Good point, be simpler just not to and let everyone form an alliance to drive out the kender menace, like they do with orcs and goblins.
Good point, be simpler just not to and let everyone form an alliance to drive out the kender menace, like they do with orcs and goblins.
They can't, according to the kender bio, thinking they are anything but innocent and interesting to have around means your an ignorant idiot. No king or noble can afford for their gods to think that.
They can't, according to the kender bio, thinking they are anything but innocent and interesting to have around means your an ignorant idiot. No king or noble can afford for their gods to think that.
Yeah, yet another blackmark to the kender. Not only can they not stop stealing, or not lie, not only will they put themselves and other in danger doing foolish things...if you do not go along with it at best you are foolish at worse you are evil.
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Good point, be simpler just not to and let everyone form an alliance to drive out the kender menace, like they do with orcs and goblins.
yes but if your army approaches them, by the time they have reached Kenderhome they will be stripped to their underwear and socks - and maybe not even that left on them
Which is why you use distance weapons, siege weapons and mass archers. Lob a fireball or 50. Really as written they should be treated about like you would pugwampi or goblins.
Which is why you use distance weapons, siege weapons and mass archers. Lob a fireball or 50. Really as written they should be treated about like you would pugwampi or goblins.
Nah i've been known to let a few goblins live. Kender? not a chance
Nah i've been known to let a few goblins live. Kender? not a chance
The diffidence is a goblin can learn a different path, a kender can not. Its hard wired into his soul, he can not change, even if a kender baby was raised by human he would act like a kender. It can not be changed and can not be over come.
Kender are more like fey or a cursed race then anything else.
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Which is why you use distance weapons, siege weapons and mass archers. Lob a fireball or 50. Really as written they should be treated about like you would pugwampi or goblins.
But but I dont think you will have a chance to do so!
I mean picture it - A vast allied army hell bent on Kendercide moving through the wilds making enormous noise and stirring up visible dust from miles away.What do you think every Kender that can see or hear it will do? Head right for it of course. And if Im not mistaken Kender are naturally SNEAKY.
The first the army will know about its imminent Kenderpocalyse is when the Generals start wondering why the outriders havent reported anything yet (they are too busy trying to run back now that they are missing their horses, pants boots and the like.
BOOM! 30 seconds later not an armed man in sight, just a lot of unclad unarmed soldiers.
Saaaay theres a thought - MONKS!!! The natural nemesis of the Kender!
Take their weapons, take their gear and it doesnt matter!
THATS WHY MONKS ARE A CORE CLASSS!!! Its JJ and Co's means of protecting their intellectial properties from the Kender of WoTC! What a stroke of Genius!!!
Nah, that only works so long. After all Lord Soth "fixed" a whole village of kender. The child like playfulness does not work so well when people start nailing kender hands to trees.
As I said, Joking aside they work in a G rated setting* and that is about it.
*as long as the GM and players play along and you are not a dick anyhow
A kender is....
Opps you already got 50+ hits
Got to go, got to go.
Actually you *can* do something about imminent kender threat. You appear harmless, so they don't feel the need to be sneaky. Then, when you see one, you throw away some random trinket, even curiously shaped stone or twig, and when the kender is distracted you simply go away. They are small, so their speed hampers them. I'd be careful with the other 20 ft sped races and heavily armoured characters lacking a swift steed though. It might be just the reason for Dwarvesw to live in almost hermetically sealed strongholds and shun travel...
That was me, and yeah they are a threat. It does say they are far more likely to open a big door marked danger do not open then they are to let it go. You might get one kender who has opened those doors a dozen times and might pass it up, but eh someone else will get them out of trouble. Remember kender do not fear death.
As written a lone kender is bad, a group of kender is as much a threat to a village as a group of goblins in many ways. Sure they might not kill anyone but the chaos they leave in their wake is not unlike that left after a raid. The economical lose and disruptive chaos alone could cripple village and lay waste to towns.
The more kender you put in one place , the more the claw hammer remark rings true.
Bascually they have a racial feature where they can steal without it being bad because they are "innocent".
But most hate comes from RP by players than the Kender themselves.
They never hoard an item though: they return it if asked.
I had a short rebuttal typed up, but IE had to go and be stupid. *sigh*
The gist of what I was going to say is that there's a hole on the anti-kender side of the argument, possibly because they do not grok the idea that kender do not steal for profit. In fact, the word steal implies a desire for some kind of profit or benefit, so it's arguable that kender are even doing that. Kender may fall into a "unpleasant valley" for a lot of people because their world view may not allow for people doing things that could be considered stealing with very little motive other than curiosity.
