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I have to agree that claws on the feet smells of all sorts of cheese. The only way I could see it working is if they were treated as a rake attack and you would have to have another set of claws to get these. Unless you are grappling I just don't see someone attacking someone else with their toenails.
If I were a GM I would only allow this if it fit a good character concept (e.g. character disability). Otherwise this just borders on munchkin gaming.
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Natural Weapon Ranger/Fiend Totem Barbarian with armor spikes coming up...
Seriously, three secondary natural attacks augmented with ranger spells and Multiattack along with iteratives all bundled up in the form of a raging barbarian. Ridiculous? You decide.
Naturally rage rounds will be a problem in prolonged combat situations, but otherwise seems solid to me.
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Within reason, feet claws are fine, especially when they are being used in place of any hand attacks.
Maybe your character is armless. Maybe he is constantly eating grass and has to rely on other appendages for attacks. I am a huge proponent of flavor for roleplaying. When that rolls over into gaming mechanics, balance obviously need to be considered.
Darigaaz, the natural attack fighter was very likely intended for monsters or for non-released race/class player content. It doesn't really negate the fact that natural attacks are a severely overlooked area by Paizo and could use some TLC.
For comparison to the ranger options it basically comes down to
1-5 NA is better
6-10 NA and TWF are roughly the same
11+ NA start falling farther and farther behind
20 NA is dealing significantly less damage
Thread necromancy at it's finest/worst.
With the release of Ultimate Combat and the new options in there for this particular build I thought it was a good time to resurrect this thread about my favorite melee class. With the new options a significant DPR boost can be achieved that should alleviate the 11th level drop off for this build.
First things first to get the most out of this book this build is going to need to multi-class, preferably into Monk.
Secondly though expensive (feat wise) the normally horrible feat Feral Combat Training becomes almost brokenly powerful when combined with a Monk.
The 2 biggest problems for the natural weapon wielder are:
1). The lack of extra attacks as the wielder levels
2). The low base damage from the attacks themselves
Both of these can easily be resolved with a 1-4 level dip into monk (3 levels if you can get access to a Monks Robe).
With a 1 level monk dip you can you will pick up the 2 most important abilities to max out your combat abilities (Improved unarmed Strike and Flurry of Blows).
Once you add Feral Combat training feat you can now add your natural attacks to your flurry of blows (this gives you 5 attacks a round) and your damage with your natural attacks jumps up to 1D6 each. You also recover the lost point of Bab from switching down to a 3/4 bab class but only while flurrying.
If you continue to a 4 level dip in Monk your base damage will bump up to a 1D8 with every shot and open you up to the highest damage increase you can get.
At this point the Feat Improved Natural Attack becomes almost mandatory, your natural attacks jump up to 2D6 per hit though your unarmed strikes are still at 1D8 though (if you can get a Monks Robe you become 2D8 Natural Attacks and 1D10 unarmed strikes with only a 3 level dip into monk).
The real cutoff for Natural weapon rangers has always been 11th level where your # of attacks per round gets surpassed by all other martial classes. For this build at that level (ranger 7/Monk 4) with no gear and not fighting a favored enemy your Ranger/Monk will have, during a Full Attack Action and flurry of Blows 7 attacks a round at 1D8 and 2D6 damage:
+11/+11/+11/+10/+10/+5/+0 for
2D6+10/2D6+10/2D6+10/1D8+10/1D8+10/1D8+10 damage.
Throw on a monk's robe, an amulet of might fists and burn a feat for one of the style feats (I like Boar for the bleed damage and change to damage type) and the DPR per round quickly becomes obnoxious.
Now to answer some of the questions that are inevitably coming saying this will not work, let's take them in order.
1. You can't flurry of Blows with natural weapons.
If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
2. Natural Attacks get a -5 to hit and only do half str damage and half Power Attack Damage.
While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
This has always allowed a monk to apply full power attack bonus during the flurry of blows.
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
Finally the feat progression for this goes something like this (assuming an half-orc with toothy) and can be accomplished by 4th level (3rd if you use a human with the adopted trait for getting the bite attack)
Ranger 1: Weapon Focus (Bite)
Ranger 2: combat style: Aspect (Claws)
3rd level: Weapon Focus (Claws)
Monk Bonus: Feral Combat Style (Claws)
Monk 2: Feral Combat Style (Bite)
Yes this is brokenly over-powered but as far as I can tell, totally legal.
Also remember you cannot wear armor with monk levels so that could be a problem. Wis will help in gaining ranger spells and armor class from monk.
Won't you want power attack at first level or is weapon focus a pre-req? The good tihng about the monk dip is also the +4 to will saves. This is interesting but no armor might be a problem.
I wonder if the monk of the sacred mountain might be worth it for toughness since your AC will be low.
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Also remember you cannot wear armor with monk levels so that could be a problem. Wis will help in gaining ranger spells and armor class from monk.
Won't you want power attack at first level or is weapon focus a pre-req? The good tihng about the monk dip is also the +4 to will saves. This is interesting but no armor might be a problem.
