Mechanical differences are rather minor. Conceptually, however, they are almost identical! One's a strong rotting corpse and the other is a diseased rotting corpse.
Why was there really a need for the carrion golem when we already have the flesh golem?
At the very least, couldn't it have been called a plague golem or something similar?
Removed a post. Please play nice with other posters.
I think plague golem would have been a better name due to what it does. I do think a creative DM can add different diseases so no matter what the carrion golem is called the purpose is to spread various diseases.
Creative Director
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Mechanical differences are rather minor. Conceptually, however, they are almost identical! One's a strong rotting corpse and the other is a diseased rotting corpse.
Why was there really a need for the carrion golem when we already have the flesh golem?
At the very least, couldn't it have been called a plague golem or something similar?
One is higher CR than the other. That's pretty much it; we wanted to build a lower CR golem and carrion sounds cool.
If you're looking for specific flavor: flesh golems are made out of mostly humanoid bodies that haven't had much time to decay before being put to use while carrion golems are made out of all manner of body parts that are scavenged from the wild and are in more advanced stages of decay by the time they're used in constructing a golem.
AKA: The key is the difference between flesh and carrion. Flesh implies something that's still relatively fresh... or even more precisely, still living, but carrion is by definition "dead and putrefying flesh."
So when you use fresh flesh or flesh that's only recently dead, you can build a stronger golem than when you use carrion (stuff that's already well on the way into decay).
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Personally, I see the Flesh Golum as a bit of a Frankenstein's Monster (more Hollywood than not). Strong, tough, and while clearly made of dead men it is made with the best bits of corpses. On the other hand, a carrion golum is seen a little more as, "What do we have here... A dead dog, a torn-up tiger, a rotten rhino, a couple of butchered birds, and half of a hippo. Eh, good enough. IGOR!!! Let's get cooking!".
Carrion golems are less pleasant to bite, as my fighter/barbarian discovered. I believe he ended up with every disease off it save one... the lockjaw.
Removed a post. Please play nice with other posters.
You have removed a LOT of posts from my threads before I get a chance to read them lately. Am I being targeted by insults or something?
Mechanical differences are rather minor. Conceptually, however, they are almost identical! One's a strong rotting corpse and the other is a diseased rotting corpse.
Why was there really a need for the carrion golem when we already have the flesh golem?
At the very least, couldn't it have been called a plague golem or something similar?
One is higher CR than the other. That's pretty much it; we wanted to build a lower CR golem and carrion sounds cool.
If you're looking for specific flavor: flesh golems are made out of mostly humanoid bodies that haven't had much time to decay before being put to use while carrion golems are made out of all manner of body parts that are scavenged from the wild and are in more advanced stages of decay by the time they're used in constructing a golem.
AKA: The key is the difference between flesh and carrion. Flesh implies something that's still relatively fresh... or even more precisely, still living, but carrion is by definition "dead and putrefying flesh."
So when you use fresh flesh or flesh that's only recently dead, you can build a stronger golem than when you use carrion (stuff that's already well on the way into decay).
Thanks James! The more I think about it the less I mind the similarities (I just need to stop thinking about how they are similar, and more about how they are different).
In the original source of the carrion golem, PF 7, it was pretty explicitly the training-wheels version of a flesh golem. They're made by spellcasters because they're cheaper and easier to make than flesh golems and require less fresh humanoid bodies.
If you guys wanted low CR golem why not Doll, Papper/Orugami, Tin, Garbage/junk, etc. Also Mud, Wax, Rope, Chain, Web, Crystal, Sand, and Gold would be cool as golems too.
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In the original source of the carrion golem, PF 7, it was pretty explicitly the training-wheels version of a flesh golem. They're made by spellcasters because they're cheaper and easier to make than flesh golems and require less fresh humanoid bodies.
Alternately, and this also makes sense in context for PF #7, it's the non-OSHA compliant flesh golem. Want to show that the golem maker is a nasty piece of work that just doesn't care? Carrion Golems! ;)
Mechanical differences are rather minor. Conceptually, however, they are almost identical! One's a strong rotting corpse and the other is a diseased rotting corpse.
Why was there really a need for the carrion golem when we already have the flesh golem?
At the very least, couldn't it have been called a plague golem or something similar?
What's the difference between a flesh and a carrion golem? You're allowed to take on two of the latter to the airplane.