Stealing is stealing, the kender do not see taking that ring that looked neat as stealing, or that neat swing kit, or that shiny stone on the shelf, but you better believe the folks that own those things do in fact see it as stealing.
It does not matter that they do not steal for money, they steal.
A kender I played would be more likely to steal the bow out of her hair or the pretty doll than the coins off of her eyes. :D
How is this any better? You steal stole things, kener are most likely to steal things of personal value then things of just monetary value.
Who is the worse thief, the one who stole your coin or the one who took that keepsake from your long dead grandfather?
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A kender I played would be more likely to steal the bow out of her hair or the pretty doll than the coins off of her eyes. :DHow is this any better? You steal stole things, kener are most likely to steal things of personal value then things of just monetary value.
Who is the worse thief, the one who stole your coin or the one who took that keepsake from your long dead grandfather?
I'm just responding to your assertion that if the kender player didn't take the coins, he was metagaming, doing it wrong, having BADWRONGFUN, and the GM should punch him in the nose. :P Also trying to point out that what one person/kender finds interesting, another might not.
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I have no problem with kender in general. My problem is when I am playing in a world other then Dragonlance and a player insists that every halfling should be just like them. We broke one player of that habit when one of our party members transferred his healing potions to new bottles and filled all the bottles that he had been using for healing potions with drow sleep poison. That was the last time we had a problem with "kenderlings" in the Forgotten Realms.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't have any problem with people playing kender, as long as they're willing to accept the consequences of their actions. If your kender doesn't bother my character because I'll cut the hand off of a thief, then you're not playing a kender. You're playing a character who will modify their actions because they know the player said he'll kill a thief. Suddenly you're a compulsive thief execpt to me.
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[Dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.
It doesn't say that SOME dwarves do this, or dwarves GENERALLY do this, it says "DWARVES DO THIS".
Yet there are quite a few adventuring parties in which both dwarves and members of those races are both found. This too is blatant metagaming, according to your definition, where a racial description is an iron cage, instead of a general suggestion. Why does the PC dwarf go out adventuring with people he doesn't respect, or respect people he shouldn't? Because it's convenient for gaming purposes (ie, because if he treated the PC elf like crap for the whole game, either the elf player would leave or the group would boot the dwarf player).
You have to decide which one you want here. If the kender's racial writeup is an ironclad cage that they can never be deviated from, then so too is the dwarf's.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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[Dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.It doesn't say that SOME dwarves do this, or dwarves GENERALLY do this, it says "DWARVES DO THIS".
Yet there are quite a few adventuring parties in which both dwarves and members of those races are both found. This too is blatant metagaming, according to your definition, where a racial description is an iron cage, instead of a general suggestion. Why does the PC dwarf go out adventuring with people he doesn't respect, or respect people he shouldn't? Because it's convenient for gaming purposes (ie, because if he treated the PC elf like crap for the whole game, either the elf player would leave or the group would boot the dwarf player).
You have to decide which one you want here. If the kender's racial writeup is an ironclad cage that they can never deviate from, then so to is the dwarf's.
Repeating a false analogy in another thread doesn't make it any less false.
Kender are a race that have to completely change their behaviour patterns depending on if the target is a PC, important NPC, or just some nameless mook. They're only playable in the metagame sense.
Even the most vocal of kender defenders said as much.
Not necessarily. They have to change their behavior if a trusted friend or compatriot asks them to on a few occasions.
Repeating a false analogy in another thread doesn't make it any less false.[Dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.It doesn't say that SOME dwarves do this, or dwarves GENERALLY do this, it says "DWARVES DO THIS".
Yet there are quite a few adventuring parties in which both dwarves and members of those races are both found. This too is blatant metagaming, according to your definition, where a racial description is an iron cage, instead of a general suggestion. Why does the PC dwarf go out adventuring with people he doesn't respect, or respect people he shouldn't? Because it's convenient for gaming purposes (ie, because if he treated the PC elf like crap for the whole game, either the elf player would leave or the group would boot the dwarf player).
You have to decide which one you want here. If the kender's racial writeup is an ironclad cage that they can never deviate from, then so to is the dwarf's.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree here. He's not wrong, any more than kender who learn fear or to curb their handling instincts are wrong. Well, maybe wrongbadfun....
He's not wrong, any more than kender who learn fear or to curb their handling instincts are wrong.
He is wrong and he knows it. The kenders actions are hard wired into his SOUL. It is part of the races soul, it is not learned like a dwarf it is as much a part of them as breathing.
