You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but as others have mentioned, more specific examples would be useful both to potential customers as well as Paizo itself.
What everyone else has said.
Also,
The GM guide book that came out for Pathfinder really called into question my ability to keep buying their hardback books without reading them. Having gotten the other three first, I was so certain that the company could do little wrong that I didn't even read it before I bought it.
I don't understand. How can one disappointment out of four be enough to make you start questioning whether or not you could continue to buy their hardcovers unseen? A 75% enjoyment rate is pretty darned good.
I was hoping some other people would gang up on it with me, but sense that isn't happening, late tonight or tomorrow I'll post some specific examples. I'm at "work" right now.
Most people here are not just going to agree with an unsupported statement. You should always bring examples to the table(forum).
Looking for yes-men to rally against the fan bois on the fan bois' home turf is doomed to failure. I will support your freedom to state your opinion. Beyond that, you are on your own.
I don't understand. How can one disappointment out of four be enough to make you start questioning whether or not you could continue to buy their hardcovers unseen? A 75% enjoyment rate is pretty darned good.
75% is pretty good, but what I don't get is how anyone spends money without at least a basic level of product research. Caveat emptor. Always caveat emptor.
I did not buy it, I read the description and felt it was a book I could do without. My entertainment budget is severely constrained until I get over being new house poor. I have to pick and choose books. As I have read many guides on gamemastering, this one had to sit on the wayside as a purchase. Though, I cannot immagine advice being controversial, I could be wrong. I really have a tough time believing Paizo would put out anything "racist". Unless you mean it in a gaming context, as in favoring elven NPC"s or somesuch.
I do look forward to seeing your examples.
Greg
What were you expecting from the book? It's just like every other game master supplement. Some of the information was new for me but most wasn't. I have over 30 years of reading up on how to be a GM in many systems so it's hard to surprise me with the advice.
I liked the idea behind the player types but I didn't like the approach in some of the cases. I found the definition of power gamer and min/maxer to be a bit off since I don't see the two as synonymous. I also didn't like the suggestion on how to deal with that type of player. There are a few others as well, but that's one example that I personally didn't like.
I do think there is a lot of good information in there and I bought it for two reasons:
1) I like to own as many of the books about the games I play as possible. There is always something in there I can use.
2) I hope to not GM one day and giving a new GM something to read to help him or her is always a boon to me.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
I do like the GMG. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, but I have found many parts of the GMG useful. Here's a partial list of things I've used that have helped me GM:
random encounter tables for urban adventures
random generators for potions and scrolls
NPCs: specifically the cannibal, street thug, dealer, guard, and guard officer
city generation rules (updated Maginmar using the rules)
rules about drugs
advice on running mysteries
fortune-telling
games of chance.
I plan to use haunts and hazards at some point. I get a lot of mileage out of the NPCs and ideas from the many random lists as well.
Oooh! An invitation to discuss what is(n't) racist?
Sit down, four legs.
I agree that it's a mixed bag, but I'm not sure where the racism accusation came from.
I would have liked a Page 42 and some additional "GM's Toolkit"-ish sorts of things, but it does have Haunts, a pretty nifty little chase system, and so forth, so it's not like it has no value.
The GM advice, for the most part, is the same reprint of Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering[/url] that every game company has been putting out for a decade now. Are there really that many newbie GMs jumping straight into [i]Pathfinder? Seems unlikely to me, but I don't have Paizo's market data so I'm really not in any position to say.
-The Gneech
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
Sit down, four legs.Oooh! An invitation to discuss what is(n't) racist?
Damnit. I thought you left (again).
But, all that's in the past. This is a new day, and we will change; we know we can! This time will be different! You'll never have to leave again.
Besides, you can't leave us. You need us. When are you going to learn that nobody will love you except for us? We are the only ones who would put up with you and the messes you create!
I would have liked a Page 42....
But you do have a Page 42. So do I, since I glommed yours. :)
Lords of light!
Saddle up, Pony Boy!Ride, Ookla, ride!
Demon dogs!
When are you going to learn that nobody will love you except for us?
You love me? Normally I have to wait until your lips move to tell you are lying.
Lords of light!
Lords of Light: No matter how fearsome the night, relief is as near as the next sunrise. Light scatters the darkness and reveals the unholy creatures that dwell in lightless spaces. The purifying, protective powers of light better prepare you to face supernatural threats. You gain a +1 trait bonus on saves against spells with darkness, death, evil, or fear descriptors.
