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According to the rules:
At 11th level, a paladin can expend two uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses....
This is clear, but, regarding smite evil:
If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite...... Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite...
I understand that:
1. The paladin Aura of justice grant the smite evil ability ONLY to the paladin allies, NOT also to the paladin himself. He need to use an additional smite evil to gain the bonuses;
2. The smite evil granted to the allies doesn't modify the allies AC, but only their attack bonuses;
3. The smite evil ability granted to the allies allow them to bypass all the DR the the enemy may have.
Am I wrong?
However, it seem to me that this ability is absolutely unbalanced....
Greetings, fellow traveller.
According to my reading, the aura also grants the deflection bonus to armor class for all allies.
And yes, it is a powerful ability, but not all allies will directly attack the villain all the time.
Also, the paladin has to spend two uses of her SE ability (at lvl 11 a paladin, has 4 SE/day). So for a particular fight this would be an expenditure of 3 SE to grant the ability to the whole party.
The 10 ft. condition narrows the usefulness even further down - the squishy members will most likely want to stay further away from the fray (in my games SE does only work on melee weapons excluding natural attacks). Now, if you have an archer paladin, things look different.
Ruyan.
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This is why a Paladin + leadership + (10 to 15) 1st level sorcerers all casting Acid Arrow is fun!
10 to 15 ranged touch attacks against the BEG at bab+Paladin's CHA, Damage is 2d4+11 * number of hits, ignore DR, no saving throw, no spell resistance.
Going against an ancient Red dragon (cr 19) assuming the paladin gets the drop (which should never happen :P) it should work out like this:
Attacks, 15 @ +4 to hit vs the Dragons touch AC of 5 at a range of 440 feet.
Assuming no 1's rolled we have:
30d4+330 ((2d4+22)*15)) acid damage due to the fact that the target is an evil dragon. Normal would be 30d6+165 ((2d4+11)*15))
min damage: 360
average damage: 390
max damage: 450
The dragon gets no saving throw, no spell resistance, and no DR! It also only has about 362 (per RAW) hit points.
(I love theorycraft!)
the moral of the story, if you are a BEG (especially if undead, evil outsider, or evil dragon) do not ever trust a Paladin traveling with 10+ low level people. Always nuke first!
BTW all, if you missed it. This is a joke. Any DM worth their salt would not play a CR19 evil dragon as stupid enough to allow this to happen. But the thought is funny.
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1. The paladin Aura of justice grant the smite evil ability ONLY to the paladin allies, NOT also to the paladin himself. He need to use an additional smite evil to gain the bonuses;
2. The smite evil granted to the allies doesn't modify the allies AC, but only their attack bonuses;
3. The smite evil ability granted to the allies allow them to bypass all the DR the the enemy may have.Am I wrong?
However, it seem to me that this ability is absolutely unbalanced....
1;Yea
2; Why wouldn't it also hit the allies AC?
3; Yea
And yes, it is incredibly strong, to the point where my DM and I limit it to just one friendly. Though our party is over sized which makes it even stronger.
What really surprised me was when they changed Smite to its current form, they didn't touch this ability at all.
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We had a fight with a havero in which he paladin granted his allies the use of his smite evil.
For those without the stats handy, haveros have a large DR "/-". One round later, the PC's had eliminated nearly half of the haveros hp.
Ok, great that's what called for in the rules.
Our issue is whether the "10 ft." requirement lasts the entire duration of smite evil or only when the allies are within 10 ft. of the paladin. Are the allies shackled or free to roam?
For example, say a Paladin use Aura of Justice, which gives Fighter and Ranger allies Smite Evil. Fighter charges bad guy, moving more than 10 ft. Ranger delays turn until Paladin charges next round, and they both attack.
Clearly Ranger gets Smite Evil. But did Fighter maintain it after charging? If he lost it, did he get it back when Paladin came within 10 ft.?
