This derailed thread is full of EPIC FAIL.
It also possesses a large amount differential pressure ;)
Which is ironic in a way, since the lady who posed for that picture *is* a gamer IRL :-)
Well, to be completely honest, that Time Thief cover wasn't really helping. I'm not saying she looks bad, but whatever a time thief is, I don't picture them like that. That looks like harem chick. Nothing wrong with harem chicks, but it just doesn't fit the title.
Seoni does fit - she's a sorceress, her charisma is important for her role, and she does look like a sorceress - a hot sorceress trying to appeal to my secondary brain maybe, but definitely a sorceress.
And that's just one example. Paizo's pics always seem appropriate, even when they're cheesecake.
Personally, I'd have given that time thief a big hourglass instead of a second knife. That alone would have helped a lot!
When the blogger says that paizo are 'full of gender fail' it is perfectly acceptable, because she is using a term from net dialect, which is understood by digital natives (I.E. the people most likely to be reading her blog.)
I still can't respect her, because that "dialect" is just stupid. I sometimes use "internet speech", but mostly in jest, never to be taken seriously, and usually in an ironic manner.
So that's the gist of it: I can't take her seriously. When I read someone writing "They're full of gender fail" I can but laugh at her.
So this cause is unlikely to get any sympathy from me. Frothing rants delivered in "joke language" is going to amuse me, nothing more.
She's basically a lolmolly. She can't hope to become more than a meme. When I read her stuff, from now on I'll probably imagine angry kittens complaining about the bad treatment by tomcats. Complete with cutely spelled catchphrases.
"Feminism kitty prints rants on her printress!"
Run the gamut from brains to breasts?!? Who the heck says that the two are mutually exclusive, let alone that they're opposite extremes?!? I know plenty of women with ample supply of both. I know that you deliberately worded your post to sound controversial as a joke, but I think that's going too far.
Who the heck says I think what you accuse me of saying? Aren't you, in fact, emulating that blogger by doing your level best to find offence?
It also possesses a large amount differential pressure ;)
Now look who's a differential pressure transducer.
(Seriously: I don't want to hear/read things like differential pressure in my spare time.)
That ain't right.No, it's just become a discussion on what is and isn't proper English, that's all...We made it to page 5 already?
Did we succeed in driving out sexism in rpg's yet? Did we finally answer the riddle of whether social responsibility to gender equality should drive art more than how well it sells a product?
I'm just going to assume we did.
Hooray internet! Another victory for you!
I think it's the most excellent example of magician's patter ever: Do not look at her breasts! Instead, listen to my dazzling display of pedagogical pedantry and discussion of grammatical esoterica!
And I'm not buying the fail = failure² argument, either. When "epic fail" is used to describe the most trivial crap, a regular fail is even less significant.
Oh, and here's a link to photos of a bunch of Olympic athletes, to show that the definition of "fit" or "muscular" isn't universal for all activities.
Oh, and here's a link to photos of a bunch of Olympic athletes, to show that the definition of "fit" or "muscular" isn't universal for all activities.
The problem is this is that with the weightlifters there it just looks like a bunch of ripped and thin people hanging out with the token fat dude/ette. The differences between them when you take away the weightlifter and sumai are few, if any.
Oh, and here's a link to photos of a bunch of Olympic athletes, to show that the definition of "fit" or "muscular" isn't universal for all activities.The problem is this is that with the weightlifters there it just looks like a bunch of ripped and thin people hanging out with the token fat dude/ette. The differences between them when you take away the weightlifter and sumai are few, if any.
Even with the two you excluded are we looking at the same photos, I can see massive differences, lean and lanky for the distance runners, muscular for those that require explosive power.
If we were to add in the body shapes of non athletic people - for a fighters/Magic Users perspective then that would be more interesting comparison.
Just let's wait until Sebastian unleashes his penultimate argument !
Does that mean he has one more? Or two more? Someone pass me a bowl full of balls, please. I need to visualize this.