;)
I'm not a huge fan of the GMG, but since my kids will be running games one day, they should find it useful.
Guys,
No piling on the newbie, until he posts something to pile on, ok?
We want to be civil here.
Indeed. I've removed a post or two.
|
The thing that one has to remember is that the GMG is geared to newer GM's and not necessarily the veteran GM's. While there is some extremely useful advice for both new GM's and veterans alike. You are less likely to enjoy the book if you are a veteran.
I have been gaming since 1974 as a GM and yet I bought the book because I enjoy reading about something I might not know. While some of the advice included in this book is rehashed from other books and general advice I have seen before. Some of the advice is not repeated and new to me. I enjoyed it immensely. It gave some new game mechanics such as Haunts and Even chase mechanics was very useful. The NPC's were and are useful because I use Hero Labs. In Hero Labs I am able to pull an NPC out of a stock portfolio and pull it in to an encounter with the click of a mouse button. Which is very very useful for me as a GM.
Each book though is as useful as the person needs it to be. If it was not that useful in the description then the OP might have done a little more research in to the book before hand and waited for the reviews and what people thought about the book before he bought it since he was seemingly on the fence about purchasing the book. This is just my humble opinion though, as strong or weak as it can be :)
Indeed. I've removed a post or two.Guys,
No piling on the newbie, until he posts something to pile on, ok?
We want to be civil here.
sorry
*popcorn*
Have an extra bowl?
Yeah, I'm pretty interested on how generic pregenerated NPCs are "racist". (Perhaps he meant the art?)
I'd also like to know how the ecology of the game world supports the 9th level town mayor as a basic pre-gen. I suppose anyone with the stuff to run a town has the stuff to slaughter 5 or 6 thousand goblins.
This is, in particular, a huge beef of mine.
Not the 9th level mayor of a town, that's about right.
What I have a beef with is GMs who only reward EXP for killing things. God that's annoying. You work your hardest to RP your character, interact with people, bypass and defuse tense situations, and your reward? NADA, BUPKIS, ZIPPP!!!!
This is a FAILING in a GM. It's a FAILING in your world design if the only way to level up is to kill things. Killing things should not be the end and begin all of gaining exp. Smiths gain exp from making items, as that's their job. Adventurer's gain EXP from killing and interacting with others, that's their job. A noble gets exp from ruling his *@*#& country, that's his job.
Anything else is ends up with the stupidity of a world where Conan is the only man who can be a king, because he's the only guy who can single handedly kill 500 men and level up.
EDIT : /RANT
Sorry about the rant, just got a button pushed is all.
Wayfinder, PaizoCon Founder
|
Like I said, I don't have the book with me today. I do recall the page with the pre-generated native american cannibals to be a touch racist. "Chiefs of the indigenous people lead packs of cannibals to eat the flesh of white travelers..." it was something along those lines.
I have my book right here next to me.....the chieftain text says nothing of the sort. "Chieftains lead cannibal tribes and other savage groups through raw strength, fierce cunning, and sheer force of will." That's the sentence. No mention in the entire Tribe section of NPCs mentions anything about "white travelers". Going down to the next paragraph: "As with shamans and cannibals, chieftains can rule either proud, noble barbarian groups or bestial, degenerate cannibal tribes." The text recognizes the full spectrum of possibilities. I do concur that naming the CR1 NPC "cannibal" is out of sorts with the shaman and chieftain descriptions. Even in the Cannibal text, it says "Cannibals can also be used as regular barbarian tribesmen. "Tribesman" or "Warrior" might have been better.
It wouldn't have been so bad if it wasn't for the artwork of the native american on the side to give an example of what a cannibal looks like.
Again, "tribesman" would have been better. The image depicted is definitely NOT a cannibal....it's most likely a shaman. Just because it's next to the entry, doesn't mean it IS that entry. Looking at the other NPC categories, many of them depict the 2nd or 3rd NPC templates.
I'm not discounting your opinions, here. I can see how a cursory perusal would lead you to such an impression. I'm just saying that I opened my book, and read the entire section, and can only agree that the "cannibal" label is a bit...unfortunate...and does not reflect the intent in the text.
|
Put me down as another person that really did not appreciate "cannibal" being the baseline NPC name under the Tribal section.
Yeah, that right next to the Native American-themed art was pretty damn uncomfortable to me.
I'm not saying it was done out of active malice, but that(and other race-related issues that I don't want to derail this thread with) is an example of stuff I hope Paizo actively works to avoid in the future.
