Halfling Rogue... or Shadowdancer


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hi all,

first of all, may your 2011 be great!

I have been playing RPGs for ages (starting with the original D&D), but I am new to Pathfinder.
I have 3rd level rogue halfling that is about to level up and I am in doubt about my future levels.

Would it be better to go pure rogue, or, at level 6, when I meet all the requirements, turn it into a shadowdancer?
I want my typical rogue skills to stay high (except maybe Sleight of Hand), but I also want my character to be good in combat situations, to make sure that I don't have to wait patiently (potentially fall asleep) during long combat sessions.

The shadowdancer seems to be more combat oriented, but I am not happy with the lack of Sneak Attack (Halfling weapons deal a stupid amount of damage otherwise) and fewer skill points.

On the other hand, the pure rogue is a bit boring and halflings are slow and can't see in the dark.

Looking forward to hear the advice of experienced players 'round here :)

Sovereign Court

Definitely pure rogue.

First thing to know about the change from 3.5 to PF is you don't need to Prc anymore. Its ok. Base classes rock now and Prc's tend to be a drop in power mechanically.

Straight rogue boring? You've never had it so good :P. Skills pooled to make you far more skillable, D8HD, rogue talents!

Do you have access to the APG however?- as one of the archetypes in there might catch your eye. You can take a look at them on D20PFSRD or possible the PRD (can provide links if you need).

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

A friend plays in the high level (currently 18th) campaign I run as a halfling fighter 2/rogue 10/shadowdancer 6. (I think that's the right layout, it may need a swap between rogue and shadowdancer but I think he took more rogue levels to keep up sneak attack). I have seen him in play since he was 2nd level.

He is a highly effective mobile/finesse meleer, and amazing with stealth and the hide in plain sight ability. He uses the shadow jump ability to great effect (and of course is always trying for crazy stunts like shadow jumping onto a dragon's back, etc.). He definitely loves gaining Darkvision from the Shadowdancer classes. He doesn't do insane amounts of damage but is very good at setting up flanking for sneak attack (that's player tactics more than specific build) and does well to try to make himself a target (being small with high dex he is hard to hit). Plus the "summon flanking buddy" ability Shadowdancers have can be used to fun extent.

That said... it's all about what you want to play. Absolutely a straight up rogue would be a lot of fun--rogues are downright one of the most flexible classes you have and you can do all kinds of cool concepts with them. But IMO, so, equally, would be a shadowdancer. It just depends on your vision for the character and what you think would be the most fun.

If you do take Shadowdancer, remember Shadow Jump is a standard action to use, so you can't use it to move and then attack the same turn. It is still an extremely useful ability.

The Exchange

I'd stick with the thief. There are 3.0/3.5/PF options which can give you speed, darkvision, and teleport.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Melyanna wrote:

I have 3rd level rogue halfling that is about to level up and I am in doubt about my future levels.

Would it be better to go pure rogue, or, at level 6, when I meet all the requirements, turn it into a shadowdancer?

...

On the other hand, the pure rogue is a bit boring and halflings are slow and can't see in the dark.

Looking forward to hear the advice of experienced players 'round here :)

It all depends on what you want to do with the character. For a combat-focused rogue, you should decide whether you want to be a damage dealer (keep Sneak Attack high) or impose other effects. If you're thinking of switching to shadowdancer, then you should be looking at rogue talents like Bleeding Attack, Combat Trick, Slow Reactions, and Surprise Attack; if you have the APG, then Befuddling Strike, Distracting Attack (if there is another rogue in the party), and Positioning Attack may be useful. Agile Maneuvers can help you make use of the rest of the Combat Expertise feat chain (other than just Improved Feint). Dazzling Display can inflict penalties on all foes within 30 ft and Shatter Defenses sets up additional Sneak Attacks. Enforcer (APG) can be useful in some circumstances to inflict penalties on foes. Extra Rogue Talent (APG)can be very useful. Fleet improves your base speed. Gang Up (APG) allows flanking bonuses without actually having to flank. Go Unnoticed (APG) is almost like a limited Hide in Plain Sight. Lunge allows you to attack with reach. Step Up, Following Step (APG), and Step Up and Strike (APG) can provide additional movement during combat. Taunt (APG) allows you to use Bluff in place of Intimidate to Demoralize. Toughness gives extra hit points. Under and Over (APG) can be useful if your GM uses foes that grapple a lot.

Aside from the Fleet feat, there are some other ways to improve on your speed: Taking a level of barbarian improves your base speed by 10 ft (note that this is not an enhancement bonus, so it stacks with boots of striding and springing, expeditious retreat, haste, or longstrider); taking a level of bard, you can select expeditious retreat as a spell known; taking a level of cleric with the Travel domain also improves your base speed by 10 ft, as well as giving you longstrider as a domain spell; taking a level of druid gives you access to longstrider; taking a level of ranger allows you to use wands of longstrider without needing a Use Magic Device check; taking a level of alchemist (APG), you can select expeditious retreat as one of your starting formulae; taking a level of inquisitor (APG), you can select expeditious retreat as a spell known. Taking a level of oracle (APG), the following mysteries/revelations may be useful: Battle - Surprising Charge and Flame - Cinder Dance.