I ruled that in the future Fighter will lose Smite Evil and not get it back, but I've been told by a WoW player that I "obviously misunderstood the whole purpose of 'aura powers'."
How would you rule?
One note: you count as one of your allies unless otherwise noted.
So Aura of Justice grants the smite to the Paladin himself.
We had a fight with a havero in which he paladin granted his allies the use of his smite evil.
For those without the stats handy, haveros have a large DR "/-". One round later, the PC's had eliminated nearly half of the haveros hp.
Ok, great that's what called for in the rules.
Our issue is whether the "10 ft." requirement lasts the entire duration of smite evil or only when the allies are within 10 ft. of the paladin. Are the allies shackled or free to roam?
For example, say a Paladin use Aura of Justice, which gives Fighter and Ranger allies Smite Evil. Fighter charges bad guy, moving more than 10 ft. Ranger delays turn until Paladin charges next round, and they both attack.
Clearly Ranger gets Smite Evil. But did Fighter maintain it after charging? If he lost it, did he get it back when Paladin came within 10 ft.?
I ruled that in the future Fighter will lose Smite Evil and not get it back, but I've been told by a WoW player that I "obviously misunderstood the whole purpose of 'aura powers'."
How would you rule?
We had a few of the same questions come up a few weeks back. I ruled pretty much the same, ie: if you're in the 10 ft aura then you get the ability, if you step out it fades immediately. If a character steps back in he wouldn't get the smite back due to the magic (charges of SE) having already been spent. WoW is a completely different game and shouldnt be compared to a PnP tabletop game, aura powers in wow could work completely different.
I had a similar question as well. When the aura of justice is granted to the people within 10' radius, it essentially grants them the smite power. From the reading this allows them to pick their own smite target and not one that the paladin picks (ie 5 pcs could pick 5 different smite targets). Is this correct?
I have read the RAW as allowing allies to subsequently move outside range while still Smiting.
(which is incredibly powerful because it means allies DON`T need to stay bunched up, and can Smite different targets on opposite sides of battle-field)
The ability isn`t granting Smite bonuses to allies, but grants the ABILITY to Smite (with Pally`s own bonuses), meaning all allies must use their own (free) action to initiate the Smite in the first place. To me, it would seem too strange to have the ability to Smite, starting your Smite, and then moving outside of AoJ`s range means your Smite would suddenly stop. Aura of Justice more or less has a duration of 1 round, so I don´t see why it`s targets need to restrict themselves to it`s AoE while they are Smiting (when AoJ is no longer in effect).
An alternative approach, which doesn`t really correspond to the RAW at all, is having Aura of Justice´s ´Embued Smites´ only function within AoJ`s AoE (10´ radius) but continually be in effect, e.g. if new allies (like Summons) come within the AoJ they would be subject to it`s effect... This version would make more sense if all AoJ targets automatically gained the Smite benefits (against the SAME target specified by Paladin) instead of needing to activate Smite themselves (vs. whatever target they want). I honestly would prefer such a version, but it`s clearly a house-rule for now.
I have no idea what Warcraft players understanding of Aura effects is, or if that has relevance to D&D, but personally it seems like the current RAW (as I describe/interpret above) doesn`t conform to what I would call an Aura, which I would classify as an ongoing passive effect (at least once activated) - all the other Paladin Auras DO conform to that definition, tellingly. Currently Aura of Justice is a 1 round duration effect which grants it`s targets an ability for that duration, which when used triggers a Smite that lasts for 1 minute.
This issue was brougth up previously, simultaneously to when the 2x Smite vs. Big Evil was brought up, so Paizo clearly chose to pass up dealing with it/modifying this aspect when they modifed the 2x Smite.
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Well, as an active ability (Unlike the other auras), I think that the paladin simply transfers divine energy in nearby allies. If it is transferred, it stays with them until the paladin's next turn. They do say that the bonuses last for 1 minute, right? Being shackled to the paladin would be rather useless, a simple withdraw action would spoil a 11 level ability (and half the resources of a primary class ability) ? No way.