;p
Oh, and here's a link to photos of a bunch of Olympic athletes, to show that the definition of "fit" or "muscular" isn't universal for all activities.The problem is this is that with the weightlifters there it just looks like a bunch of ripped and thin people hanging out with the token fat dude/ette. The differences between them when you take away the weightlifter and sumai are few, if any.Even with the two you excluded are we looking at the same photos, I can see massive differences, lean and lanky for the distance runners, muscular for those that require explosive power.
If we were to add in the body shapes of non athletic people - for a fighters/Magic Users perspective then that would be more interesting comparison.
I'd need these people in the shot to see differences. To me it just looks like a bunch of fitties hanging out. Sure, some have a little more musculature and definition, but in reality it's not THAT much more. I'm sure they all walk and carry themselves differently, though. Still, this isn't doing much to show that "fit" and "muscular" are not universal concepts, at least where the olympics is concerned.
I'd need these people in the shot to see differences. To me it just looks like a bunch of fitties hanging out. Sure, some have a little more musculature and definition, but in reality it's not THAT much more. I'm sure they all walk and carry themselves differently, though. Still, this isn't doing much to show that "fit" and "muscular" are not universal concepts, at least where the olympics is concerned.Oh, and here's a link to photos of a bunch of Olympic athletes, to show that the definition of "fit" or "muscular" isn't universal for all activities.The problem is this is that with the weightlifters there it just looks like a bunch of ripped and thin people hanging out with the token fat dude/ette. The differences between them when you take away the weightlifter and sumai are few, if any.Even with the two you excluded are we looking at the same photos, I can see massive differences, lean and lanky for the distance runners, muscular for those that require explosive power.
If we were to add in the body shapes of non athletic people - for a fighters/Magic Users perspective then that would be more interesting comparison.
Really? I see some pretty major body-type differences, even among some similar athletes. Look at the second picture, wrestling, basketball, judo, football, and gymnastics all have very different builds. Or compare the marathoners and the decathlete picture to the sprinters, they have trained for massively different events, and it shows. Even among the same sport, compare Tony Gonzalez to Jeff Garcia to Terrel Owens, each of which have a different body type which is justified by their different focus.
The natural bodybuilding vs weightlifting vs bodybuilding is also a particularly noteworthy one, each train just as hard but for completely different things. And if you think that the weightlifter looks like the token fat dude, consider that he holds the squat record for the IPF and according to his wiki page he can do a standing backflip and has a 3ft vertical jump, pretty impressive feats of athleticism from a 370lb man.
Anyways, maybe because this is part of what I've been studying the differences in body type look obvious to me, but you've got to at least admit that looking at the group of sprinters compared to the group of distance runners that there is a massive, obvious difference. Or look at the female athletes and tell me the golfer and boxer aren't worlds apart from each other physically, and equally far from the gymnasts, biker, skater, and basketball player.
Edit: also, I don't mean to jump all over you or anything, it's just that the differences seem obvious to me. Also, I'm not that sure what this has to do with cheesecake art, so this may be really off topic.
I'd need these people in the shot to see differences. To me it just looks like a bunch of fitties hanging out. Sure, some have a little more musculature and definition, but in reality it's not THAT much more. I'm sure they all walk and carry themselves differently, though. Still, this isn't doing much to show that "fit" and "muscular" are not universal concepts, at least where the olympics is concerned.Oh, and here's a link to photos of a bunch of Olympic athletes, to show that the definition of "fit" or "muscular" isn't universal for all activities.The problem is this is that with the weightlifters there it just looks like a bunch of ripped and thin people hanging out with the token fat dude/ette. The differences between them when you take away the weightlifter and sumai are few, if any.Even with the two you excluded are we looking at the same photos, I can see massive differences, lean and lanky for the distance runners, muscular for those that require explosive power.
If we were to add in the body shapes of non athletic people - for a fighters/Magic Users perspective then that would be more interesting comparison.
Really? I see some pretty major body-type differences, even among some similar athletes. Look at the second picture, wrestling, basketball, judo, football, and gymnastics all have very different builds. Or compare the marathoners and the decathlete picture to the sprinters, they have trained for massively different events, and it shows. Even among the same sport, compare Tony Gonzalez to Jeff Garcia to Terrel Owens, each of which have a different body type which is justified by their different focus.