You know, using the middle experience table, a party of four can level up every couple of games, every two or three really, fighting absolutely nothing that has an honest chance of killing them. If you start stacking on experience for talking to people characters will be leveling every other session.
Which leads to one logical conclusion of the game: 17 year old supermen.
Another one is the 9th level town mayor, which is by my count stupid as all hell, because if he got those levels by being great at leading his people by talking, he shouldn't have such awesome killing ability for no reason. I guess sense he lives in the D&D world, all that talking gave him the drive to do two finger pushups and the superhuman reflexes to kill a dozen men.
You would be right if going up in levels didn't actually confer killing ability, but a 9th level town mayor is awesome at fighting. If it said he had 12 hit points, an AC of 12, and a +14 to Diplomacy, sure I'd buy that. If it said he had 2nd level fighting and 9th level talking, I'd buy that as a basic write up as well. That isn't how Pathfinder works. 9th level fighting, as a regular mayor of a regular town? That is a lot of 9th level fighters all over the world, a lot of Huma Dragonbanes.
I don't actually have the GMG, so I'm just going to ask a few questions to get a better clarification of the situation. Does this 9th level mayor have a +9 base attack bonus to indicate he's awesome at fighting, or does he have the +4 base attack bonus, indicating he has the minimum level of fighting ability required of a 9th level character to remain basic rules-legal? Does he have the D10 hit dice of a veteran combat master, or the D6 indicating minimum level of combat training? Does he have Power Attack, Martial Weapon Proficiencies, Heavy Armor Proficiency, or feats like Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Persuasive? Making him 9th level to get his diplomatic and knowledge skills up to par and appropriate skill feats seems fine to me. Besides, the mayor probably survived an assassination attempt or two, so even Great Fortitude or Toughness might not be uncalled for in my book.
In the D20 system, levels automatically come with combat ability. It's a failing of the system, not of the GMG alone. Giving an administrator or an expert the minimum combat ability required by the system doesn't reflect poorly on Paizo- they did what they could without flagrantly ignoring the rules you're ostensibly trying to buy. It really sounds like you'd be happier playing GURPS or a modified White Wolf point-buy system rather than D20 if it weren't for the large volume of work involved.
I don't actually have the GMG, so I'm just going to ask a few questions to get a better clarification of the situation. Does this 9th level mayor have a +9 base attack bonus to indicate he's awesome at fighting, or does he have the +4 base attack bonus, indicating he has the minimum level of fighting ability required of a 9th level character to remain basic rules-legal? Does he have the D10 hit dice of a veteran combat master, or the D6 indicating minimum level of combat training? Does he have Power Attack, Martial Weapon Proficiencies, Heavy Armor Proficiency, or feats like Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Persuasive? Making him 9th level to get his diplomatic and knowledge skills up to par and appropriate skill feats seems fine to me. Besides, the mayor...
He's done up as an Aristocrat 3/Expert 7 (note, 10th level character, not 9th).
He has sucky stats (8/10/10/14/11/14)
He appears to have been done up as a 'came up through the ranks' type, alertness, combat expertise, Greater Disarm, Improved Disarm, Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Skill Focus (Knowledge Local). Most of his skill points are where you'd expect them, diplomacy, knowledge, bluff, sense motive, profession and perform.
If I had to guess, I'd say he came up through the ranks either as city watch, or former military career as a scout. In no way is he overpowered for a town mayor, nor is he all that strange a character. The NPC class levels are pretty blah.
Put me down as another person that really did not appreciate "cannibal" being the baseline NPC name under the Tribal section.
Yeah, that right next to the Native American-themed art was pretty damn uncomfortable to me.
I'm not saying it was done out of active malice, but that(and other race-related issues that I don't want to derail this thread with) is an example of stuff I hope Paizo actively works to avoid in the future.
*sigh* And I was going to watch the fun (puts down popcorn)... The native American themed art was, imo, the Shaman. Girl. kneeling in supplication with wolf image = Shaman. There isn't any specific art related to the other two. I suppose a picture of a Polynesian / South Pacific native near the cannibal description would have been all right with you? Or is the objection to cannibalism in any (human) group? Cannibalism (ritual) has been practiced by numerous societies on pretty much every continent. While they could have named it a "tribesman" and mentioned cannibal as a possibility *someone* would have been upset, no matter the artistic depiction used...