You activate the aura, and then everybody is on his own.
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Well, as an active ability (Unlike the other auras), I think that the paladin simply transfers divine energy in nearby allies. If it is transferred, it stays with them until the paladin's next turn. They do say that the bonuses last for 1 minute, right? Being shackled to the paladin would be rather useless, a simple withdraw action would spoil a 11 level ability (and half the resources of a primary class ability) ? No way.
You activate the aura, and then everybody is on his own.
An 11th level ability that rips any evil encounter a new keister if its interpreted in that fashion as well. It's by no means 1/2 the resources of an 11th level paladin (1/2 the resources and 1/2 the uses per day of one ability are very different measurements). Being shackled to the paladin is not that big a hindrance to a smart party. I think its a pretty well balanced ability if they have to remain within the 10' radius, but its pretty much the 'I win' button on evil encounters if they're just allowed to go wherever they want for 1 minute. The joke about the paladin and his 10 cohorts is a prime example of why I think it has a few more healthy restrictions than are specifically detailed although they should be. It's an awesome ability and I think it should be, just not as powerful as that version makes the party.
One note: you count as one of your allies unless otherwise noted.
So Aura of Justice grants the smite to the Paladin himself.
Is there in the Core Rulebook any reference to substain your words?
I'm asking because "allies" is different from "creature". If the rules would state "creatures" I would agree wuth you without doubt, but... you can't be an ally of yourself.....| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Our issue is whether the "10 ft." requirement lasts the entire duration of smite evil or only when the allies are within 10 ft. of the paladin. Are the allies shackled or free to roam?........
I ruled that in the future Fighter will lose Smite Evil and not get it back, but I've been told by a WoW player that I "obviously misunderstood the whole purpose of 'aura powers'."
How would you rule?
In my opinion rules doesn't ask to the players to stay within 10' of the Paladin during their Smite evil attacks.
Aura of Justice isn't a spread, just an aura (I would regard it as a burst).Moreover, I don't understand why someone doesn't allow to use the smite evil is missile attacks.
Unfortunately the rules doesn't put any limitation to the type of attack that can be used with the smite evil ability.
Not only, it is awful that the ability LAST in time (24 hours or until another smite is thrown)for the paladin: if the target run away and return, i.e after thrre hour, it is still under the smite influence.
Really, I think that both AoJ and SE are overpowered.
An errata by Paizo would be welcome.
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2; Why wouldn't it also hit the allies AC?
The rules say that the AC bonus is IN ADDITION.
So I read that it is an additional bonus granted to the PALADIN while smiting, not a part of the smite itself.Is there any possibility to have an OFFICIAL answer by Paizo staff?
One note: you count as one of your allies unless otherwise noted.
So Aura of Justice grants the smite to the Paladin himself.
Is there in the Core Rulebook any reference to substain your words?
I'm asking because "allies" is different from "creature". If the rules would state "creatures" I would agree wuth you without doubt, but... you can't be an ally of yourself.....
You can find it in the official FAQ here.
Core Rulebook FAQ: GM Rules
Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies." (SKR 10/12/10)
–Sean K Reynolds (10/12/10)
Greetings, fellow travellers.
Moreover, I don't understand why someone doesn't allow to use the smite evil is missile attacks.
This refers to my earlier post, I think.
Well, first it is a fluff thing. The paladin's code in my games states, that only in melee should evil be vanquished honourably.
Second, it's a balance thing. I do not want to be the paladin the lone-super-star in my groups, having him be the one who takes the stage too often, making the others feel like bystanders.
Good catch, on the FAQ, wraith! After submitting my initial post, I thought I remembered Sean's post, but wasn't able to find it.
Concerning the function of the aura, my interpretation is, that it is a passive effect, originating from the paladin.
If they move too far away, the effect is gone - though the 1 round duration strikes me as stupid (and would make my interpretation senseless in turn).
Ruyan.