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Removed a post. Please play nice with other posters.You have removed a LOT of posts from my threads before I get a chance to read them lately. Am I being targeted by insults or something?
I've noticed in the 6 months that I've been here, you always seem to find an opposite end from whatever is being discussed. I get the feeling having read quite a few of your posts that you like to play the devil's advocate, and a lot of people don't deal well with individual's like you and I. The uneducated mind's response is to flame at you.
I've noticed in the 6 months that I've been here, you always seem to find an opposite end from whatever is being discussed. I get the feeling having read quite a few of your posts that you like to play the devil's advocate, and a lot of people don't deal well with individual's like you and I. The uneducated mind's response is to flame at you.Removed a post. Please play nice with other posters.You have removed a LOT of posts from my threads before I get a chance to read them lately. Am I being targeted by insults or something?
Many times he is asking seriously, not playing DA. There is a difference. Of course that does not justify the insults.
Heh. Liz nuked posts within 10 minutes of the topic being posted. This makes me laugh.
Guess James beat me to the punch this thread. *Shakes fist* But I'll be back next time, Jacobs, you'll see! And then I'll get you and your meddling little Mona too!
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Creative Director
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If you guys wanted low CR golem why not Doll, Papper/Orugami, Tin, Garbage/junk, etc. Also Mud, Wax, Rope, Chain, Web, Crystal, Sand, and Gold would be cool as golems too.
We could have done any of those. We probably will some day.
The carrion golem had the advantage over all of the ones you list by virtue of the fact that it has been part of Paizo products for years (first in the "Grove of the Mad Druid" Compleate Encounter, albiet under the heading of Compost Golem, and more recently in Pathfinder #7). The fact that we already had art for it and that it was another cool monster we could pick up from an Adventure Path had a lot more to do with things than us needing a low CR golem, frankly.
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If you're looking for specific flavor: flesh golems are made out of mostly humanoid bodies that haven't had much time to decay before being put to use while carrion golems are made out of all manner of body parts that are scavenged from the wild and are in more advanced stages of decay by the time they're used in constructing a golem.
This brings up something that always puzzled me about golems, both in the game and in their source material (Frankenstein, etc); why do they always seem to have required parts from so many donors?
If a crafter could get his hands on the fresh corpse of a powerful Adonis, would he be able to use the whole thing, as-is? Could you have a flesh golem that was functionally identical (or better?), with no tell-tale stitching?
I see a flesh golem being the crafter's master work and the carrion golems being more of the works in progress, personally.
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Removed a post. Please play nice with other posters.You have removed a LOT of posts from my threads before I get a chance to read them lately. Am I being targeted by insults or something?
Twas mine (first post of mine removed I think :O). I was in a bad mood and grumbled at the kinds of topics you tend to start. S'all good now though :)
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There's much on this topic in the place where Carrion Golem appears first: The Edge of Anarchy adventure. Cutting long story short: they are a poor man's (or rather poor wizard's) substitute for Flesh Golems, made up of whatever pieces of animal carcass is lying around, in lieu of "proper" humanoid flesh.
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why do they always seem to have required parts from so many donors?
In Shelley's Frankenstein, the multiple parts were because Dr. Frankenstein was attempting to create the perfect human - the strongest arms, the most attractive thighs, the most robust heart, etc. etc. It was the unnatural life surging through the parts that rendered what should have been a crowning pinnacle of humanity into a monster.
In D&D, it's because the game, for the last 30 years, pretty much slavishly stole the superficial aspects of popular culture while entirely ignoring the specific elements that made them interesting.
If a crafter could get his hands on the fresh corpse of a powerful Adonis, would he be able to use the whole thing, as-is?
You could not. One corpse means you're either resurrecting this Adonis (through alchemical/scientifictional means) or creating an undead menace. The composite nature of golems made from biological materials is the means by which formerly living materials are rendered spiritually inert, turning them into the required tabula rasa onto which the animating elemental spirit is imprinted.
If you guys wanted low CR golem why not Doll, Papper/Orugami, Tin, Garbage/junk, etc. Also Mud, Wax, Rope, Chain, Web, Crystal, Sand, and Gold would be cool as golems too.
I think the story of the wicker-man is a great inspiration for a golem concept. But I also think it is a little too limited, when it could be so much more. How about a simple template or something that could be used to create all kinds of walking piles of different materials with humanoid shapes, that you can stuff people inside and apply different elements to.
