How do all caster parties deal with a small stone animated object. It is CR 2. How do they kill it? I really want to know. I would not want to play against the animated object it makes it not much fun. What spell should you use?Depends quite a bit on the scenario (terrian, level, ect). Also if it isn't causing any actual damage or problem the caster party can ignore it.
But some potential solutions, if not to defeat it then for all of them to make it no longer a problem, at least for long enough to wander away casually.
Create Pit, Entangle, Summon Monster, Animal Companions, 3/4 Bab casters walking over and hitting it with a stick (buffing if they feel like it), Grease, Obscuring Mist, Acid Splashes or other minor class abilities usable numerous times, ect.
Sorry if you have to go back a page to find out where this came from....
Isn't this perfect for the Shatter spell?
Getting past hardness is not impossible - adamantine weapons that bypass hardness were made for destroying small, CR 2-type annoyances. Or any other similar anti-construct tactic. Acid Splash at 0th-level (and thus infinite) works. Or a couple of tanglefoot bags, for crying out loud.
Post and compare. The thrown together fighter google doc is up as a mark to match.
Your document is frankly of limited utility because it doesn't factor in to hit percentages against CR appropriate foes.
In order to be fair to either character you need to factor in miss percentages (which typically favor the Fighter with his BAB). If I assume auto-hits and rakes off of a pounce the base damage of a druid + animal companion is frightfully high.
Honestly you should read the DPR olympics thread, it's of limited utility to actual play because the rules are so stringent but it's pretty illuminating nonetheless.
IIRC at 10th level the Druid + Animal Companion do significantly more DPR that even a full attacking Fighter.
Personally threads like that are what sealed the deal for me in terms of putting me firmly in the full attack + movement camp. Pounce is simply way too nice of an ability.
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Post and compare. The thrown together fighter google doc is up as a mark to match.
Your document is frankly of limited utility because it doesn't factor in to hit percentages against CR appropriate foes.
In order to be fair to either character you need to factor in miss percentages (which typically favor the Fighter with his BAB). If I assume auto-hits and rakes off of a pounce the base damage of a druid + animal companion is frightfully high.
Honestly you should read the DPR olympics thread, it's of limited utility to actual play because the rules are so stringent but it's pretty illuminating nonetheless.
IIRC at 10th level the Druid + Animal Companion do significantly more DPR that even a full attacking Fighter.
Personally threads like that are what sealed the deal for me in terms of putting me firmly in the full attack + movement camp. Pounce is simply way too nice of an ability.
Add the BAB at each level and calculate for build. The advantage for BAB will go to the fighter. I can throw one feat on the list and have full BAB for the power attack on the first attack of each round.
I've read the DPR, most of which was pre-APG with builds made for specific purpose that wouldn't work well in a broad game setting, as they depended on unlimited buffing and suboptimal point distributions.
Which is the point.
In combat, the fighter is ready to go at all times. So the question is how many resources, in time and in spells, are needed for the other classes to do similar damage.
I posted a fighter i threw together. How many spells to come close to the damage?
Not that I agree with CoD and others in that side of the debate, but I can answer this one for them just based on all the other posts in this thread. HP damage doesn't matter until the final point, better off SoL spamming.
I posted a fighter i threw together. How many spells to come close to the damage?Not that I agree with CoD and others in that side of the debate, but I can answer this one for them just based on all the other posts in this thread. HP damage doesn't matter until the final point, better off SoL spamming.
But SoLs do not matter until you fail the save :D
I posted a fighter i threw together. How many spells to come close to the damage?Not that I agree with CoD and others in that side of the debate, but I can answer this one for them just based on all the other posts in this thread. HP damage doesn't matter until the final point, better off SoL spamming.
Mechanically it may not matter but role playing wise it matters considerably. Would you keep fighting if you were at 15% of your hit points in less than a round? What would you do if someone managed to deal more than half your hit points in a single shot? If the creatures are played with an innate desire to live, they should be running from most combats quickly. They should surrender more often. They really shouldn't be fighting to the death all the time. Sometimes they don't have the choice and some creatures actually will fight to the death but most shouldn't. Most GMs, myself included, often have them fight to the death but that's certainly not the way most should behave.
I was reading through the Monster Creation rules and I found this interesting bit of information on Treasure for monsters (all emphasis is mine):
Step 9: Treasure
A creature should have an amount of treasure appropriate to its CR. See Table: XP and GP Values by CR for a list of treasure totals based on CR. For some creatures, their treasure consists of the loot from their recent meals strewn across their lairs, while for others it consists of a greed-fueled hoard or even gear it uses in combat. Make sure to account for any weapons or armor that the creature is using, as determined by step 7.