Good catch, on the FAQ, wraith! After submitting my initial post, I thought I remembered Sean's post, but wasn't able to find it.
To be fair, Kaiyanwang quoted the right rule long before I did; I merely pointed out the right place where to look for ;)
Well, as an active ability (Unlike the other auras), I think that the paladin simply transfers divine energy in nearby allies. If it is transferred, it stays with them until the paladin's next turn. They do say that the bonuses last for 1 minute, right? Being shackled to the paladin would be rather useless, a simple withdraw action would spoil a 11 level ability (and half the resources of a primary class ability) ? No way.
You activate the aura, and then everybody is on his own.
We have always played it as the Aura moves with the paladin. So if the Fighter ran out of the 10 ft he lost the ability. Though when the fighter returns to the 10 ft aura, or if the paladin moves in close, the ability is returned.
To be fair, Kaiyanwang quoted the right rule long before I did; I merely pointed out the right place where to look for ;)
Good catch, on the FAQ, wraith! After submitting my initial post, I thought I remembered Sean's post, but wasn't able to find it.
yeah, but I was too lazy to find the FAQ ;)
1. The paladin Aura of justice grant the smite evil ability ONLY to the paladin allies, NOT also to the paladin himself. He need to use an additional smite evil to gain the bonuses;
2. The smite evil granted to the allies doesn't modify the allies AC, but only their attack bonuses;
3. The smite evil ability granted to the allies allow them to bypass all the DR the the enemy may have.
Dear All,
Your posting here and some search allow me to make the following additional consideration on the smite-evil subject:1. The smnite evil attack alone doesn't bypass any DR. It is stated in the "celestial" template (from Bestiary).
It allows only to to make a smite attack (+1/HD to damage and charisma get through it.
So the smite ability granted by a Paladin aura allow only to add the paladin bonuses to her friends attacks on evil foes.
2. If those attack were like the Paladin smite-ability, the smite description would say "as a paladin", similar to how creatures with the evasion ability might say "see rogue", etc.
For a direct example, the Half-Celestial template (fron Bestiary too), has a different text:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day as a swift action the half-celestial can smite evil as a paladin of the same level as its Hit Dice. The smite persists until the target is dead of the half-celestial rests.
It bypass DR and allow to any AC deflection bonuses (as a Paladin do).
It seem this make some sense and makes the Aura of faith a still powerful, but at least in some way playble power.
In my opinion, the evil foes should flee as soon as possible, just to present later....
Anyone disagree?
Dear All,
After some months of play an additional question on the smite-evil subject:
1. The smite evil attack consist of a +1/HD to damage and charisma bonus to hit
2. The core rulebook say that:
Smite Evil (Su)
.... Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
A big question (maybe I mastered wrongly in the last two years): does ONLY the bonus damage (+1hp/level) bypass the DR? It would make sense... the smite attack now is a real tactical nuclear weapon....
After all the smite is a BONUS.
3. Does the Smite attack by-pass also epic DR? In this case it make sense that the bonuses ONLY bypass the DR. Otherwise a high level paladin could hit and kill a demon lord with epic DR easly.
all the damage goes thru DR.
smite evil applies a bonus to an attack. there is only one attack, and that bypasses the DR.
it bypasses epic DR because it says ALL DR, and epic DR is still DR.
if some DR says 'this DR isn't bypassed by attacks that can normally bypass any DR' then it wouldn't work.
if you're worried about the power level of smite, here's my recommendations:
- remove the x2 smite bonus dmg on first hit vs. certain types of evil creatures.
- alter how aura of justice works. i recommend making it work like an ACTUAL 'aura', i.e. an emanation whose affects only apply to creatures actually in the aura, i.e. once they leave the area they can't use Smite anymore. you could also change it so that YOU specify ONE Smite target for all your Aura Allies to use, so each ally can't target a different enemy (which can be more efficient).
Thanks Quandary
unluckly I hate to use many house rules... :-(
In the case I'd prefer to alter the DR by-pass from the Smite attack.