Don't forget about all the chocolate, gingerbread, spam, etc. food golems...
Emphasis added:
...a lot of people don't deal well with individual's like you and I. The uneducated mind's response is to flame at you.
That should read "you and me." "I" is a nominative case pronoun, and it cannot be the object of the preposition "like". Internet rule: When accusing others of being uneducated, make sure your grammar is correct. :p
Many times he is asking seriously, not playing DA. There is a difference. Of course that does not justify the insults.I've noticed in the 6 months that I've been here, you always seem to find an opposite end from whatever is being discussed. I get the feeling having read quite a few of your posts that you like to play the devil's advocate, and a lot of people don't deal well with individual's like you and I. The uneducated mind's response is to flame at you.Removed a post. Please play nice with other posters.You have removed a LOT of posts from my threads before I get a chance to read them lately. Am I being targeted by insults or something?
I remember when RD first started posting here. He drove me nuts! (Still does on occasion.) But I've learned to accept his fascination with minutia, and appreciate his eye for subleties in the rules.
I now find it worthwhile to at least drop in on his threads to see where the discussion is headed.
OK, this is just... just...
http://www.powells.com/images/news_spam.jpg
Sidetrack - When I first read posts by RD, I assumed he was just bending the rules to powergame, but after reading his posts for a while, I see that he uses every corner of the rule books, and examines parts of the game that often get handwaved by most. He might drive me a little crazy if I was his GM (not in a bad way), but I find his understanding of the game (not just rules, but the whole game) to be exceptional, and would be very interested in his playtest feedback and opinions.
OK, this is just... just...
http://www.powells.com/images/news_spam.jpg
Sidetrack - When I first read posts by RD, I assumed he was just bending the rules to powergame, but after reading his posts for a while, I see that he uses every corner of the rule books, and examines parts of the game that often get handwaved by most. He might drive me a little crazy if I was his GM (not in a bad way), but I find his understanding of the game (not just rules, but the whole game) to be exceptional, and would be very interested in his playtest feedback and opinions.
Basically what I meant, but said much more directly and understandably. Thanks, Fergie.
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Creative Director
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If a crafter could get his hands on the fresh corpse of a powerful Adonis, would he be able to use the whole thing, as-is? Could you have a flesh golem that was functionally identical (or better?), with no tell-tale stitching?
Perhaps... but that'd be a different creature entirely. Maybe something called a "corpse golem" or something like that. Or perhaps merely an animated object.
The reason why flesh golems are what they are is pretty much 100% because of "Frankenstein." I recommend reading that book to find out why Frankenstein built his monster out of multiple parts rather than just one body.
Other similar tales exist; one recent one that's quite good is "May," in which a character bemoans that there's no such thing as a perfect person, but there are lots of perfect parts.
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If you're looking for specific flavor: flesh golems are made out of mostly humanoid bodies that haven't had much time to decay before being put to use while carrion golems are made out of all manner of body parts that are scavenged from the wild and are in more advanced stages of decay by the time they're used in constructing a golem.This brings up something that always puzzled me about golems, both in the game and in their source material (Frankenstein, etc); why do they always seem to have required parts from so many donors?
If a crafter could get his hands on the fresh corpse of a powerful Adonis, would he be able to use the whole thing, as-is? Could you have a flesh golem that was functionally identical (or better?), with no tell-tale stitching?
If I remember correctly, the Flesh golem is large, so that's most likely the reason why you need more than one "donor". If you built one that was smaller (I believe there's a template for that) I bet you could get away with one source for parts. I bet a disguise check made at creation would be good enough for it to pass as the person it was in life.
==AKA 8one6
In Shelley's Frankenstein, the multiple parts were because Dr. Frankenstein was attempting to create the perfect human - the strongest arms, the most attractive thighs, the most robust heart, etc. etc. It was the unnatural life surging through the parts that rendered what should have been a crowning pinnacle of humanity into a monster.
I thought it was a monster because Egor stole a psycho-killer's brain from the morgue rather than a fresh scientist's brain--or some such.
Fergie/therealthom: Somebody actually understands me? *Squee!* That makes me so happy! :D
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The reason why flesh golems are what they are is pretty much 100% because of "Frankenstein." I recommend reading that book to find out why Frankenstein built his monster out of multiple parts rather than just one body.