I wonder if the monk of the sacred mountain might be worth it for toughness since your AC will be low.
Actually you can wear armor with the monk levels it just costs you the wis bonus to AC and your fast movement. Not a big deal really.
As for Power attack yes it would be nice to have early but since you need weapon focus on any natural attack you want to get feral combat training with that takes priority. The earliest I can see taking it is 5th level.
Have you looked at 1 Ranger / x Druid using the Shapeshifting Hunter feat? Wild Shape might solve some of the attack issues. Druid spellcasting wouldn't hurt either.
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It's worth noting that there may be value in the Sacred Mountain monk variant for this build. Not only does Feral Combat Training still apply, but you also get a +1 nat. armor bonus, and Toughness as a bonus feat to help offset the feat-intensity of this build.
That is definitely an option, personally I would prefer holding on to the Evasion ability instead. Since we are stacking this with Ranger I'd choose to wear the Mithril Breastplate until picking up the monks robe. Fixes the AC problem and doesn't cost me a class ability I can't replace with an extra feat or temporary buff (potion/wand/spell).
It's worth noting that there may be value in the Sacred Mountain monk variant for this build. Not only does Feral Combat Training still apply, but you also get a +1 nat. armor bonus, and Toughness as a bonus feat to help offset the feat-intensity of this build.
Also you will want an amulet of mighty fists so you will not be getting an amulet of natural armor. The main thing is you have a really good reflex save and evasion. Also you still get still mind.
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Aye. I can see where you're going. I would personally prefer the higher wisdom, better spellcasting, no armor, rely-on-HP-combined-with-reflex-primary-to-get-through-AOEs build though ;)It's worth noting that there may be value in the Sacred Mountain monk variant for this build. Not only does Feral Combat Training still apply, but you also get a +1 nat. armor bonus, and Toughness as a bonus feat to help offset the feat-intensity of this build.That is definitely an option, personally I would prefer holding on to the Evasion ability instead. Since we are stacking this with Ranger I'd choose to wear the Mithril Breastplate until picking up the monks robe. Fixes the AC problem and doesn't cost me a class ability I can't replace with an extra feat or temporary buff (potion/wand/spell).
Interesting build, so what your saying is you prefer to take all or half the damage from reflex save effects and have an extra point of armor and (at most) 20 more hit points instead of guaranteed half or no damage instead and still get the extra 20 hitpoints by burning the spare feat?
If taking a monk variant I would take either MoMS, Tetori, ManuverMaster with this build. It doesnt hurt to loose FoB if you have several natural attack (hands and feet claws, bite). By taking one of those you could net a free combat maneuver at -2 with a full attack (mm), No negatives while grappling (tetori), or being able to have a couple styles up and quick access to Dragon Style feats that with feral combat training would give 2x strength on first attack and 1.5 strength on all the others. If you paired that with Tiger style, oh lord are you a nasty mommajoma.
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If taking a monk variant I would take either MoMS, Tetori, ManuverMaster with this build. It doesnt hurt to loose FoB if you have several natural attack (hands and feet claws, bite). By taking one of those you could net a free combat maneuver at -2 with a full attack (mm), No negatives while grappling (tetori), or being able to have a couple styles up and quick access to Dragon Style feats that with feral combat training would give 2x strength on first attack and 1.5 strength on all the others. If you paired that with Tiger style, oh lord are you a nasty mommajoma.
I looked at all 3 of those archetypes and have to HIGHLY recommend you don't take them.
Giving up FoB would cost you a massive amount of damage (you only get your full strength and full power attack added to natural attacks because of FoB) and take away your ability to use your monk level as Bab. Admittedly this is only a single point since we are only going 4 levels of Monk but still, I prefer not to give up any to hit if I don't have to.
Being a front-line build, AOEs are less likely to come up except in specific circumstances (like the goons all having energy res). Also, as a ranger, you will be getting Evasion and Imp. Evasion as class features already, it just takes a bit longer. Also, since you get reflex primary, you are less likely to take that full damage until you get to that point.
In addition, having a bit better wisdom means that your will saves will be better, as well as AC (from wisdom bonus), and you will have more spells per day. Since rangers get Barkskin (a 10 min/lv spell), an amulet of nat armor is somewhat of a waste. An AOMF is also sort of a necessity for any natural weapon build.
It's not the AoE's we are concerned about. Evasion reduces the damage from ALL attacks that offer you half damage from reflex saves (AoE's, Traps, Single target spells, etc.). Putting that off until you get it at ranger level means you don't get it until 15th level (the end of most AP's) and you would never get improved evasion (you need to be 20th level to get that one).
I prefer taking no damage at all rather then hope that I have enough HP's left to live through that assault.As to the better wisdom that has nothing to do with these choices. Neither of those archetypes give you a wis bonus so that argument is immaterial.
I think it could depend on what you are fighting and the type of the campaign. Not fighting many blasters or things with breath weapons and no traps I do not think evasion will be too useful. I think it ultimately will depend on the campiagn. Lots of monsters that are beatsticks toughness will be more useful.
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I'm not sure about this.