If your reading (that was also mine..until I realized that this attack became a total game-wrecker) is correct PF game has a problem: a party with a Paladin is practically unbeatable by a group of evil foes of equal level.... Or, worse, by a huge demon lord.
1. The paladin Aura of justice grant the smite evil ability ONLY to the paladin allies, NOT also to the paladin himself. He need to use an additional smite evil to gain the bonuses;
Correct.
2. The smite evil granted to the allies doesn't modify the allies AC, but only their attack bonuses;
No, they gain the whole shebang, including AC bonus. Note that this is a deflection bonus, so it will not stack with a ring of protection which is pretty standard issue by 11th level, though.
3. The smite evil ability granted to the allies allow them to bypass all the DR the the enemy may have.
Correct.
However, it seem to me that this ability is absolutely unbalanced....
Why? Consider your standard party: Melee hitter, skills-monkey, divine-caster, arcane-caster. The paladin IS the melee hitter, so he is gaining nothing he didn't already have. The skills-monkey is not an aweseome fighter, so he is getting a boost up a decent fighter. The same for the divine-caster. The arcane-caster, well, he's probably not much cop in a fight anyway. If he does engage in a fight with this, it's probably just enough to make him score hits and damage where he otherwise wouldn't have a prayer.
Having played a party up to 15th level, the paladin has pulled this trick a few times. It works best when the party have been surrounded, are outnumbered, and those that prefer to fight at range or with spells have been wrong-footed and are about to become hamburger. All of a sudden, everyone becomes an effective melee fighter, and the party can hold their own.
If you have a party of combat classes, of course, it becomes much more effective and they all becomes paladins for a few rounds, but then they have their own limitations.
It's a powerful ability, but not unbalanced.
1. The paladin Aura of justice grant the smite evil ability ONLY to the paladin allies, NOT also to the paladin himself. He need to use an additional smite evil to gain the bonuses
Correct.
No Dabbler, this is wrong.
I have already found the source. See my previous posts.2. The smite evil granted to the allies doesn't modify the allies AC, but only their attack bonuses
No, they gain the whole shebang, including AC bonus. Note that this is a deflection bonus, so it will not stack with a ring of protection which is pretty standard issue by 11th level, though.
No, this too is wrong.
3. The smite evil ability granted to the allies allow them to bypass all the DR the the enemy may have.
Correct.
No. Wrong.
However, it seem to me that this ability is absolutely unbalanced....It's a powerful ability, but not unbalanced.
In real, I'm playing a high level group.. it is TIOTALLY unbalanced.... or better, it was until I found the celestial and half-celestial template description....
In real, I'm playing a high level group.. it is TIOTALLY unbalanced.... or better, it was until I found the celestial and half-celestial template description....1. The paladin Aura of justice grant the smite evil ability ONLY to the paladin allies, NOT also to the paladin himself. He need to use an additional smite evil to gain the bonuses
Correct.
No Dabbler, this is wrong.
I have already found the source. See my previous posts.2. The smite evil granted to the allies doesn't modify the allies AC, but only their attack bonuses
No, they gain the whole shebang, including AC bonus. Note that this is a deflection bonus, so it will not stack with a ring of protection which is pretty standard issue by 11th level, though.
No, this too is wrong.
3. The smite evil ability granted to the allies allow them to bypass all the DR the the enemy may have.
Correct.
No. Wrong.
However, it seem to me that this ability is absolutely unbalanced....It's a powerful ability, but not unbalanced.
I am pretty sure Dabbler is wrong on the first one, the paladin does count as an ally.
Your allies do get THE SAME bonuses the paladin gets though, regardless of the level or HD of the ally, so dabbler is right here. Imagine the CRB was the first book written and the paladin's description is the only smite evil to go on, don't look too far to find an answer you like better. This includes penetrating DR, the only exception is that they use the paladin's bonuses, so not their own charisma or level and it only lasts a minute. They do still have to actually spend a swift action to activate smite evil and pick a target, the paladin only gives them the ability to use it.
