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Some time ago I* pointed out the nonsense behind Cockatrice Strike prerequisites (the +16 BAB for a feat supposed for monks).
This has been addressed quickly in the errata (I whish to thank Paizo for it) but the main problem for the feat remains: is utterly useless.
As it reads now, post errata:
Cockatrice Strike (Combat)With a single strike, you transmute flesh to stone.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Gorgon's Fist, Medusa's Wrath, base attack bonus +14.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can make a single unarmed strike against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe. If that attack is a critical hit, the target is petrified unless it succeeds on a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Wisdom modifier. This is a supernatural polymorph effect.
I can perfectly see how for a monk a level 19 is needed for a pietrification effect.. but WHY the critical hit thing has not been addressed? Why should I use a full round hoping, at best, for a 19 or a 20 on the dice?
The target must be under a condition and there is a save. Why the critical it? As is, the feat is bad even as a low level one, and it's high level.
This feat is an oddball in the whole very good APG.
* actually, several people did
If a lot of monks are magical warriors able to fly or have their fist flaming, I see it as very logical. It's a secret, magical move touching pressure points and stuff. I like the idea a lot.
Moreover, is a good capstone for the feat line... if not for the bolded part.
Full round + save? Ooook.
Full round + Save + hope for a 19-20 for a single attack? No thanks.
Why?
Full round + save may be too powerful.
Adding the need to crit makes it too weak.
How about Full round + X Ki points + save.
That way it becomes a number of times per day ability instead of all day long type of ability.
Full round + save may be too powerful.
Target must be dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious.
Flat-footed, dazed, stunned, paralyzed means target already missed a save.
Unconscious means target has been beaten hard, or missed a save.
Flat-footed-- not so simple perform a full round action in melee on a flat-footed target.
Imho, the feat would not be so easy to use even without the critical hit thing. But at least, doable.
Full round + save may be too powerful.Heaven forbid you do it as a standard action.
Pretty much :)
What if FtS needed a 19-20 on a d20 to work?
I can see few people call it fair!
If this feat is brought up in my group at some point, I'm going to suggest dropping the necessity of a critical hit and adding a limited duration to the petrification, similar to the ability of the cockatrice for which the feat is named. Perhaps rounds or minutes per character level. If it's a crit, then it's permanent.
At lv19, the rest of the party is doing damage in the triple digits just by breathing, and the casters are laughing at reality and the monk needs to spend his entire round, and get a 19+, on an enemy that is half-way incapacitated already, to do something the wizard could do as a standard action, at range, likely without having to roll a die... 8 levels ago?
Sounds about right.
This can be a quick way to dispatch an enemy... moreover, at least in my games, PCs not always are in the same place at the same time, so a SoD for the monk could be useful anyway.
BUT there is our nasty bolded part.
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This can be a quick way to dispatch an enemy... moreover, at least in my games, PCs not always are in the same place at the same time, so a SoD for the monk could be useful anyway.
BUT there is our nasty bolded part.
Many of these conditions mean it would be a Coup de gras.... which is an automatic crit....
But it also doesn't say as part of a coup de gras, which is it's own action....
Maybe we can FAQ the Ki point suggestion to get them to fix it. Right now there is no way anyone takes that feat. Too much for too little.
Hey a thing for monks that's utterly useless.
Color me surprised :p
Hey a thing for monks that's utterly useless.
Color me surprised :p
a reason more to point it out - maybe can be fixed.
Flag it Cirno Flag It FlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFlagFla gFlagFlagFlagFlagFlag!
The only thing I haven´t seen mentioned here yet, is that it looks to be combinable with Stunning Fist.
If one rules that Stunning Fist happens before this effect, you have your Stunned Condition if they fail the Stun DC.
Is there some rule on which Save should come first?
I do think the point that Coup de Grace is available in most of these Conditions is pretty relevant as comparison, since basically you´re taking a Feat just to have a non-lethal alternative to Coup-de-Gracing them. Also at this level, just about any Critical Hit has a decent chance of triggering a Massive Damage Save of it´s own (which is an aspect I rarely see brought up in board discussions of melee power).
On the other hand, many of the required Conditions (Stunned, Dazed, Flat-Footed, Staggered) ARE fairly easy to attain at the level this is in play. Even at low levels, Stunning Fist can be done as an AoO allowing a Full-Attack your next turn, and winning both a Surprise Round and Init nets a Standard Action + Full Round before opponent can act. Dazed and Staggered are achieveable by many effects, and I believe there is like-wise options to impose Flat-Footed on targets - Teamwork helps alot here.