Here is the information from Step 7
Step 7: Other Statistics
Using Table: Monster Statitics by CR, Table: Creature Statistics by Type, and Table: Statistics Summary, you can now determine many of the creature's other statistics.When building a creature's Armor Class, start by adding armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to its Dexterity modifier. If a creature does not wear armor, give it a tougher hide to get it near its average AC. Remember that creatures with higher hit point totals might have a lower Armor Class, whereas creatures with fewer hit points might have a higher Armor Class. If a creature's Armor Class deviates from the average by more than 5 points, it might not be the right CR.
When determining a creature's attack bonuses, refer to the guidelines from Table: Monster Statistics by CR based on the creature's CR. If the bonus is too low, consider increasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or increasing the amount of damage it deals to above the average. If the bonus is too high, consider decreasing the creature's Strength or Dexterity, or decrease the amount of damage it deals. If this value is significantly different, and the creature is intended to rely on melee or ranged attacks, consider adjusting the creature's CR.
Use Table: Average Die Results to determine the number of damage dice, combined with damage bonuses, that the creature needs to reach the average damage for its CR. The creature might need additional or more damaging attacks to approach the average. Remember that creatures that primarily deal damage with other abilities, such as spells, do not need to meet the average damage for their attacks. You can also use Table: Average Die Results to determine a creature's average hit points. Remember that PC class levels provide the maximum number of hit points at 1st level.
Repeat this process for a creature's saving throws. If the saving throws are too high, consider altering the ability scores on which they are based.
When determining a creature's speed, first decide if it has any alternative modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim. Most Medium creatures have a base speed of 30 feet. Quadrupeds and Large creatures increase this by 10 feet each. Smaller creatures decrease this base speed by 10 feet. If a creature is particularly fast or slow, modify the base speed by 10 feet. Burrow and climb speeds are usually half a creature's base speed, while flying speeds are roughly double. Remember to give a creature the appropriate skills for any unusual movement methods.
So it is assumed that some monsters use their treasure to boost themselves. However, when they do so, it is also assumed that it is already accounted for in their stats. Basically, if you allow a dragon to use its hoard to buff itself, that's cool but remember that it also affects the CR. The dragon that I posted earlier should probably be CR +1.
You are free to believe what you want.
This is not a matter of belief, well, not for me. This is the matter of fact. You saying, for example, that the poster child series for pure-mental-action-instant-ownage casting (WoT) uses "more as ritual-style casting" (c) is a fact. That you haven't read these series or forgot all about them is therefore also a fact. And so on.
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I posted a fighter i threw together. How many spells to come close to the damage?Not that I agree with CoD and others in that side of the debate, but I can answer this one for them just based on all the other posts in this thread. HP damage doesn't matter until the final point, better off SoL spamming.
A couple of problem with the SoL approach.
1. SoL isn't that SoL. We went through this in another thread to show these spells are either very close range, single target or still leave the enemy able to act effectively, without killing the enemy or significantly reducing hit points. Meaning someone still has to remove the hit points.
2. You have to have the right spell to go against the right save, or you are dropping from optimal 75% success to less than 50% success on your highest level spells available (dropping in effectiveness 5% each spell level). And in addition with all of the immunities and an extended spell day, if you are memorizing a spell for each save that is three spells. If you are memorizing a spell for just fort and will, that is 2 spells. If you want to have spells in case you run into something like undead, if you want your daily buff spells, etc...it can add up quickly.
3. This is a thrown together chart, using the same maximized assumptions I used for the fighter for strength on intelligence. assuming a starting 20 Int human taking Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus (I am sure I am missing things people will point out...).
Impressive, but keep in mind Spell focus (and therefore greater spell focus) is for a single school. Take it for illusion at low level to make your color spray nigh/invulnerable and you will have the regular scores for the rest unless you are taking spell focus and greater spell focus for every feat all the way up. And this is your best possible spell, which you aren't going to have that many of a day.
And keep in mine this it the average for the high save of a specific monsters of equal CR to you, not the highest saves at that CR or even the saves of what you are facing in an above CR battle. And it doesn't account for monster immunities, monsters above the chart, etc...
4. And of course the biggest problem. When the save is made, the spell is gone, generally doing nothing at all.
This is why without posting a build, these conversations are pointless. Even if you post a build but leave off spell selections (which is how you have to play the character each day if you think about it) that would be somewhat useful.