You guys kept trying to make kender something they simply are not. The write ups are clear. The stuff is hard wired into the soul of a kender.
A dwarf raised by elves acts different, a kender's actions are not based on culture at all, but his soul. The thing that drives a kender can not be taken out.
They can't unlearn those things ever. They do not see it as wrong and 90% of the time do not recall doing it anyhow. If they lie about where it came from and they will if asked they too believe that lie.
You guys are using a different race then written.
He's not wrong, any more than kender who learn fear or to curb their handling instincts are wrong.
He is wrong and he knows it. The kenders actions are hard wired into his SOUL. It is part of the races soul, it is not learned like a dwarf it is as much a part of them as breathing.
You guys kept trying to make kender something they simply are not. The write ups are clear. The stuff is hard wired into the soul of a kender.
A dwarf raised by elves acts different, a kender's actions are not based on culture at all, but his soul. The thing that drives a kender can not be taken out.
They can't unlearn those things ever. They do not see it as wrong and 90% of the time do not recall doing it anyhow. If they lie about where it came from and they will if asked they too believe that lie.
You guys are using a different race then written.
Then how do you explain the parts *of the writeup* that explain kender learning to channel their fearlessness into less-suicidal pursuits? Or that they will not handle things from a friend if called on it and asked not to do that(at least to them)? Maybe we're talking past each other a bit here, but if you're going by hard wiring, you HAVE to take every part of the writeup into account, not just the ones that back up how you feel.
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Repeating a false analogy in another thread doesn't make it any less false.
The fact that you like dwarves and will more willingly accept metagaming to make them an acceptable part of a multi-race group doesn't make what I just stated any less true.
Chose one:
1. Dwarves have no respect for halflings, gnomes, or elves. If your PC dwarf treats these characters with anything resembling respect, then they are metagaming.
...and...
Kender pick up absolutely everything from every room that they enter if it is not nailed down and stuff it in their pockets. If they have a claw hammer, they will put those things in their pockets as well.
AKA the "Racial write-ups are are strict rules" choice
OR
2. Some dwarves can learn to respect certain halflings, gnomes, or elves. Their racial description is a general guideline to common dwarven behavior, not a strict limitation on their behavior that must be enforced.
...and...
Some kender can learn to at least somewhat control their impulses, and only "borrow" relatively minor and inconsequential things from those they consider friends. They also do not let their innate curiosity and fearlessness endanger those friends.
AKA the "Racial write-ups are general suggestions" choice
[jigsaw voice] Make your choice [/jigsaw voice]
Of course, the amusing thing about this is that the kender writeup that you hold the be the iron-clad word of god is so blatantly obviously exaggeration.
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I have no problem with kender in general. My problem is when I am playing in a world other then Dragonlance and a player insists that every halfling should be just like them.Blame 3.0. It changed halflings from Tolkien hobbits into watered-down kender.
Trust me, I know. I prefer the 4E "river gypsy" halflings myself.
Kthulhu,, show me where it says this is a part of the dwarves soul? Can you? I can and have shown where it says the stealing, lieing and the delusion of believing the lie they told are past of the kenders soul.
They can learn not to go poke a dragon, they have zero compensation of personal belonging, they do not believe they are stealing and do not recall doing so.
Your talking about a culture thing, while acting as if it is the same as something that is a part of a kenders soul. Yours is a false argument.
The closest thing we have is golaions gnomes collecting things and bleaching. That is the same level as the kender as it is something that is such a part of the race you can not remove it.
You guys are simply not playing the same race the book is talking about.
Then how do you explain the parts *of the writeup* that explain kender learning to channel their fearlessness into less-suicidal pursuits? Or that they will not handle things from a friend if called on it and asked not to do that(at least to them)? Maybe we're talking past each other a bit here, but if you're going by hard wiring, you HAVE to take every part of the writeup into account, not just the ones that back up how you feel.
I am, you guys are not. You act like kender when it is fun, but do not act like kender when it hurts the party, might get you killed or pisses someone off.
Kender do not think they are stealing, they do not recall doing it..how can you stop something you do not know your doing?
Edit: maybe I missed it but where does it say they will not handle friends items? Page number of line of text or something here?
He is wrong and he knows it. The kenders actions are hard wired into his SOUL. It is part of the races soul, it is not learned like a dwarf it is as much a part of them as breathing.
You guys kept trying to make kender something they simply are not. The write ups are clear. The stuff is hard wired into the soul of a kender.
A dwarf raised by elves acts different, a kender's actions are not based on culture at all, but his soul. The thing that drives a kender can not be taken out.