The natural bodybuilding vs weightlifting vs bodybuilding is also a particularly noteworthy one, each train just as hard but for completely...
Not at all taking it as a slight or anything like that. But I wonder if your view of them would be the same if the event they trained for was not listed beneath their name and picture. Also, yeah, when you study for something, the differences seem pretty obvious. Double also, I'd LOVE to see a clip of the bodybuilder doing that backflip unassisted. I think their knees would explode like a rotten tomato, but if they hold the record for the squat....
Just let's wait until Sebastian unleashes his penultimate argument !It will be highly impactful.
But not as impactful as the following one. That is what they teach in trial practice anyway. Everything in threes with the final one in the list being the most important, right?
Not at all taking it as a slight or anything like that. But I wonder if your view of them would be the same if the event they trained for was not listed beneath their name and picture. Also, yeah, when you study for something, the differences seem pretty obvious. Double also, I'd LOVE to see a clip of the bodybuilder doing that backflip unassisted. I think their knees would explode like a rotten tomato, but if they hold the record for the squat....
Well, it took me 7 pictures to realize that their event even was listed(I started from the bottom 3 where there wasn't a name and event listed), so my view was pretty much the same before figuring that out and after I saw it. It was pretty obvious what sport a few of them were in just based on what they were holding of what their body type was, so I can't say for certain I would have been completely unbiased if they had all been in the exact same pose with no props. I'm still pretty sure I'd have got half to 3/4 of them right, particularly the different running events and the gymnasts, but you're right that I can't say for certain.
As for the video, I'd be interested in seeing it too but I believe it. I've known amateur and semi-professional powerlifters who are way more fit and athletic than they appear, all that power gives them a ton of explosiveness that can translate to improved performance in a number of different areas. There's a reason defensive linemen and linebackers in professional football are able to run down quarterbacks despite weighing 300+ after all. Despite their bulk they have a ton of power and are fast and athletic enough that the speed disparity is supposed to be jarring for college players who make it to the NFL.
Way back in the land of ancient Greece they had this concept we now call the "heroic nude." Gods and demigods and heroes were generally underdressed to highlight their supernormal nature and capabilities. I think this eventually filtered down to us in the form of Frazetta et al, but it didn't mean ordinary people dressed in this way. However, it may be that the power of the naked body conveys something of this semi-divine character and arresting presence that the classical artists were aware of. I guess the crucial difference between cheesecake and classical art of heroes and heroines is "gravitas."
Of course then I think, "gravy." Not tasty with cheesecake.
I'd LOVE to see a clip of the bodybuilder doing that backflip unassisted. I think their knees would explode like a rotten tomato, but if they hold the record for the squat....
Well if you fast forward to 5:00 in this clip you'll see him do a cartwheel after winning his match at the 2000 Olympics....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYO4YWgLcko
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It's like comics where they introduce the plain flat-chested teenage girl in one issue and after going through a succession of artists, she goes up a cup size and gets a fashion makeover each one until a few years later she looks like a comic-book pin-up.
Jubilee or Heather Hudson, for example? Both introduced by their creating artists as very flat-chested (and it even being the butt of a cute visual joke in Jubilee's case), and depicted a few years later by new artists with individual bosums the size of their head.
I'm sure DC has a few examples, as well, Power Girl, who went from 'average superheroine D-cup busty' to 'Why does that woman have two airbags exploding out of her chest?,' being a freakish example.
When the blogger says that paizo are 'full of gender fail' it is perfectly acceptable, because she is using a term from net dialect, which is understood by digital natives (I.E. the people most likely to be reading her blog.)
I still can't respect her, because that "dialect" is just stupid. I sometimes use "internet speech", but mostly in jest, never to be taken seriously, and usually in an ironic manner.
So that's the gist of it: I can't take her seriously. When I read someone writing "They're full of gender fail" I can but laugh at her.
So this cause is unlikely to get any sympathy from me. Frothing rants delivered in "joke language" is going to amuse me, nothing more.
