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In an upcoming Runelords campaign, my wife expressed an interest in becoming a wolf shaman druid archetype. Considering that the AP ends at around lvl 15-16, a lot of the wolf shaman's signature abilities will be obsolete by then. I am afraid that high levels will relegate her to a support spellcaster/healer who will be vastly overshadowed by her cleric or wizard friends.
She primarily wants to play a shapeshifting druid. How can I make a wolf shaman druid that is viable at higher levels? I'm willing to change stuff from RAW if need be. Are there any suggestions?
BTW: I read Treantmonk's excellent druid guides. However, my wife really wants to be a "mistress of the wolves" type of character and isn't too excited about transforming into a dire tiger even though they are mechanically better at the lvl 7-10 range.
Oh, we are also doing 15 pt. buy.
Play what you want, don't be driven by optimising/minmax.
At the start, the wolf os perfectly valid, and will offer decent longevity. The other point is that if you get a GM who plays by RAW, you might not have Dire Tiger as an option, as a Druid can ONLY take on a form with which they are familiar. If you haven't seen it, you can't be it.
Further, Wolves are fairly generic, getting replacement cats might require lengthy travel (haven't looked up if great cats are native to the territories involved in the AP) which is a problem if your pet dies - Wolves are a dime a dozen and readily replaceable.
Up to you, I just reckon you are limiting your options away from something completely fun and worthwhile for the wrong reasons :)
If you are willing to change the rules then I suggest letting her use huge sized wolves for beastshape 3
As for combat I say focus on tripping, wolves get a free trip. That is how I got the serpent shaman to work, except with grab.
Play what you want, don't be driven by optimising/minmax.
/sign
as long as it is fun, it's good!
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My wife really wants to be a "mistress of the wolves" type of character and isn't too excited about transforming into a dire tiger even though they are mechanically better at the lvl 7-10 range.
Oh, we are also doing 15 pt. buy.
2 things.
1) Unless you are doing a pathfinder society game then it is WELL within the limits of your power to write up new, change, or do away with certain rules. For example. A player in my CoT game is playing a Dwarven Cavalier and was not happy with the mounts available. He came to me asking if there was any way he could get a larger selection, and I obliged. I gave him the choice of a Herd animal type, an Bird, or a Lizard. He choose the lizard, flavored it like a frilled lizard, and I scratched the serial number off the Camel, altered the strength advancement, and gave it a free intimidate check during a full attack. There is nothing from really stopping you from taking the Dire Tiger, Lion, Bear, or even Crocodile, changing it up a little bit, and Giving it a cool new name. You could even possibly let her shapeshift into a Worg/winter Worg. It won't be any more unbalancing than her simply playing a Tiger Druid. Yes it will mean a little more work for you, but in the end if all your players are having fun, and not worrying about things like "My character isn't powerful enough" then you are doing your job right.
2) I commend you on playing with a low point buy, but my personal recommendation is that unless you are playing with 5+ players, a 15 point buy can be PRETTY brutal for some less experienced gamers. IF they aren't keeping an eye towards optimization and staying buffed up for every combat then characters can feel really weak and fragile.
Just my 2 cp.
Thanks for the comments!
(Just so there is no confusion, I am the DM.)
I think I will allow her to wild shape into a worg/winter wolf if that is her desire. Also, I will allow her to wild shape into a huge wolf when she gets beast shape III.
The trip build you mentioned above sounds interesting. How exactly would it work? This was what I was thinking:
- Vital Strike Bite + Trip (Greater Trip as bonus feat for free AoO upon successful trip). She and the animal companion will get AoO as the enemy tries to get up.
- What feats should she invest in? I'm thinking Vital Strike tree as she won't be getting multiple attacks/round due to wildshaping.
- What should her stats be given 15 PB?
can I just add ONE thing?
DM's giving their spouses lenient houserules have been a common thread in the 'last straw/things players hate' threads - check it with the rest of the group first :p
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- Vital Strike Bite + Trip (Greater Trip as bonus feat for free AoO upon successful trip). She and the animal companion will get AoO as the enemy tries to get up.
- What feats should she invest in? I'm thinking Vital Strike tree as she won't be getting multiple attacks/round due to wildshaping.
- What should her stats be given 15 PB?
For a Melee-Druid, remember, Str & Con are based on the caster, not replaced with Wildshape anymore. I would suggest: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10. You can dump Cha to get a few more points (probably for Dex 12 or Wis 15), but I like it for Diplomacy & Wild Empathy (and Handle Animal if she's going that route.)
Playing a Human will negate the Int penalty for skills, and give you that floating +2 (Recommend Str if she's going to be primary melee combatant).
Spells will suffer, but that's OK...use buffs on yourself, shapechange, tear throats out. At lower levels, a longspear is quite handy, and scimitar makes for great backup weapon.
If you want the Imp Trip / Greater Trip line, you'll need Combat Expertise (will have to dump Cha for that, and likely take a hit on Wis as well), but I don't think it's necessary. The free trip on bite in wolf form should land enough to make it worthwhile, and the druid just won't have the BAB + Str to make it a very sure thing on most of the larger (especially quadruped) critters.
Power Attack, Toughness, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus: Bite, and Improved Natural Attack: Bite are all very nice feats for this character.
Augmented, Standard-Action, size-increased, Advanced wolf summons can really turn the tide in the mid-game, and having another big wolf creature to distract from the druid herself at the high levels will be key.
