having them share a resource there are gonna be alot of simularitie, not to mention the the same weapon choices (for the most part).
It is true that the paladin gets a stronger ability, but from his is divinely fueled was my point. Where does a ninja get his? Perhaps have an ability called Resolve; Through extensive mental reinforcing the shinobi has learned to become resolve against emotional attacks, such as fear. He adds double his wisdom modifier to all will saves against negative emotion effects.
I do agree with not making it a monk copy, so maybe not a flurry of blows but id still like to see the Ninja Craft items I mentioned before.
Edit: An idea for Shurkien Storm, it is a nice ability but I have an idea just a suggestion I am on a creative roll at the moment. How about Shurkien Storm (Ex): The Shinobi fires off a volley of Shurikens equal half his Shinobi level + Dex modifier (minimum of 1) at a single or multiple targets (maximum of number of shurikens). Just an idea since they only really do 1d2 (or was it 1d3?) Just a thought.
-Yoi
Since you are having them share a resource there are gonna be alot of simularities, not to mention the the same weapon choices (for the most part).
I understand and what I meant was that I really wanted to keep similarities to a minimum.
It is true that the paladin gets a stronger ability, but from his is divinely fueled was my point. Where does a ninja get his? Perhaps have an ability called Resolve; Through extensive mental reinforcing the shinobi has learned to become resolve against emotional attacks, such as fear. He adds double his wisdom modifier to all will saves against negative emotion effects.
My opinion on the "mental reinforcing" is that all fear of death has been driven from a shinobi's mind. It isn't anything like divine bolstering of resolve as seen with the paladin, it's the fact that the shinobi considers himself dead, and living only for his purpose as a ninja. (This has no basis in fact, it's my own justification for the ability taken from fictional sources.) If I had to further justify that reasoning, it would be akin to modern day spies (in fiction). If they're caught, they reveal nothing, and intimidating them is a joke.
If immunity is broken down to bonuses, then other bonuses will be put in place to compensate.
I do agree with not making it a monk copy, so maybe not a flurry of blows but id still like to see the Ninja Craft items I mentioned before.
I think ninja craft items would fall under either craft (alchemy) or craft (trap making). As I stated earlier, much of the 'mundane' ninja mysticism can be recreated through clever use of skills already available. A practical ninja would require a clever player.
Edit: An idea for Shurkien Storm, it is a nice ability but I have an idea just a suggestion I am on a creative roll at the moment. How about Shurkien Storm (Ex): The Shinobi fires off a volley of Shurikens equal half his Shinobi level + Dex modifier (minimum of 1) at a single or multiple targets (maximum of number of shurikens). Just an idea since they only really do 1d2 (or was it 1d3?) Just a thought.
I thought about something like this, but I think it would work better as an area attack; pick a 10ft square, and everything in it gets a reflex save. You can throw a number of shuriken... blah blah blah, and that number is your total damage. The problem here is that you have a low base damage. 10d2+str (I'm quite sure you would only get to add Str once or this could be stupid) would be an average of 12 damage to everything in the square that fails the save. Reflex is a popular save. So, you'd be getting ~7 damage a shot with that... [shrug] Of course, as a full round attack, you factor in DR for each hit, so the area attack offsets that a bit...
Shuriken Storm doesn't seem all that spectacular now (all the more reason to keep things like the immunity to fear). I don't want to replace it entirely, but I don't want to buff it too much either, because I'm afraid it can get munchkined real easy-like. Perhaps having the ability to inherently deal energy damage with them and/or expanding the threat range on them would be good?
Yeah perhaps, but then you dont want it to just be a copy of the alchemist's bomb, giving elemental/energy damage seems very close to the Elemental Fist feat/class feature.
Shurkien Storm seems very fitting flavor wise but it wouldn't necessarly weak doesn't the Ki effect to remove DR? And if not the one I posted could a fair amount of damage to large numbers of small targets which is probably what it should be used for.
And the point of ninja craft would be like secert recipes that only the Shinobi would know, but I get what you mean.
Perhaps change Fearless to Emotionless, raise its level a bit and make the Shinobi have bonus to Bluff checks (kind of like stonefaced), immunity to emotion effects, and maybe something else. So that its more fitting, because from what I am getting you want them to be without Emotion (Without Emotion, perhaps name it).
Also idk if i said this but some others made a good point (so did you) if a player is good at it, they will be pull it off perfectly and as it is a Stealth/Assassination class I am not sure if it needs the Armor bonus at all.
-Yoi
Where is the advanced Ninjitsu's? ;)
They're there, they just mention level requirements instead of saying "Advanced Ninjutsu." ;D
As far as the AC bonus goes, I'm gonna revise this a bit. I wasn't aware that dodge bonuses stack, so that changes my opinions on some things. To what, I'm not yet sure. It will change though.