She's basically a lolmolly. She can't hope to become more than a meme. When I read her stuff, from now on I'll probably imagine angry kittens complaining about the bad treatment by tomcats. Complete with cutely spelled catchphrases.
"Feminism kitty prints rants on her printress!"
I can't help but feel your looking for excuses to ignore her.
I mean, don't get me wrong, i don't agree with her, but that is based on(after an admittedly breif read) the fact that she doesn't seem to be arguing that we should have a more realistic potrail of woman(and for that matter men), but that all images with a sexual element are some how bad, and that she is supported by a fairly large crowd of people with a sex negative agenda. Compared to that, using netspeak to amusing effect in her writing just doesn't factor into it.
When you focus on it, it makes it look a little like your just looking for an excuse to ignore her because she is a woman or you don't want to think about the argument itself.
And actually, there is a problem. Many gaming companies, both table top and software, are as she puts it, full of gender fail(and even more full of sexuality and race fail). If I have a problem with this thread, and go make me a sandwichs, it is the attack in paizo, who frankly are amongst the good guys on this issue. Compared to wizards and blizzard, paizo are the dalhi laama. And while paizo isn't perfect, they really could go further with body type variety and present more art where females who happen to be wearing armour, don't have chest windows. Hell even their writing could to better with gender issues, but when they do produce cheese cake, it tends to be great art, and have a lightness of touch and humour to it, that blizzard and wizards never achieve. As such I consider the tone of the messages wrong. We should be congratulating paizo, and offering them encouragement to do better, not wailing and gnashing our teeth as though they are regularly using topless booth babes who occationally have big old make out sessions with one another to get the us lower brain rules males in to buy stuff.
Honestly, I think her argument is that she wants the iconics as characters she wants to fantasize about being, rather than being pin-ups that guys fantasize about having sex with. She's not happy with any of the impractically revealing outfits or sex kitten poses because she doesn't want to fantasize about herself wearing the first or posing like the second. And I think that's a valid criticism.
Using words like "fail" in the slang sense is perfectly valid for media criticism, which has an informal style, especially in blog, and as much as I enjoy the term "lolmolly," I won't dismiss a well researched and argued piece for being insufficiently academic. Also, frankly, compared to many academic writers, her blog is a masterpiece of clarity, and should be praised for that alone.
Honestly, I think her argument is that she wants the iconics as characters she wants to fantasize about being, rather than being pin-ups that guys fantasize about having sex with. She's not happy with any of the impractically revealing outfits or sex kitten poses because she doesn't want to fantasize about herself wearing the first or posing like the second. And I think that's a valid criticism.
By way of counter.
Very clearly, different individuals have different tastes. While the writer of go make me a sandwich feels that some of the iconic characters are images that she wouldn't want to play, other individual woman feel differently, to the point where the three of the most scantily clad iconic and the harrower(an image that the blogger specifically criticised, for not being 'bad-assed', of all things) where all fodder for this years gencon paizo costume contest. Female fan who like these images so much that they don't just want to play said character, they want to dress up as them.
Hell, if we are going to get into a position where we discard any female image that guys fantasize about sleeping with, well you might as well kick Seelah and Kyra of the list as well, because frankly I find them both more sexually attractive that Seoni, and I am sure there are other guys who feel the same. EDIT: Such a course leads us to a place where you cannot depict woman at all, because almost any good picture of almost any woman is going to elicit desire in someone. And any image that isn't, is almost certainly going to be an issue form the other end, ie. the exploitation of some ones appearance for shock or humour.
Using words like "fail" in the slang sense is perfectly valid for media criticism, which has an informal style, especially in blog, and as much as I enjoy the term "lolmolly," I won't dismiss a well researched and argued piece for being insufficiently academic. Also, frankly, compared to many academic writers, her blog is a masterpiece of clarity, and should be praised for that alone.
Agreed
Actually, point of order, but "fail" in modern slang is indeed a noun. As in the phrase "This argument is made of fail."
There's also a shade of meaning between "fail" as a noun and "failure" as a noun, as "fail" is a particularly spectacular and egregious example of failure, or to put it another way: fail > failure
Everyone's failing. Doesn't make it right.