Animal Companion is also a nice touch, since with the Summon, AC, and Druid all in wolf form, that's 3 bite + free trip, and if any of them land successfully, the others (and rest of the party) can rush in for the kill.
Play like an Alpha-Wolf-Pack-Leader, with a portable furry army up your sleeves, and you'll do just fine.
Also, as has been said above, no reason not to allow Huge wolves (or winter wolves, really) at the higher levels...I had to re-read the spell descriptions several times before realizing that was a houserule of mine.
can I just add ONE thing?
DM's giving their spouses lenient houserules have been a common thread in the 'last straw/things players hate' threads - check it with the rest of the group first :p
I extend the same treatment to all my players. Especially if they are very invested in a particular RP concept that may not be the most "optimized." I've been DM'ing for this particular group for over five years and have yet to draw a single complaint about favoritism.
psionichamster:
Thanks for the advice! By Greater Trip, I was referencing the bonus feat available from level 9.
(From the PRD)
"Bonus Feat: At 9th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a wolf shaman gains one of the following bonus feats: Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Mobility, Skill Focus (Stealth), or Spring Attack. She must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats. This ability replaces venom immunity."
Maybe she can get greater trip at lvl 9 for the +2 trip CMB and AoO and improved trip at lvl 13 for the additional +2 trip CMB. Spring attack looks really nice too...
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psionichamster:
Thanks for the advice! By Greater Trip, I was referencing the bonus feat available from level 9.
(From the PRD)
"Bonus Feat: At 9th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a wolf shaman gains one of the following bonus feats: Greater Trip, Improved Trip, Mobility, Skill Focus (Stealth), or Spring Attack. She must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats. This ability replaces venom immunity."
Maybe she can get greater trip at lvl 9 for the +2 trip CMB and AoO and improved trip at lvl 13 for the additional +2 trip CMB. Spring attack looks really nice too...
Spring attack can be nice...very feat intensive, though. If you're looking for a more "lone wolf" hit & run type character, stats & feats will necessarily change.
something like:
Str 14
Dex 13
Con 15
Int 8
Wis 12
Cha 10
(if you absolutely must have Wis 14, drop Cha to 9 & Con to 14)
Human remains top-notch choice, +2 to Str, then level advancements to Wis.
Dwarf nets a bunch of boosts here. (Mostly the Con/Wis bumps, but darkvision, resiliency, and resistance to trip are nice)
Elf / Half-Elf not so much (Elf weapon profs are nice for lower levels, though, and Skill Focus: Perception on a druid is just sick. Elf would make it easier to get the 13 Int for Combat Expertise though.)
For feats, I'd go with
1: Dodge
H: Mobility
3: Toughness
5: Natural Spell
7: Spring Attack
9: SF: Conjuration (not really necessary, but I can't stress how awesome Aug Summons + Totem Summoning can be)
11: Aug Summons
alternatively:
9: Power Attack
11: Vital Strike
13: Improved Natural Attack: Bite (Medium Wolf is 1d6, Large 1d8, Huge 2d6. INA (Huge) = 3d6, Vital Strike = 6d6. That's extra nice, IMO.
Spells to look at, other than the normal Barksin/Bull's Strength/Bear's Endurance, of course:
Ant Haul: When you're strong, Huge, and a quadruped, this can get pretty ridiculous fast.
Lockjaw: Charge, bite for lots o' damage, possibly trip, possibly grab; proceed to tear face afterwards.
An Amulet of Mighty Fists with elemental damage is all but necessary for this gal at higher levels, as is a belt of Str/Dex/Con (as high as possible.)
Doh! I forgot about the prerequisites part on the bonus feat thing.
With that being said, I think those are excellent feats. Actually, I'm now thinking more along the lines of:
Female human wolf totem druid
Stats:
S 17 (+2 human)
D 12
C 14
I 8
W 14
Ch 8
Lvl 4: +1 str
Lvl 8: +1 dex
lvl 12: +1 wis
lvl 16: +1 wis
*Wisdom is her biggest weakness at lvl 9+, so invest in a headband of wisdom at the earliest opportunity
1: Spell focus (conjuration)
H: Augment Summoning
3: Power Attack
5: Natural Spell
7: Improved Natural Attack (bite)
9: Dodge
B: Mobility
11: Vital Strike
13: Toughness
B: Spring Attack
15: Improved Vital Strike
*The only House Rule I am going to implement is the option to transform into a huge wolf for beast shape III.
Thoughts? Also, do you know of other hidden gems I should look at in the druid spell list?
'That Int and Cha is horrible'
Sorry first thing I noticed.
I'd blow off the Summoning too (or at least DEEP into the Feat tree) - Summon Animal 1 has to be one the WORST spells in game, completely useless. Not worth a Feat at all.
Persoanlly I'd have also blown off Human and taken a 1/2Elf, but thats just my bias.
I think just allowing her wolf definitions to be more flexible to include worts and winter wolf would be suitable. giant advanced winter wolves would be neat.
The easiest fix to any of the "Shaman" druids i think would be to allow beast shape 4 at 10th level, The large magical beasts allows most of them to get a stronger combat form although you may have to allow "near" equivilents.
Bear = Owlbear
Eagle = Giant Eagle (tempted to allow Griffon)
Lion = Ok this one could be broken if you allow Manticore, Sphinx, and Chimera (leaving off griffon for eagles :))
Serpent = Amphisbaena i think this is a 2 headed snake :)
Wolf = Winter Wolf, and you could add Leucrotta and Elder Worg