To be clear, I do think it is an overpowered easily abusable ability but I do not see a reason for RAW to work differently, if you do not like it houserule it. A suggestion would be to exchange it for another ability from one of the archetypes or significantly nerve the ability.
I am pretty sure Dabbler is wrong on the first one, the paladin does count as an ally.
I've actually been playing it that way to, but I thought Abba was right when he first mentioned it, I stand corrected.
Your allies do get THE SAME bonuses the paladin gets though, regardless of the level or HD of the ally, so dabbler is right here. Imagine the CRB was the first book written and the paladin's description is the only smite evil to go on, don't look too far to find an answer you like better. This includes penetrating DR, the only exception is that they use the paladin's bonuses, so not their own charisma or level and it only lasts a minute. They do still have to actually spend a swift action to activate smite evil and pick a target, the paladin only gives them the ability to use it.
Exactly - it says they get smite evil like the paladin does. The paladin's smite evil bypasses DR and grants an AC deflection bonus. What's hard to understand?
To be clear, I do think it is an overpowered easily abusable ability but I do not see a reason for RAW to work differently, if you do not like it houserule it. A suggestion would be to exchange it for another ability from one of the archetypes or significantly nerve the ability.
Like I say, I've seen it used in a level 15 party of six consisting of: Fighter, ranger/rogue, paladin, druid, sorcerer, bard, and it hasn't come across as broken to me. Sure, when the paladin pulls it out everybody grins and reaches for their dice but it's no worse than the bard's buffs. The fighter finds it handy, but his damage is so off the scale already it doesn't make a huge difference.
Exactly - it says they get smite evil like the paladin does. The paladin's smite evil bypasses DR and grants an AC deflection bonus. What's hard to understand?
NO. It says that the party get the same BONUSES. It is totally different.
Please read the previous posts of this discussion.However, I wasn't asking anything about the aura of justice. I was wondering about the smite evil ability to bypass any DR.
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Strange, that's not what it says here:
Aura of Justice (Su)
At 11th level, a paladin can expend two uses of her smite evil ability to grant the ability to smite evil to all allies within 10 feet, using her bonuses. Allies must use this smite evil ability by the start of the paladin's next turn and the bonuses last for 1 minute. Using this ability is a free action. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability.
So they use the bonuses of the paladin granting the ability to smite evil instead of their own levels and modifiers, but THEY gain the ability to smite evil, seems pretty clear to me.
So if you are a 12th level paladin with 18 charisma, you can grant your allies the ability to smite evil for +4 to hit, +4 deflection bonus to AC, +12 damage. Other than the size of those bonuses, they are smiting evil just as the paladin would, and that means bypassing DR because that is what smite evil does.
I don't see what is there to misunderstand.
+1, Dabbler. bypassing DR is a quality of Paladin Smite Evil just as much as the fact that Smite only works vs. Evil targets.
your allies can't make use of Aura of Justice merely knowing the amount of bonuses, it still leans upon the rules for Smite.
one other idea to tone down smite... make the bonus damage non-Crit-multiplicable.
that basically removes the 'spike'/peak potential, while being equally strong most of the time.
removing the spike potential is also the rationale for choosing to remove the x2 dmg on first attack vs. super-evil types.
(paizo themselves toned that down in the first errata, the x2 used to apply to ALL attacks vs. super-evil types, now only for the 1st attack against them)
if just removing the initial x2 seems to harsh, i would honestly prefer to just change it to x2 CHA to-hit on 1st attack.
what i like about converting aura of justice to work like an actual aura, is that it forces alies who want to benefit from it, to bunch up around you, i.e. there is a downside to using it (of course, if your whole party can benefit from it, and can all take their action, not many enemies will be left after everybody takes their turn). as-is, the party wizard can pick it up just for the AC bonus.
other than that change to aura of justice, and the other options to tone down smite's 'peaks'/spikes, i think smite is definitely not overpowered and can fit into standard AP style campaigns with no problem.