They can't unlearn those things ever. They do not see it as wrong and 90% of the time do not recall doing it anyhow. If they lie about where it came from and they will if asked they too believe that lie.
You guys are using a different race then written.
“A kender’s fellow adventurers often have to teach him that certain things have big, nasty teeth and that avoiding these things is often in the kender’s best interest, regardless of what the kender’s opinion are in the matter. Whenever a kender displays an inordinately sensible attitude about danger, it is probably because the kender realizes that continued curiosity will ruin any further chances of doing exciting things ever again.”
Page 51, Dragonlance Adventures (AD&D version).
This is under the Kender entry. If a dwarf can learn to except half-orcs then kender can learn to show rational judgement. This isn't metagaming, it is as written. This doesn't mean you have to accept Kender. I've mentioned before, I woiuld only allow them in Dragonlance or in a world where they are the standard halfling race. To say a race HAS to act a certain way is just silly. PCs choose how their characters act and create the reasons they act that way. It's between the DM and that player.
That has nothing to do with the stealing, it simply is not even talking about the stealing yet. I posted the whole of the kender write up in the last thread.
Learning not to be suicidal and stealing are two very different things.
1: it is part of the soul of a kender
2: they do not see it as stealing
3: if asked they lie about where it came from
4: they often really have forgotten they ever picked the item up
5: if the lie they believe the lie.
This is simply not the same thing as the recklessness and they are iin 2 different sections. The first section says a kender may overcome his fearless recklessness, no where does it say they can ever not be thieves.
In fact it says " Intense curiosity is a trait ingrained in their souls and minds from their racial creation by the Greystone of Gargath.
They cannot be other than what they are. Natural thieves. "
Listen, what we're coming down to here is an old anthropological nature/nurture debate. If we follow the racial write-ups, you get stuff like this:
NATURE
Kender: utterly fearless, insatiably curious, believe their own lies about the origin of stuff they acquire
Gnomes: driven to collect something or have a similar hobby or driving passion
Goblins: Always incredibly hungry; can and will eat their own bodyweight in food
NURTURE
Elves: Dislike dwarves
Dwarves: Dislike elves
Goblins: Dislike books and dogs; double plus like fire!
Now lets say you have some human librarian maintaining a magic library at the edge of the world with no other companion except her pet dog. Suddenly she has foundlings for all the above races dumped on her doorstep and she decides to raise them. What happens?
Well, without any input from their original cultures, the elf and the dwarf will probably get along fine, and the goblin will probably like the dog and the books and not want to set fire to the library.
Meanwhile, the gnome would grow up with some passion, likely for cataloging and the Dewey Decimal System. The kender? He's continually taking books, misplacing them, and then lying about it. And he's continually caught in these lies because his brothers and sisters have learned to keep an eye on him and have occasionally made their Stealth checks.
The gnome would probably go into apoplexy over this, because mis-shelving the books is the most unforgivable sin to his personal obsession, but everyone else would just conclude that the kender who they grew up with is sadly not right in the head, fundamentally broken in some awful way.
Now, the only argument here is whether the kender can temper his madness when he knows it will hurt those he loves--or possibly get him hurt, as in the case of the gnome who doesn't want any of the books mis-shelved. It probably works like those people with Tourette's who can try to suppress it but with mixed results and it later leads to outbursts in other spots.
One of the problems there is that tempering the madness is put down to character RP, which basically means that whenever a player doesn't want the madness to be a limiting factor, it isn't. This leads to meta-gaming and bad RP.
What would probably be better would be for there to be some system like White Wolf's Vampire where you could burn a Willpower point to resist the effects of some mental affliction: a Toreador wanting to stare at a particularly beautiful painting, a Malkavian resisting their own personal madness, any vampire confronted by fire, etc.
Alternately, you just move all the Kender behaviors from the "Nature" side of the column to the "Nurture" side, but then again, that just gives you 3.0 halflings.
Maybe there could be some kind of a will save. Say 15+1/2 level or something.
Edit: This takes into account the concept that the more you work at suppressing a habit, the easier it becomes to suppress.
A will save would be reasonable, but there would need to be both penalties and bonuses based on the extreme "shininess" of an object (as with Toreadors having more trouble resisting paintings of Craft 5 than of Craft 3) and with the Kender's personal relationship with the person they're taking the object from.
Kender are... not part of Pathfinder, and never will be.
All of the other arguing is irrelevant.
Actually, Kender are not part of Golarion and never will be.