This is not a matter of belief, well, not for me. This is the matter of fact. You saying, for example, that the poster child series for pure-mental-action-instant-ownage casting (WoT) uses "more as ritual-style casting" (c) is a fact. That you haven't read these series or forgot all about them is therefore also a fact. And so on.
You are free to believe what you want.
You are continued to be allowed to believe what you want regarding a book series where the vast majority of conflict is solved either with diplomacy, trickery, or martial skill, with the magical solutions typically being very noteworthy in part due to their rarity.
...Well, to be fair, all conflict is rare. The last one I read had some major world shaking event happen and nobody seemed to noticed because they were too busy tugging their braids or pulling their skirts.
You are continued to be allowed to believe what you want regarding a book series where the vast majority of conflict is solved either with diplomacy, trickery, or martial skill, with the magical solutions typically being very noteworthy in part due to their rarity.
I don't know about that -- you can pretty much guarantee that at a bare minimum, Rand is going to go nuke one of the Forsaken (probably with balefire) at the end of each book.
Granted, I stopped reading the series about a decade and a half ago so maybe that changes down the line.
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...Well, to be fair, all conflict is rare. The last one I read had some major world shaking event happen and nobody seemed to noticed because they were too busy tugging their braids or pulling their skirts.
Or fingering their moustaches. They do that a lot, too.
Ever notice the great pains Jordan took in describing people's moustaches? I had to put those books down. Too much braid tugging and moustache fingering.
Fair enough.
A couple of questions..
Animal Companion in your games use towershields and bow?
If retreat is hard without teleports, movements is hard. Does it mean that after all, melee can tank meaningfully? After all, id move from me means death, I'm quite a good tank. ;)
In a more serious note, ever happened to jump (in game :D) into a waterfall to run away? What about withdraw as a full round with moos covering you?
And again, 60 HP or not, I don't really see why every encounter should one-shot you. I don't see why couldn't I Just beat up and thein intimidate.
And more importantly, SoL spam is not that different to HP damage in this regard. If the monster passes the saves and/or comes out being immune, you stil have a full monster.
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Fair enough.
A couple of questions..
Animal Companion in your games use towershields and bow?
If retreat is hard without teleports, movements is hard. Does it mean that after all, melee can tank meaningfully? After all, id move from me means death, I'm quite a good tank. ;)
In a more serious note, ever happened to jump (in game :D) into a waterfall to run away? What about withdraw as a full round with moos covering you?
And again, 60 HP or not, I don't really see why every encounter should one-shot you. I don't see why couldn't I Just beat up and thein intimidate.
And more importantly, SoL spam is not that different to HP damage in this regard. If the monster passes the saves and/or comes out being immune, you stil have a full monster.
One shot...because fights are solo...right.
Also, we went through the SoL spells and and they still leave the enemy alive and able to defend itself and/or in a position where you can't hurt them without putting yourself at risk of the same spell.
Average HP for stock enemies at level 5 is 56. There's your examples.
Can you explain how you got this figure to the audience.
Already provided here and elsewhere.
Agreed, Pit Fiend breaks their table/Chart. I'm not sure PF really considered their own rules when they wrote that Chart (it seems low balled).
Granted, the few rd/day of Bard reasoning already showed that (Jason was one who talked about that I think).|
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Average HP for stock enemies at level 5 is 56. There's your examples.
Can you explain how you got this figure to the audience.
It's actually 55, there is a chart in the bestiary.
Still, it's 4 characters, not one. A two weapon fighter can get up to an average of 30 without trying hard. Two of them would be 60, 3 would be0, 4 would be 120.
So four 5th level two weapon fighting specialist fighter can do 120 damage on average if they have to move and attack. Which at 5th level is what they would be doing on full attack anyway, since it's still single attack until +6.
Or put another way they can drop 2 of the 56 hit point creatures.
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Agreed, Pit Fiend breaks their table/Chart. I'm not sure PF really considered their own rules when they wrote that Chart (it seems low balled).
Granted, the few rd/day of Bard reasoning already showed that (Jason was one who talked about that I think).
Pit fields are generally vulnerable to things like dismissal, unless you are in hell.
It has 20 less hit points than average CR 20, and only 2 higher AC. Caster level is 18th, and it's damage resistance is easily overcome. It's saves are mediocre.
Remember the bestiary is a baseline pit fiend. It goes up significantly if you optimize equipment.
Casters are more versatile and their raw focused power exceeds any non caster class but Non casters more fun to play. Like a rogue, they are a great to play but I'd argue they are the weakest class in the game by how most measure power in this game.