I'll say again: I don't think this ability is overpowered. It's effectively a super-buff, and there are plenty of those around. I see no need to nerf it.
I'll say again: I don't think this ability is overpowered. It's effectively a super-buff, and there are plenty of those around. I see no need to nerf it.
I dont' agree with you, but this isn't the point.
The REAL thing is about the intepretation of the smite attack.
1. The smnite evil attack ALONE doesn't bypass any DR. It is stated in the "celestial" template (from Bestiary).
It allows only to to make a smite attack (+1/HD to damage and charisma get through it.
The Paladin smite attack enhance her AC. It is in ADDITION.
So the smite ability granted by a Paladin aura allow only to add the paladin bonuses to her friends attacks on evil foes. Give them the Paladin BONUSES on the smite attack, not the additional enhancements.
2. If those attack were like the Paladin smite-ability, the smite description would say "as a paladin", similar to how creatures with the evasion ability might say "see rogue", etc.
For a direct example, the Half-Celestial template (fron Bestiary too), has a different text:
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day as a swift action the half-celestial can smite evil as a paladin of the same level as its Hit Dice. The smite persists until the target is dead of the half-celestial rests.
It bypass DR and allow to any AC deflection bonuses (as a Paladin do).
Moreover, the Paladine Smite is overpowered in any case: I saw a demon lord with 500hp, DR 20 destroyed just in three rounds... absurd.
1) The ability to overcome DR is part of the smite evil ability, unless otherwise noted you should get all the abilities associated with it,while this was not the case for the celestial creature template (and this could have been clearer) it does mentions the features of the abilities you DO get.
2)It says it uses the same bonuses as the paladin, these are the bonuses transfered to his allies, why would it say 'as a paladin', the reason it is mentioned in the half-celestial description is because there is no basis for the bonuses there. In the paladin description they do not say as a paladin because they use the exact same bonuses as 'the' paladin in question, at the same level as that paladin, with the same number values, that seems very clear.
* As mentioned I still think the smite ability is overpowered, but I do not doubt the intent. I also think the aura of justice ability to be taking away 'the glory moment' of the paladin by essentially making the fighter/barbarian/ranger/cavalier, and possibly others, much better at doing what they are meant to be doing.
I'll say again: I don't think this ability is overpowered. It's effectively a super-buff, and there are plenty of those around. I see no need to nerf it.I dont' agree with you, but this isn't the point.
The REAL thing is about the interpretation of the smite attack.
There's nothing to interpret. The rules are very clear.
1. The smnite evil attack ALONE doesn't bypass any DR. It is stated in the "celestial" template (from Bestiary).
I'm sorry, but we are not talking about the celestial's smite ability, we are talking about the paladin's. That the celestial does things differently is of no consequence, smite evil is defined under the paladin ability as adding bonuses to hit and to AC, as well as damage, and to bypass DR.
2. If those attack were like the Paladin smite-ability, the smite description would say "as a paladin", similar to how creatures with the evasion ability might say "see rogue", etc.
If it intended the clestial version it would most DEFINITELY say that, especially as it appears in a whole different book. It doesn't. Instead, it gives the details of smite evil, and then details of Aura of Justice right next to one another in the same section. Coincidence? I think not.
Moreover, the Paladine Smite is overpowered in any case: I saw a demon lord with 500hp, DR 20 destroyed just in three rounds... absurd.
It took that long? Seriously?
A well optimised fighter at level 20 could probably do it in two. Bypass DR? any +5 weapon will do that anyway. 500hp? A level 20 fighter will be doing at last 50 per hit and 150 on a critical (about 1/3 hits) and only the lowest attack each round will miss. That's around 250 DPR there and then.