Pathfinder as a roleplaying system is made to be 3.X compatible, so it's very easy to run a Pathfinder game and use the 3.0 Dragonlance book as source material, meaning that Kender are completely possible.
Whether they're advisable is another matter, but they're certainly possible with Pathfinder.
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You know, I was thinking about starting a thread where I talked about some of the fun stuff that I've done while playing as a kender, and seen done by others, and inviting KenderKen and a few other to join it. But a few of you guys have pretty much made it evident that if I were to start such a thread, you would come into it and re-start this argument. And frankly, I don't want to deal with that $#!+. Enough threads get trolled without me making one that is pretty much guaranteed to get trolled.
That has nothing to do with the stealing, it simply is not even talking about the stealing yet. I posted the whole of the kender write up in the last thread.
Learning not to be suicidal and stealing are two very different things.
1: it is part of the soul of a kender
2: they do not see it as stealing
3: if asked they lie about where it came from
4: they often really have forgotten they ever picked the item up
5: if the lie they believe the lie.This is simply not the same thing as the recklessness and they are iin 2 different sections. The first section says a kender may overcome his fearless recklessness, no where does it say they can ever not be thieves.
In fact it says " Intense curiosity is a trait ingrained in their souls and minds from their racial creation by the Greystone of Gargath.
They cannot be other than what they are. Natural thieves. "
The very next paragraph starts by saying "On the other hand..." and then goes into Theft vs. Handling. A creative palyer and GM would have no problem using the rules as they are written to prevent Kender from stealing things from party memebers. It states several times that Kender form close friendships and take these seriously. The Kender whould only have to see the reaction from a friend he has taken something from to understand this isn't good, it hurt his friend, and he shouldn't do it again.
My issue isn't with not allowing Kender. They can be a pain in the ass and need a good player, much like paladins at times. It's saying they have to act a certain way or it's metagaming. That is simply not true.
[Dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.It doesn't say that SOME dwarves do this, or dwarves GENERALLY do this, it says "DWARVES DO THIS".
"Proper respect" does not mean "no respect", which is what you keep alluding to.
You've refused to address this before, you continually insinuate that it means "no respect".
Find another analogy, because this one has been shut down.
[Dwarves] find halflings, elves, and gnomes to be too frail, flighty, or “pretty” to be worthy of proper respect.It doesn't say that SOME dwarves do this, or dwarves GENERALLY do this, it says "DWARVES DO THIS"."Proper respect" does not mean "no respect", which is what you keep alluding to.
You've refused to address this before, you continually insinuate that it means "no respect".
Find another analogy, because this one has been shut down.
What's the difference between not being treated with proper respect and being treated with no respect?
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We used the old Dragonlance Adventures book which had specific rules for kender pouches and kender theft. Basically, the player wasn't in control of what he/she stole. The kender had a list of pouches and the DM rolled what randomly ended up in them. Much like in the books, Tas never specifically stole anything, but a lot of things randomly ended up in their pouch. That way the player could genuinely act surprised if the another player's gem/ring/magic item/etc. ended up in the kender's pouch.
While this absolves the player of any complicity in deliberate player-vs-player actions, it has a glaring problem, in that it forces an immediate retcon of the events leading up to the theft.
Given all the ways a PC could protect his belongings in-game, some of which are loud, crippling or lethal, and given that these measures are employed as standard procedure in most games, let alone games where a kender is present in the group; it is the height of ass-pullery to flatly and retroactively declare that Player A's gear is in Player B's pocket.
The natural response to that, from Player A, is to declare "No. No it is not."
"But I rolled..."
"I don't care what you rolled."
"But I rolled..."
"Take 12 fire damage. Fire Trap."
"But I rolled..."
"Alarm wakes me up. Roll for initiative."
"But I rolled..."
"Delaying, eh? I hit AC 28. Take 15 damage."
"But I rolled..."
"Save vs poison, or lose d4 Con."
"But I rolled..."
Etc; ad nauseum.
And, given that this derailment is often prompted by Player A going for an item in the heat of battle, it interrupts the current encounter, then the GM and players have to back track even further, when it's resolved that the kender didn't get the item, and was killed in camp, so was never able to provide that flank, deal that Sneak damage, so the hobgoblin is still alive, so Player C couldn't charge past,... or f*** it, the entire encounter is stupid, since the kender wouldn't have been alive to set off the alarm in the first place....and Players D & E have wandered off to play WoW in the other room, and need to be brought up to date...but for some reason no-one wants to carry on with the campaign any more, because it always results in these situations. Congratulations, kender. You've ruined another game.