Other similar tales exist; one recent one that's quite good is "May," in which a character bemoans that there's no such thing as a perfect person, but there are lots of perfect parts.
Hmmm....you like Lovecraft and May....are you sure you're not me?
In Shelley's Frankenstein, the multiple parts were because Dr. Frankenstein was attempting to create the perfect human - the strongest arms, the most attractive thighs, the most robust heart, etc. etc. It was the unnatural life surging through the parts that rendered what should have been a crowning pinnacle of humanity into a monster.I thought it was a monster because Egor stole a psycho-killer's brain from the morgue rather than a fresh scientist's brain--or some such.
Fergie/therealthom: Somebody actually understands me? *Squee!* That makes me so happy! :D
personally my reading was always that the "monster" became evil. He was driven to evil by the worlds rejection of him.
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personally my reading was always that the "monster" became evil. He was driven to evil by the worlds rejection of him.
It was this, though I think the fact that Victor Frankenstein was an absolutely horrible "father" who refused to take responsibility for his creation was the major factor that started the downward spiral.
The Creature doesn't start off as evil, but he goes down that road because the world refuses to stop kicking him, starting with dear old Dad.
It's part of why some recent interpretations of the characters tend to paint the Creature as a sympathetic and sometimes even heroic outcast while Frankenstein is made out to be a complete monster.
I thought it was a monster because Egor stole a psycho-killer's brain from the morgue rather than a fresh scientist's brain--or some such.
You mean Abby? Abby Normal?
RD -I believe you've gotten some Brooks in your Shelley! =-)
Emphasis added:
...a lot of people don't deal well with individual's like you and I. The uneducated mind's response is to flame at you.That should read "you and me." "I" is a nominative case pronoun, and it cannot be the object of the preposition "like". Internet rule: When accusing others of being uneducated, make sure your grammar is correct. :p
Not to mention that plurals are not constructed using apostrophes. "individual's" is a possessive, not a plural.
Spes Magna Mark wrote:
Emphasis added:
ThornDJL7 wrote:
...a lot of people don't deal well with individual's like you and I. The uneducated mind's response is to flame at you.That should read "you and me." "I" is a nominative case pronoun, and it cannot be the object of the preposition "like". Internet rule: When accusing others of being uneducated, make sure your grammar is correct. :p
Not to mention that plurals are not constructed using apostrophes. "individual's" is a possessive, not a plural.
This sort of blatant grammar vigilantism simply will not do!
I can't have the lot of you running around, taking the Grammar Enforcement Laws into your own hands!
This sort of blatant grammar vigilantism simply will not do!
I can't have the lot of you running around, taking the Grammar Enforcement Laws into your own hands!
Question: What is the most fitting punishment for those who use bad grammar?
Answer: To crush them, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
I thought it was a monster because Egor stole a psycho-killer's brain from the morgue rather than a fresh scientist's brain--or some such.
You mean Abby? Abby Normal?
RD -I believe you've gotten some Brooks in your Shelley! =-)
Actually, the Young Frankenstein scene is inspired by the original Boris Karloff movie version, in which Igor is startled and drops the jar with the brain he was sent to obtain. He then picks up the next available one, which was a damaged brain belonging to a criminal.
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The reason why flesh golems are what they are is pretty much 100% because of "Frankenstein." I recommend reading that book to find out why Frankenstein built his monster out of multiple parts rather than just one body.
It's a while since I read the book; I seem to recall it was a combination of the need for secrecy, forcing him to use executed criminals and go to paupers' cemeteries, and the widespread plague that meant most bodies were damaged. He also used larger specimens to reduce the difficulty of operating on the delicate tissues.
Did he intend to use the brain of his mentor, whose work he perfected? Or is that only in the Branagh version?
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I thought it was a monster because Egor stole a psycho-killer's brain from the morgue rather than a fresh scientist's brain--or some such.
That is nonsense created whole cloth by Universal Studios for their largely atrocious film adaptation.
Anyone wanting to use Flesh Golems in the spirit of the original should take an afternoon and read the original
It's short. Really, by today's standards it's a novella.
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Fergie/therealthom: Somebody actually understands me? *Squee!* That makes me so happy! :D
Whoa Nelly. I wouldn't go quite that far, big fella. :-)