First, how does your claw damage become 2d6? It starts at 1d4 and Improved Natural Weapon only bumps it up to a 1d6. If you're considering the Claw as taking on the base damage of the Monk's Improved Unarmed Strike, I think you're incorrect. I see that it says "effects that augment an unarmed strike" (UC Pg 101) and I can see how it might be interpreted that way, so I put this into the 'fuzzy' category that falls to DM interpretation.
Second, "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks." (PRPG Pg 57-58) The Feral Combat Training allows you to use natural attacks with your flurry, that is, as a part of your allowed flurry attacks.
I think that the intention is that you can mix Natural Attacks into your flurry, not increase the number of attacks you get over all.
The Flurry ability is a full round action that doesn't combine with the Full Attack Action, and allows you to make "one additional attack" (PRPG Pg 57) (or two or more dependent on level) with an Unarmed attack (or Natural attack with the Feral Combat Training feat) and then NO MORE, as you cannot mix in more Natural Attacks or Manufactured Weapons. I don't think you can exceed the number of attacks your Flurry allows in any way.
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I'm not sure about this.
First, how does your claw damage become 2d6? It starts at 1d4 and Improved Natural Weapon only bumps it up to a 1d6. If you're considering the Claw as taking on the base damage of the Monk's Improved Unarmed Strike, I think you're incorrect. I see that it says "effects that augment an unarmed strike" (UC Pg 101) and I can see how it might be interpreted that way, so I put this into the 'fuzzy' category that falls to DM interpretation.
It really comes down to the question of "is the monk ability to do more damage with an unarmed strike an effect that augments an unarmed strike?" If it is then the feral combat training bumps the damage up.
Second, "A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks." (PRPG Pg 57-58) The Feral Combat Training allows you to use natural attacks with your flurry, that is, as a part of your allowed flurry attacks.
I think that the intention is that you can mix Natural Attacks into your flurry, not increase the number of attacks you get over all.
The Flurry ability is a full round action that doesn't combine with the Full Attack Action, and allows you to make "one additional attack" (PRPG Pg 57) (or two or more dependent on level) with an Unarmed attack (or Natural attack with the Feral Combat Training feat) and then NO MORE, as you cannot mix in more Natural Attacks or Manufactured Weapons. I don't think you can exceed the number of attacks your Flurry allows in any way.
Well first per core rules a Flurry is a full attack action (CRB pg 57, first sentence of flurry of blows).
This part comes down to how iterative attacks and natural attacks interact.
Per Raw if you have natural attacks and iterative attacks you get to take both every time you do a full attack action in this case claw/claw/bite + however many normal iterative attacks you get based on Bab.
The Feral Training feat specifically states that you can use that natural weapon WITH your flurry of blows attacks not in place of. So you would still keep your regular natural attacks as normal and your normal FoB attacks plus whatever penalties FoB applies (in this case the TWF -2 penalty).
Remember as you just quoted all FoB does is grant one additional attack (2 at 8th), so you get your regular iterative attacks + one additional attack from FoB + your regular Natural Attacks (as the devs have ruled on mixing these two over and over again). In this case at BaB 11 you get 3 iterative attacks + 1 FoB Attack and 3 Natural attacks = 7 attacks a round at full strength on each.
Nasty, potent and pretty legal as far as the errata is showing.
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So is that it? Noone else finds it a bit OP to suddenly have a class that can routinely do 6 attacks a round at 6th level or easily do 4D6 (or 4D8) vital strikes at 7th level ?
I'm really looking for a whole in my build, something to keep this level of cheese from being legal but I can't seem to come up with anything.
A couple spells that i don't know if they were mentioned or not, but.
Strong Jaw found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw
allows your claws to be 2 sizes bigger.
Then cast a thorn body found here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/thorn-body
gives you an additional 1d6 damage to all natural attacks and unarmed strikes.
It just gets better and better.
So is that it? Noone else finds it a bit OP to suddenly have a class that can routinely do 6 attacks a round at 6th level or easily do 4D6 (or 4D8) vital strikes at 7th level ?
I'm really looking for a whole in my build, something to keep this level of cheese from being legal but I can't seem to come up with anything.
Finally the feat progression for this goes something like this (assuming an half-orc with toothy) and can be accomplished by 4th level (3rd if you use a human with the adopted trait for getting the bite attack)Ranger 1: Weapon Focus (Bite)
Ranger 2: combat style: Aspect (Claws)
3rd level: Weapon Focus (Claws)
Monk Bonus: Feral Combat Style (Claws)
Monk 2: Feral Combat Style (Bite)Yes this is brokenly over-powered but as far as I can tell, totally legal.
How are you taking the monk bonus feat as feral combat style (I can't find a style) and not scorpion? Otherwise I can follow everything to implement in a PFS I'm making: tiefling with bite racial and this build looks very fun =)
Totally out of date I know but worth mentioning:
If your DM is okay with it (mine is) take a look at Bestiary 1 Lizardfolk.
Claw Claw Bite, CR 1, +2 STR/CON, -2 INT, +5 Natural AC
That's why I found this thread. :D