You are remembering the errata that paladins only double their smite bonus damage vs certain creatures for the first hit, then it's back to normal, aren't you?
right, the Paladin's ability is named Smite Evil,
sure, it's confusing that the Celestial Template has an ability with the same name that works differently,
but if a Paladin class ability references Smite Evil it only makes sense to assume they are talking about the Paladin's Smite Evil, if they meant otherwise they would need to specify the source - Players don't even normally have access to the Bestiary. Claiming that the Smite Evil reference should be understood to refer to the Bestiary ability without that being stated (why exactly should the Bestiary have priority in the first place?) when the ability is otherwise connecting the Smite to the Paladin's Smite (with their bonuses) just isn't supportable by RAW.
There's nothing to interpret. The rules are very clear.
This is YOUR opinion, not mine. You play as you like, I'll do the same. maybe you can think to have the true in your pocket: I don't.
Be happy: simply I don't think you are right.
I'm sorry, but we are not talking about the celestial's smite ability, we are talking about the paladin's. That the celestial does things differently is of no consequence, smite evil is defined under the paladin ability as adding bonuses to hit and to AC, as well as damage, and to bypass DR.
Again, YOU think so.
And moreover.. diffrent things with the same name... sound strange.However: i don't agree with you. Not so difficult to understand.
May be an oficila clarification would help.
If it intended the clestial version it would most DEFINITELY say that, especially as it appears in a whole different book. It doesn't. Instead, it gives the details of smite evil, and then details of Aura of Justice right next to one another in the same section. Coincidence? I think not.
Again this is simply your opinion. I find it objectable. Asd you think about my thought.
It took that long? Seriously?
A well optimised fighter at level 20 could probably do it in two. Bypass DR? any +5 weapon will do that anyway. 500hp? A level 20 fighter will be doing at last 50 per hit and 150 on a critical (about 1/3 hits) and only the lowest attack each round will miss. That's around 250 DPR there and then.
You are remembering the errata that paladins only double their smite bonus damage vs certain creatures for the first hit, then it's back to normal, aren't you?
Again. I dont' know the way you play.
My idea of role play is quite different: you like power play.. ok, it's your play. Don't pretend I like it too.However, I repeat: You think to be right. Ok. I think you are wrong. Simple. When Paizo wil clarify.. i will take notice.
right, the Paladin's ability is named Smite Evil,
sure, it's confusing that the Celestial Template has an ability with the same name that works differently,
but if a Paladin class ability references Smite Evil it only makes sense to assume they are talking about the Paladin's Smite Evil, if they meant otherwise they would need to specify the source - Players don't even normally have access to the Bestiary. Claiming that the Smite Evil reference should be understood to refer to the Bestiary ability without that being stated (why exactly should the Bestiary have priority in the first place?) when the ability is otherwise connecting the Smite to the Paladin's Smite (with their bonuses) just isn't supportable by RAW.
Quandary, honestly.... I don't agree with you. But this a free world and since I'm not sure.... A will keep my doubt.
1) The ability to overcome DR is part of the smite evil ability, unless otherwise noted you should get all the abilities associated with it,while this was not the case for the celestial creature template (and this could have been clearer) it does mentions the features of the abilities you DO get.
This is your opinion, not mine. same name, different thing? Strange.
2)It says it uses the same bonuses as the paladin, these are the bonuses transfered to his allies, why would it say 'as a paladin', the reason it is mentioned in the half-celestial description is because there is no basis for the bonuses there. In the paladin description they do not say as a paladin because they use the exact same bonuses as 'the' paladin in question, at the same level as that paladin, with the same number values, that seems very clear.
What are you talking about?
Im' NOT talking about aura of justice. I'm talking about the SMITE attack itself.The CELESTIAL description refer to a SMITE, but is doesn't add any DR bypassing ability and doesn't say that the creature smite like a paladin do.
The half-celestial refer to a SMITE but CLEARLY state that THAT smite work "as a paladin".
In the celestial template description there is nothing that allow the creature to smite "as a paladin"... so in my opinion must be different.