The effect is very nice to have and powerful (esp. given you can use it on Stun-Immune targets, though not Crit-Immune per it´s current wording). I can understand how it it doesn´t look worth taking, but I´m not sure if any change would make it too good. Between the Guided weapon property (not PFS legal) and the Zen Archer (PFS legal), primary WIS optimization has become a seriously powerful route for Monks, combining their combat ability and special effect DCs... Perhaps it could be made ´compatable´ with Coup-de-Grace, gaining the CdG auto-Crit, but instead of extra damage/Save, the Petrification effect triggers (if they are Crit-susceptible)...?
/inconclusive-schpiel
Sunning fist works until the beginning of the Monk (for simplicity) turn.
So, barring clever use of AOO, you cannot stun by yourself. Other options need careful play and/or teamwork. And, genreally speaking, another save.
THEN there is a save and immunity exist. I really see no place for the critical hit thing.
I agree that this feat needs more change. FAQ'd.
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Melee can't have nice things :)
I don't know how often Paizo changes rules or issues errata on balancing issues. Errata is meant to correct mistakes, no necessarily to buff/nerf perfectly written, but poorly balanced issues.
If they balanced this, that opens up a huge door for other things we want Paizo to balance (like Vital Strike would be my first choice).
Melee can't have nice things :)
I don't know how often Paizo changes rules or issues errata on balancing issues. Errata is meant to correct mistakes, no necessarily to buff/nerf perfectly written, but poorly balanced issues.
If they balanced this, that opens up a huge door for other things we want Paizo to balance (like Vital Strike would be my first choice).
I think these are 2 different thing. I asked mainly because I think that the "bolded part" is some kind of typo, a part not removed as intended.
Vital Stike could not be liked by everybody, but works - you attack, you are SURE to take more d12 to your greataxe strike.
I don't want to change the game, just point out something I think really does not work.
Of course, for all these things I consider discuss constructively important - one points out things for this or for future iterations of the game :)
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Melee can't have nice things :)
I don't know how often Paizo changes rules or issues errata on balancing issues. Errata is meant to correct mistakes, no necessarily to buff/nerf perfectly written, but poorly balanced issues.
If they balanced this, that opens up a huge door for other things we want Paizo to balance (like Vital Strike would be my first choice).
I think these are 2 different thing. I asked mainly because I think that the "bolded part" is some kind of typo, a part not removed as intended.
Vital Stike could not be liked by everybody, but works - you attack, you are SURE to take more d12 to your greataxe strike.
I don't want to change the game, just point out something I think really does not work.
Of course, for all these things I consider discuss constructively important - one points out things for this or for future iterations of the game :)
There's nothing wrong with the errata for the feat. It works. It's just crappy. I mean, Paizo could say it's a typo, but I'd hope they would have caught it already since they issued errata on this already.
On one hand, Paizo is pretty crappy about balancing things that haven't been played for 10 years (the entire 3.5). And on the other hand, they make a lot of typos. So either way, it doesn't look good for this particular issue.
I think these are 2 different thing. I asked mainly because I think that the "bolded part" is some kind of typo, a part not removed as intended.
I'm doubtful its a typo. I saw a similar thing emerge on the Dreamscarred Press forums during the development of the Psionic Fist prestige class (basically a psionic monk). The capstone ability was like the Eldritch Knight's, score a critical and cast a psionic effect through it. Sounds balanced until you consider that the EK is probably using a weapon with a 17-20 threat range and the monk is left with the 19-20 of unarmed attacks.
I actually saw people arguing for the critical condition. For unarmed fighters a critical condition makes for a lousy capstone ability whether in feats or in class abilities.
Btw, the mechanical requirements of having a negative condition on the target as a pre-req is thematically consistent with the other feats in this chain: Gorgon Fist, Medusa's Wrath.
But the way Medusa Wrath is written, that feat is waaay better than Cockatrice Strike since it takes place within a full-round action rather than requiring you spend one. Which is why folks like Treantmonk recommend you skip Gorgon Fist entirely and take Medusa's Wrath as a bonus feat. Those who follow his sage advice won't be qualifying for Cockatrice Strike.
Also, anything that is going to fail two saves at 19th/20th level isn't really that tough.
One non-core method of making this feat viable is to use the Hamatulatsu Feat from PCCS, which increases your critical range. However, this is going to be nerfed soon:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/campaignSet ting/products/pCCSHamatulatsuFeat35rvx
Actually this is one of the things I was wondering.
What If the feat was inteded to work with medusa wrath?
It actually makes sense: you stun, then you flurry with more attacks.
If at least one of these attacks is a critical, save vs pietrification.
The more I look at it, the more the feat seems sort a mix of two ideas for the same purpose - one is a "chance on hit to pietrify" added to medusa wrath, the other (single hit, full round) a sort of monk-ish Dastardly Finish.