And I'm not buying the fail = failure² argument, either. When "epic fail" is used to describe the most trivial crap, a regular fail is even less significant.
In fact, I'd say that "failure" has the stronger meaning, if only because this "epic fail" nonsense has completely cheapened fail, and, indeed, epic.
I am afraid the OED thinks your made of English Fail
noun
1 a mark which is not high enough to pass an examination or test.
2 informal a mistake, failure, or instance of poor performance:
their customer service is a massive fail
[mass noun] : his first product demo was full of fail
You know what?
I liked Mialee's character design.
I didn't find her all that attractive, but I sure as hell appreciated the design and the artist's alleged intent behind it.
Alleged intent?
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Alleged intent?You know what?
I liked Mialee's character design.
I didn't find her all that attractive, but I sure as hell appreciated the design and the artist's alleged intent behind it.
To provide a competent female adventurer that wasn't conventionally beautiful in the role often taken into cheesecakey directions. Also a bit of a middle finger to the idea that all female characters MUST be attractive.
Attributed to the artist at most, IIRC. I'm not sure if Todd Lockwood has ever said anything definite about it.
I'd LOVE to see a clip of the bodybuilder doing that backflip unassisted. I think their knees would explode like a rotten tomato, but if they hold the record for the squat....Well if you fast forward to 5:00 in this clip you'll see him do a cartwheel after winning his match at the 2000 Olympics....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYO4YWgLcko
Without even clicking, I knew it was Rulon Gardner. Coincidentally, he's on the Biggest Loser this season to cut some serious weight he packed on the last decade.
It's like comics where they introduce the plain flat-chested teenage girl in one issue and after going through a succession of artists, she goes up a cup size and gets a fashion makeover each one until a few years later she looks like a comic-book pin-up.Jubilee or Heather Hudson, for example? Both introduced by their creating artists as very flat-chested (and it even being the butt of a cute visual joke in Jubilee's case), and depicted a few years later by new artists with individual bosums the size of their head.
I'm sure DC has a few examples, as well, Power Girl, who went from 'average superheroine D-cup busty' to 'Why does that woman have two airbags exploding out of her chest?,' being a freakish example.
I'm a big PG fan- her breast size had been more of an in-house issue over the years than any response to external complaints or encouragement- there was one artist who really, really wanted her to be gymnast-chic and so she was for a few years until other artists came along and restored her to her normal measurements. Which are supposed to be a shade above normal in every respect- I think only Wonder Woman is taller.
You know what?
I liked Mialee's character design.
I didn't find her all that attractive, but I sure as hell appreciated the design and the artist's alleged intent behind it.
I LOVES me some cheesecake, but I liked Mialee as well- not every elf is gorgeous.
Without even clicking, I knew it was Rulon Gardner. Coincidentally, he's on the Biggest Loser this season to cut some serious weight he packed on the last decade.I'd LOVE to see a clip of the bodybuilder doing that backflip unassisted. I think their knees would explode like a rotten tomato, but if they hold the record for the squat....Well if you fast forward to 5:00 in this clip you'll see him do a cartwheel after winning his match at the 2000 Olympics....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYO4YWgLcko
Then this begs the question as to whether or not he was "in shape" when this picture was taken?
Without even clicking, I knew it was Rulon Gardner. Coincidentally, he's on the Biggest Loser this season to cut some serious weight he packed on the last decade.Then this begs the question as to whether or not he was "in shape" when this picture was taken?
He's much larger now in comparison to that photo. To be fair 1) that size is rather common for heavyweights and 2) he won the gold.
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Way back in the land of ancient Greece they had this concept we now call the "heroic nude." Gods and demigods and heroes were generally underdressed to highlight their supernormal nature and capabilities. I think this eventually filtered down to us in the form of Frazetta et al, but it didn't mean ordinary people dressed in this way. However, it may be that the power of the naked body conveys something of this semi-divine character and arresting presence that the classical artists were aware of. I guess the crucial difference between cheesecake and classical art of heroes and heroines is "gravitas."