While discussing race on the messageboards is *always* an invitation to disaster, I will say that if you read the text accompanying all the stat blocks, you'll see that we made a clear effort to distinguish between so-called "savage" tribes (malicious cannibals, feral humanoids, etc.) and bands of noble and heroic tribal people. The stat blocks can be used for either, hence the reason they're on the same spread--it's not a comment on character or race. It would certainly have been nice if the shaman illo (which was clearly Native American inspired) could go next to the shaman stat block, but these layouts were templated, and we honestly didn't think anyone would be confused, given the obvious dichotomy between the image and the description of "cannibal." Probably it would have been better to just call the stat block "tribal warrior" and then mention the fact that you could use the stats to represent both good and evil players, but so it goes. If we've offended you, mea culpa.
I'll now leave the subject with the words of Stephen Radney-MacFarland, who in response to this thread, said only: "If I had a problem with Native Americans, I wouldn't have married one."
|
|
*sigh* And I was going to watch the fun (puts down popcorn)... The native American themed art was, imo, the Shaman. Girl. kneeling in supplication with wolf image = Shaman. There isn't any specific art related to the other two. I suppose a picture of a Polynesian / South Pacific native near the cannibal description would have been all right with you?Put me down as another person that really did not appreciate "cannibal" being the baseline NPC name under the Tribal section.
Yeah, that right next to the Native American-themed art was pretty damn uncomfortable to me.
I'm not saying it was done out of active malice, but that(and other race-related issues that I don't want to derail this thread with) is an example of stuff I hope Paizo actively works to avoid in the future.
No, it would not. And frankly I am insulted by your supposition.
Slapping the analogue of any real-world "primitive" culture right next to the Cannibal NPC as it was written would have been equally insulting.
Or is the objection to cannibalism in any (human) group? Cannibalism (ritual) has been practiced by numerous societies on pretty much every continent. While they could have named it a "tribesman" and mentioned cannibal as a possibility *someone* would have been upset, no matter the artistic depiction used...
Except these cannibals were described as bestial/degenerate. It was clearly meant to evoke that pulp vision of primitive societies.
It would have been far better to have simply presented them as tribal warriors rather than open with such a loaded term as "Cannibal".
All of that said, I'm glad Paizo is at least aware that some of us have issues with the way some things have gone, and it sounds like they're sensitive to the matter rather than brushing it off.
I don't actually have the GMG, so I'm just going to ask a few questions to get a better clarification of the situation. Does this 9th level mayor have a +9 base attack bonus to indicate he's awesome at fighting, or does he have the +4 base attack bonus, indicating he has the minimum level of fighting ability required of a 9th level character to remain basic rules-legal? Does he have the D10 hit dice of a veteran combat master, or the D6 indicating minimum level of combat training? Does he have Power Attack, Martial Weapon Proficiencies, Heavy Armor Proficiency, or feats like Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Persuasive? Making him 9th level to get his diplomatic and knowledge skills up to par and appropriate skill feats seems fine to me. Besides, the mayor...He's done up as an Aristocrat 3/Expert 7 (note, 10th level character, not 9th).
He has sucky stats (8/10/10/14/11/14)
He appears to have been done up as a 'came up through the ranks' type, alertness, combat expertise, Greater Disarm, Improved Disarm, Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Skill Focus (Knowledge Local). Most of his skill points are where you'd expect them, diplomacy, knowledge, bluff, sense motive, profession and perform.
If I had to guess, I'd say he came up through the ranks either as city watch, or former military career as a scout. In no way is he overpowered for a town mayor, nor is he all that strange a character. The NPC class levels are pretty blah.
+1 mdt.
Besides I doubt most NPC class characters go up via the usual adventuring route. Most probably just hang out and practice their trade, slowly gaining experience and going up a level every 3-5 years or so. A smith practices at being a smith, a farmer as a farmer, and so on. Even town guards / the watch don't necessarily go up just through combat. Daily practice has to yield experience. And if any PC wants to wait that long to go up a level, I'm fine with it :) I made this leap right after looking at the NPC charts for the first time. Otherwise, why 20 level NPC classes? Someone who battles Goblins all the time going to stick with Commoner levels? My yeoman frontier farmers / longbowmen split their levels between Commoner and Warrior. They'll never see level 20 in either. Same with the towns guilds craftsmen / guild militia. But it works for them and makes sense in the setting. A level 7 expert (say smith), level 3 aristocrat (after gaining in wealth and being elected to office) 30 or so years in makes sense.
Now, back to the popcorn...