And then what happens is three levels later the Swashbuckling arc concludes and you go fight undead instead. Spellcasters just start loading different spells. Martials...
And having a campaign arc last for three levels is on the long side. After all, that's 40-120 fights. It usually happens sooner, as mono campaigns really aren't all that common, and if you're saying you need a mono campaign that makes my point for me.
First, if the GM tells you that you are in a swashbuckling campaign and then switches to undead heavy, that's not a problem with the system. That's a problem with the GM. Even your super duper wizard is a bit screwed because he probably took spells that aren't very effective against undead but are very effective against living humanoids.
Besides, the fighter can just change his feats. I know, it's hard to believe but he can do it without using any house rules at all. If you don't believe me, I will tell you to crack open your Core Rulebook and reread the fighter entry. The majority of his feats will still work just fine so he shouldn't need to make too many adjustments.
I don't think you understand what a theme is for a campaign nor how long a campaign can last. I have been in campaigns that were only 2 adventures. I have been in campaigns that were 20 adventures. I have run campaigns from level 1 to 20. Each of those had a different theme. If I am running a campaign that is all about swashbuckling, it will look more like The Princess Bride, or Robin Hood (the one with Errol Flynn), or Zorro, with a twist of magic. If it's something that we find is not suiting our tastes for a long term theme, then we change it up but I either make it part of the campaign (so the characters can evolve) or we just start a new campaign.
If you want some good examples of themed campaigns, just read through the Adventure Paths. Those are themed campaigns. They are actually far more common than you think. I rarely have seen GMs that just throw random stuff at the party all the time. I've gamed with hundreds of people over 30 years in many states. Themed campaigns are what makes the campaign enjoyable and gives the players an idea of what to expect from the world.
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That's an interesting idea Bob, but I'm not going to lie, it's not one that I've seen very often.
For the most part, the games I've encountered had themed Adventures, or Arcs, but the campaign would often shift between arcs.
Say one arc might be a swashbuckling arc that lasts 2-3 levels, the next might be an undead arc, after that you might be going on a quest through the forsaken jungles and into the depths of 'hell on earth.'
I actually have yet to play in a 'theme campaign' that lasted more than 4 levels.
Golarion is a theme.
It isn't like it is any more likely for a martial character to walk into a room and suddenly find hitting things with a sword isn't working anymore than a caster finding magic doesn't work. An entire class of monsters is immune to magic.
Go down fighting of course, since retreat is impossible without teleportation. Chances are the AoOs alone would do it. Your way turns every single enemy into boomerangs. Which has the exact same effect - they still don't run, and still die, but with less chance of taking out the PCs first.
Oh man, you really need to read something before you comment on it. Did you see the part where I said that even I have the monsters fighting to the death most of the time? It's not "my way" to have them run.
Even if they did run and escape (which has happened without the need to teleport), they don't always come back. The only ones that come back are the plot driven NPCs. Most that do escape know that they already got their butts handed to them. They aren't looking for a rematch. It's part of that whole "role playing" thing I was mentioning before. If I got beat soundly by 4 guys, why would I want to go back and do that again? Even if I train constantly, why would I want to go up against 4 others who are also training constantly? I thought the enemies were supposed to be played intelligently. That doesn't sound very smart to me. I have been on the receiving end of a group butt-whooping. I didn't like it so I decided that I wasn't going to go back for more. Even animals learn not to do that. They get more wary as they learn what to avoid.
I also notice that you are saying you think Attacks of Opportunity are sufficient to take out an enemy. That seems to be a contradiction to what you have said in the past when you said that Attacks of Opportunity don't do enough. If you are playing mostly wizards, how are you getting those attacks in? If you aren't focused on dealing hit point damage, how is the cleric going to be doing enough damage to make it worthwhile?
When building a creature's Armor Class, start by adding armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses to its Dexterity modifier. If a creature does not wear armor, give it a tougher hide to get it near its average AC. Remember that creatures with higher hit point totals might have a lower Armor Class, whereas creatures with fewer hit points might have a higher Armor Class. If a creature's Armor Class deviates from the average by more than 5 points, it might not be the right CR.And then a Pit Fiend casts Unholy Aura on itself, which is always on by the way, and it's already broken that. Because as stated and proven many times, those guidelines are not consistent or accurate with themselves and are therefore irrelevant.
Has it broken that?