Being able to see in the dark is easy enough to gain through spells and/or magic items, so don't let that drive your character's development.


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:

Definitely pure rogue.

First thing to know about the change from 3.5 to PF is you don't need to Prc anymore. Its ok. Base classes rock now and Prc's tend to be a drop in power mechanically.

Straight rogue boring? You've never had it so good :P. Skills pooled to make you far more skillable, D8HD, rogue talents!

Do you have access to the APG however?- as one of the archetypes in there might catch your eye. You can take a look at them on D20PFSRD or possible the PRD (can provide links if you need).

+1

U might notice that all the base classes were boosted very nicely, then you might notice that the prestige classes didnt change much. This means that pure classes mostly work better than multi classing into prestige classes.

To solve the darkvision problem, buy yourself some goggles :)


Wow, thank you so much to all of you for your helpful comments!

First of all, we are not using the APG, only the very basic manuals, ie. the core rulebook and bestiary.
This is because the other manuals are somewhat difficult to be found in my native language. (Not a big problem for me, but for my game master is is a problem).
I can, however, access most of the main 3.5 prestige classes, at least those from the most generic manuals (no Races of Stone, for example).
Magic objects are very rare in our campaing, so goggles or other spells to see in the dark might be a bit difficult to be found.

I definitely want to keep my rogue combat based: our campaing has a mix of investigation, narration and combat, but combat prevails over the other two, as our game master is very "combat oriented", if that makes sense. :)

Sovereign Court

With the tools you have, definitely stick to straight rogue :).


Dipping two levels Shadowdancer might have been worth it if you were faster. A halfling has little use for the spring attack tree, and then a 3 feat tax is horrible. For a human, it is better, as he is faster, and has a feat extra.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Kamelguru wrote:
Dipping two levels Shadowdancer might have been worth it if you were faster. A halfling has little use for the spring attack tree, and then a 3 feat tax is horrible. For a human, it is better, as he is faster, and has a feat extra.

The halfling in our party has made clever use of spring attack, and his AC when avoiding AOOs is insane. Some of the APG feats for Small creatures probably could dovetail well with a mobile halfling.

Boots of Striding and Springing amongst many other possible solutions to the speed issue don't have to make the path non-viable... if of course that's the path the player wants to take.


DeathQuaker wrote:
Kamelguru wrote:
Dipping two levels Shadowdancer might have been worth it if you were faster. A halfling has little use for the spring attack tree, and then a 3 feat tax is horrible. For a human, it is better, as he is faster, and has a feat extra.

The halfling in our party has made clever use of spring attack, and his AC when avoiding AOOs is insane. Some of the APG feats for Small creatures probably could dovetail well with a mobile halfling.

Boots of Striding and Springing amongst many other possible solutions to the speed issue don't have to make the path non-viable... if of course that's the path the player wants to take.

Yes, the halfling is viable if you have magical resources, which is what made me think that this campaign, which is supposed to have little in terms of such, would be harder. I played a halfling rogue with buckets of minor magical items in 3e, and he was lots of fun.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Kamelguru wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Kamelguru wrote:
Dipping two levels Shadowdancer might have been worth it if you were faster. A halfling has little use for the spring attack tree, and then a 3 feat tax is horrible. For a human, it is better, as he is faster, and has a feat extra.

The halfling in our party has made clever use of spring attack, and his AC when avoiding AOOs is insane. Some of the APG feats for Small creatures probably could dovetail well with a mobile halfling.

Boots of Striding and Springing amongst many other possible solutions to the speed issue don't have to make the path non-viable... if of course that's the path the player wants to take.

Yes, the halfling is viable if you have magical resources, which is what made me think that this campaign, which is supposed to have little in terms of such, would be harder. I played a halfling rogue with buckets of minor magical items in 3e, and he was lots of fun.

Other folks suggested fleet and classes that have means of boosting speed if/when it is necessary.

I agree it's fun... a lot of the less powerful magic items are some of the best ones use wise.


it might be nice to see what choices you've made in the build already to give you a more informed opinion, but i'm inclined to say stick with rogue, though the two level shadowdancer dip is very tempting.


angryscrub wrote:
it might be nice to see what choices you've made in the build already to give you a more informed opinion, but i'm inclined to say stick with rogue, though the two level shadowdancer dip is very tempting.

If you're going to go with 2 levels, why not 3 for the shadow companion?

Also, you might ask your DM if he would allow a house rule to have say hide in plain sight be an advanced rogue talent in lieu of looking to take the PrC.

Depending on the resources you have available you might wish to look at the feat hellcat stealth (chelliax source book). If you do get the APG I would recommend the feat Combat Patrol. Speaking towards that you could likely get references for them online as I think both are in the SRD.

-James

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