Where is the advanced Ninjitsu's? ;)They're there, they just mention level requirements instead of saying "Advanced Ninjutsu." ;D
As far as the AC bonus goes, I'm gonna revise this a bit. I wasn't aware that dodge bonuses stack, so that changes my opinions on some things. To what, I'm not yet sure. It will change though.
Well when you have the Shinobi 0.9 or 1.0 Id love to play it!
Well when you have the Shinobi 0.9 or 1.0 Id love to play it!
I believe it's playable as is! :D It may not be optimal in its presentation, but it's a first draft. I say go for it, and let me know how it pans out. There's still more off the table number crunching to do, but actual playtest data always wins out. Snowy weather has prevented my group from getting together since Christmas Break, but we plan to get on it ASAP.
I don't think adding elemental damage to shuriken would be really copying anything. There are several ways to get that ability, none of which are actually original, because there are items that allow it (some kind of energy quiver, IIRC). I also forgot about ki strike giving DR penetration; I removed the last two because one of them referenced "lawful" and... I forget... I don't know how to go about it quite yet. I was up til 6am, got up at 11, and I haven't had much time to actually go through, compile, and process changes that will be made.
I will work around some things to get this "Emotionless" ability set up, and we can juxtapose the progressions, see how that turns out. The armor bonus may change considerably, both in proficiencies and the AC bonus from class features.
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personally, i HATE that shurikens deal such little damage (but this falls into the prersonal expierience catagory). I can throw them threw wooden doors, and I'm not very strong, its all technique (I did train daily for a year to get good).
Maybe let the class have a "deals weapon damage as a size larger" ability? Or something similar to fighters weapon training but ki powered
Still working on Shuriken Storm. I think it's going to be the biggest problem. Here are the features that have been changed with revisions bolded.
At 5th level, a Shinobi gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a Shinobi's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his Shinobi level + his Wisdom modifier. As long as he has at least 1 point in his ki pool, he can make a ki strike. At 5th level, a ki strike allows the Shinobi's shuriken attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's shinobi level. At 10th level, his shuriken attacks are also treated as silver weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his shuriken attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness.
By spending 1 point from his ki pool (a swift action), a Shinobi can gain one of the following bonuses:
* make one additional attack at his highest attack bonus (once per round)
* increase his speed by 20 feet for 1 round
* give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round
* give himself a +5 enhancement bonus to stealth or acrobatics checks for 1 round
A Shinobi gains additional powers that consume points from his ki pool as he gains levels. The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive.
Also looking into changing this...
For this...
I need ideas for a mechanic for Shuriken Storm that will allow shuriken to remain usable into higher levels without making it dumb. Just brainstorming, I've thought that giving them a greatly expanded threat range, or a higher crit multiplier (for damage, obviously), AND/OR area attacks (I am liking this idea less and less the more I try to work it), or multiple shuriken tosses per round.
Shuriken are pathetically low damage, even with Str. At low levels, you can't let them throw fistfuls (because 4d2 =/= 1d8), and at higher levels, damage reduction makes them near useless without a very high strength score.
I think your changes are looking good and at least to me seem well balanced. As to the shuriken storm you could borrow the scaling damage concept from monk unarmed so
Lvl 01-03 = 1d2
Lvl 04-07 = 1d3
Lvl 08-11 = 1d4
Lvl 12-15 = 1d6
lvl 16-19 = 1d8
lvl 20 = 1d10
The idea that a master ninja can throw a shuriken with the force of a heavy crossbow bolt may seem a little unrealistic but forgivable in a fantasy setting i think.
You should dig through the Ninja class in the Best of Dragon Magazine issues from the 1980s. It might help flesh out anything you feel you missed.
Issue 16, July 1978 Dragon had a ninja NPC class that is reportedly overpowered for PCs. (Took me a while searching around. I wasn't even thought of in 1978.) Found a copy on Amazon for $14.99. I'll pass. If someone has that article, though, I'd look it over.
Shuriken Storm was on the back burner yesterday, and I never got to it. Hopefully the weekend will be more fruitful.
I have to say, normally I'm all NO NEW CLASSES! but this looks fun as hell, and I'd let a player use this class.
I have to say, normally I'm all NO NEW CLASSES! but this looks fun as hell, and I'd let a player use this class.
Thanks, Kryzbyn! :)
How do you guys feel about making shuriken storm have a higher base damage and follow the laws of conservation of ninjutsu? Say... a ninja can make a full round attack to throw one shuriken per enemy up to his class level, and for a ki point, the damage increases to a d4 for each shuriken. That's straight off the top of my head with no real consideration for balance. Or have two options: the multi-target storm, or the single target storm?
Maybe Shot on the Run should be a bonus feat added in with Rapid Shot and Manyshot?
MAJOR problem with Replacement.
Add the word "melee" to modify the word "attack" where appropriate. A ninja should not be able to use replacement to get behind an archer from 180 ft.
Playtest fix on the fly. XD