Pit Fiend AC: 38
Hit Points: 350
Pit Fiend Saves: Fort +24, Ref +21, Will +18
Damage: 83, not accounting for poison
With Unholy Aura:
Pit Fiend AC: 43
Hit Points: 350
Pit Fiend Saves: Fort +28, Ref +25, Will +22
Damage: 83, not accounting for poison
The averages for CR 20:
AC 36
Hit Points 370
Good Save: 22
Poor Save: 17
Damage: 90-120
So the pit fiend, even with unholy aura still falls within the monster creation guidelines. His AC and saves are higher but his hit points and damage are lower. If you read through the monster creation guidelines you will see that this is exactly how it's supposed to work out.
You may also notice that the guidelines state that it may not be the right CR, not that it isn't the right CR. You need to take everything into account. If his AC is high enough to bump him by one CR but his attacks drop him by one CR, then he's seen no change in his CR. This is exactly what's happened with the pit fiend, even with unholy aura.
For reference, here are the rules: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html
Average HP for stock enemies at level 5 is 56. There's your examples.
And the average should be 55. Wow, 1 hit point difference. Sounds like it's exactly where it should be. Thank you for the supporting evidence.
When the hit points go above that by a significant amount, the CR should change accordingly.
That's an interesting idea Bob, but I'm not going to lie, it's not one that I've seen very often.
For the most part, the games I've encountered had themed Adventures, or Arcs, but the campaign would often shift between arcs.
Say one arc might be a swashbuckling arc that lasts 2-3 levels, the next might be an undead arc, after that you might be going on a quest through the forsaken jungles and into the depths of 'hell on earth.'
I actually have yet to play in a 'theme campaign' that lasted more than 4 levels.
The adventure paths are great examples of how to do a themed campaign. I am running Age of Worms and there is definitely a consistent theme running through each adventure. Every adventure has something that ties it to the next adventure and the overall campaign. Sometimes the players don't see it right away, but it's still there.
I prefer running and playing in themed campaigns. If I don't like the theme, then I either leave or discuss with the GM what I feel the problem(s) may be.
One of my players is going to be running a Dark Sun campaign with the Pathfinder rules when my campaign ends. I have already discussed with him some of the potential problems I have with Dark Sun. Within that setting, he is going to have a theme. I don't know what it is yet and we're more than 6 months away from the game so he has plenty of time to work it out. This campaign may not last all 20 levels (17 actually since we're starting at 3rd level). It will still have a theme though.
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http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem-snip- An entire class of monsters is immune to magic.Whoa, what, really? Which one's that?thought that was what you're referencing, in which case I'm going to say you're wrong.
Golem immunity only protects versus SR spells, which does not include every spell in the game. If you weren't paying attention and took nothing but SR allowing spells, then you deserve what you get. I've built casters able to take on golems just fine. It's one of my major decisions when selecting spells, in fact, because SR values can be disproportionately or infinitely (in the case of the golem) high.
You'd have been better citing the 3.5 Arcane Ooze, which is immune to all forms of magic SR or not, iirc.
So this is another way spell selection is divided then.
So at this point I need a spell for fort saves, a spell for will saves, a spell without spell resistance...and on a 4 encounter minimum day fighting multiple enemies you don't run out of spells how?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem-snip- An entire class of monsters is immune to magic.Whoa, what, really? Which one's that?thought that was what you're referencing, in which case I'm going to say you're wrong.
Golem immunity only protects versus SR spells, which does not include every spell in the game. If you weren't paying attention and took nothing but SR allowing spells, then you deserve what you get. I've built casters able to take on golems just fine. It's one of my major decisions when selecting spells, in fact, because SR values can be disproportionately or infinitely (in the case of the golem) high.
You'd have been better citing the 3.5 Arcane Ooze, which is immune to all forms of magic SR or not, iirc.
I agree with you for the most part. The only thing I would point out is that the auto-win SoL spells that are often touted as making the casters so uber are not going to be affecting the golems (or undead, or constructs, or oozes, or vermin). That isn't to say that you don't still have options that are extremely effective, but for every spell you have as a contingency plan, that's one less of the SoL spells that you would have for the majority of the other encounters.
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Ever notice the great pains Jordan took in describing people's moustaches? I had to put those books down. Too much braid tugging and moustache fingering.
Look, guys, I tried my best to derail this thread by invoking the Robert Jordan moustache fetish. Obviously, you guys either aren't paying attention to the Moustache Fetish Conversation Deterrant Treaty of 1978, or you don't realize that everyone here has made their point 37.3 times (on average) already, and that nobody's even remotely starting to convince anyone of anything.
So, I'll try again. Moustaches.
I'm sorry, can someone please explain to me why we're passing judgement on an entire game edition and the corresponding "caster edition" debate by examining the pit fiend?