Of course then I think, "gravy." Not tasty with cheesecake.
I like this post a lot.
I would like to add that Paizo's art includes many people who are not in the god/demi-god/pseudo-divine-hero category.
Then this begs the question as to whether or not he was "in shape" when this picture was taken?Without even clicking, I knew it was Rulon Gardner. Coincidentally, he's on the Biggest Loser this season to cut some serious weight he packed on the last decade.I'd LOVE to see a clip of the bodybuilder doing that backflip unassisted. I think their knees would explode like a rotten tomato, but if they hold the record for the squat....Well if you fast forward to 5:00 in this clip you'll see him do a cartwheel after winning his match at the 2000 Olympics....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYO4YWgLcko
"In shape" is very relative. An Olympic weightlifter needs raw strength, but not necessarily anything else that we think of as "in shape". They don't need the endurance to go round after round in the boxing ring, or play four period on the ice, or do cross-country skiing, etc. They need lots of raw muscle power for lifting heavy things and being done in less than 5 minutes.
It's similar to American-rules football linemen - most of them are not what we consider "in shape" and many of them have rather large bellies (William "The Fridge" Perry, anyone?). They don't have to run long distances as fast as they can very often - they just need the strength to shove the other lineman out of the way and they need the bulk to keep from being pushed out of the way themselves. When a lineman does get the ball on a fumble or interception and takes off with it, you always see them on the sidelines afterwards getting oxygen - they don't have the cardio to do that like the receivers or running backs. Yet they are still considered every bit the athlete that the running backs, receivers, quarterbacks, etc. are.
Well English is a decidedly mongrel language, and while there are strong Romance influences (Ecclesiastical latin and French, mostly), it's primarily Germanic; grammar and syntax are very similar to German, and it's usually considered to be a Germanic, rather than Romance language. Just wanted to point that out, not entirely relevant perhaps.
German has various academic committees that oversee the language. There's a regulatory body for orthography (responsible for implementing spelling reforms in the mid 90s), and another body that provides reccommendations on grammar and spellings; I don't think they actually regulate the language as such.
The main problem with regulating German is that several countries speak it, and becomes a political issue if a German-based organization decides how people in Austria, Switzerland, and Italy should be talking.
I´m no expert either. English is most assuredly a Germanic language - think for a moment where the term anglo-saxon comes from. There are some parallels to the frisian language spoken on the north sea coast and englisch to this day. There are many french and latin influences, owing to the normans primarily.
There are indeed some comittees that decide what correct german spelling and grammar is, not to everyones liking. The last major reform caused an outcry of epic proportions, with some folks refusing to use the new rules to this day. To make things more complicated, indeed Swiss, Austrian and northern Italian German are not the same, these countries would not tolerate being lorded over by Germany in this (or any other) regard. And there are differences between eastern and western Germany as well - 40 years of separation saw to that.
Stefan
I strongly oppose an official regulatory system for English (even if it were possible, which it's not-- there are simply too many English speaking countries-- even the Spanish Academy only attempts to handle Castilian). Even though I've taught English and ESL, I am also a poet, and English is probably one of the most flexible and fun languages to write any form of spoken word/verse in.
I am afraid the OED thinks your made of English Fail
The OED primarily tracks British English, or at least tracks it first. If you hear a word and it's not listed in the OED, you should check Webster's Unabridged. Usually you'll find it there. If it's not in Webster's Unabridged and you suspect it is slang, you check www.urbandictionary.com.
The purpose of the OED is to track English usage over time. All you need is for the current slang meaning of "fail" to be used in a popular song, printed article, published fiction and so on for it to be included in a future edition of the OED.
This is a loaded argument if ever there was one. I've seen "many" academic pieces of writing also that are not only far more clear than hers, but prove their point while still being easily-understood without engaging in slang or other poor writing.
She used a single instance of gamer slang in a blog posting meant to be read by gamers, and also did that in a humorous way in the introduction before launching into the more serious meat of her argument. I personally find that an example of good writing, and in fact is a common rhetorical device.
I'd also contend that anyone who wants an example of less clear academic writing should read anything by Clifford Geertz.