This is not a game about math. It's a role playing game. Yes, you figured out the average hit points for level 5 creatures correctly. No, the game is not about math.
Um, yes it is all about math.
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Just for the record, anyone from Paizo who checks on why I just flagged this thread as being in the wrong forum, I strongly believe that it belongs in the Houserule forum.
As would any thread in which posters discuss their houserules and the general superiority of their houserules to the Core Rules as written.
If not, why not? Thanks.
J
Ah, more out of context quotes from everyone's favorite straw manner.
Here's an actually relevant response: It breaks down more the higher level you go, and breaks down more with things like attack, AC, and saves than HP. I've already explained and proven this to you at least once. You are simply being difficult.
I swear you don't even bother reading. I freaking supported your point about hit points.
Pick any monsters from the Bestiary and I will show you for a fact that it fits the monster creation rules the way it is meant to. Any of them. I already did it with the pit fiend. I am willing to bet that there isn't any monster that doesn't fit the creation rules appropriately.
For convenience, here is the definition of straw man (I'm tired of you trotting it out when you don't know what it means): http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/659/03/ I chose this site because I think that Purdue is a good enough place to get the definition.
This is not a game about math. It's a role playing game.
Actually, D&D is very demonstrably based on mathematics, given there's a number for everything. While it's true that it has a component separate from the math, the math still exists. Else we wouldn't need a rulebook and that rulebook would not have math in it.
I also wouldn't be as good at it, were it not based on math, but that's a bit too introspective for my liking...
EDIT: and CoD should really hit refresh before reply... :P
I didn't say that math isn't used in the game. I said it's not a game about math. Soduku is a game about math. Many logic puzzles are actually games about math. Most gambling games are games about math. Pathfinder is a role playing game that uses math to help us determine outcomes. It is not a game about math. It is first and foremost a role playing game.
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How many fighters have you seen NOT dump Wis. Every time I've said they shouldn't, I've been shouted down. Furthermore, the fighter's got a poor will save. So he's going to be rocking (at the important levels) maybe a 4 base, 3-4 from wis, 3-4 from resistance. I don't see a lot of fighters taking Iron Will. Tops out at a 12 mod. Caster's DC for G Scry: 17 base + casting stat (probably around a +8) is around a Dc 25, higher with feats to boost it. Might even heighten it up to an 8th lvl spell. Fighter's got a 60% chance to fail the save.At level 13? Try 29 prime stat. Which means +1 more DC.Meh, I was assuming a base 18 instead of 20, with a +4 item and +4 from level (lv 16).
But how'd you hit 29? Best I can figure at lv 13 is a 27...
And you were right on the cost of the ring. 120k. Still expensive for something that doesn't help a fighter fight.
Mindblank is an 8th level spell. If BBEG can make you an 8th level spell slot every day, BBEG says thank you.
@CoDzilla: it was actually a balor that time. :)
But if he does not use melee.. why complain about hit bonus?
The ring is expensive - this is a good counter-argument, because it exist in PF - just because item creation rules exist.
Casting mindblank on a fighter non only makes him less vulnerable, but opens room for invisibilities and other goodies able to make him a dangerous Deadly Stroke use. A well placed ambush means death if attacks are combined. And I'm sure in game more and more combos can come.
You said pit fiend uses WBL (very right, my high level monsters do it too - and used in a clever manner, it can pimp mooks too!). What if uses a lot of defensive items to grand immunities and resistances? The fighter above could be a great surprise move for the parti. You can't be immune to greataxes.
D&D is a roleplaying game yes, but how well you play your role is determined by your math. I can claim to be the best thief in all the realm, but if I don't have the numerical skill values to back that up, then I'm lying (and probably very poorly if my bluff skill isn't high enough!)
This is partly right. Deeds matter too - even if, yeah, with better stats you are more likey to accomplish them ;)
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You do not need Str unless you are meleeing. Since PF goes out of its way to make it clear to you you should not be meleeing, you should not do this. Dex does nothing of importance. Cha does nothing of importance. Int is not worth raising past 10, and further most of the skills you mention are useless. You have spells, so you don't need Heal, Nobility and History are the most useless Knowledges in the game, even more so than architecture and the other one that doesn't ID creatures. Sense Motive is semi useful but better left for someone else. That leaves Spellcraft, Knowledge Religion, and Diplomacy. Oh look, a human Cleric with Int 10 does it just fine.Which doesn't matter because of your armor.
. . . Nah, it's trivially easy to make a non healbot Cleric, and they'll be more effective to boot, along with being rewarded by the system for doing so. Particularly in PF, where all character types other than selfish casters are heavily discouraged.
Ok, useless in melee, usless in social encouters, can't navigate a battle field when needed. Check. Now lets apply a nonstandard concept. Shall we go with Dervish of Sarenrae? Crusader of Imedae? Tempter of Calistria? Come up with something?
We have a Cleric without armor, Str 8 - 10, Dex 8 - 10, Con 14+, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10. Go. You can heal within 30 feet 1d6 per 2/levels or deal 1d3 per levels (nothing wil fail this save), 3/day, but will always affect everything in that area, so it may actually be better to not even have that ability at all. Two Domains you can help other players do things with probably, or be very ineffective actually making them work, or getting smacked down just before they go off. Remember, you can't afford to go infront of the Wizard for fear of being hit on Nat 1's, and so many of your abilities are touch range.
I wonder what you would do in a game that goes strictly by the RAW. No house rules. Nothing outside of Pathfinder material. You'll find that your assumptions are way off base.
Houstonderek and Silverhair and a few others and I actually did, and it was more caster-dominated than 3.5. We were excited about Pathfinder, and intentionally made a direct-damage focused party to see if it would finally be viable. Due to no cleric, healing potions were made plentiful and ubiquitous.
We also ran though "Burnt Offerings" (which I converted to PF), with similar results. Overall, we concluded that optimizing the hell out of martial characters to keep up meant pulling in a lot of 3.5e splat material, which put is back into 3.5, except with stronger casters -- which is more or less fits CoDZilla's assumptions very, very closely.
Net result? Houserule rewrite of the entire game.
In PF? I would do exactly what the system encourages me to do. Full caster teams, save or lose spam, blitz dungeons and play it just like a bad video game, because that's what PF RAW IS. In such a game non casters do not work, non selfish casters do not work, and the only tactics that are remotely relevant are spells. And only the last one is also a failing of 3.x.
If this is the only way you made it work, it's becaus of your gamestyle, sorry.
*your experience and gamestyle =/= general rule*
And you were right on the cost of the ring. 120k. Still expensive for something that doesn't help a fighter fight.
I addressed above the cost, and I would use the cast, actually.
But above, I addressed the use of a mind blank ring, as an example.
I'm sorry, but the more I read these boards, the more I'm sure people sometimes don't think outside the box with martial characters.
Someone told them you can only charge and full attack, and this is all they do.
EDIT: and have severe misconceptions, see poster below.
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1 + 3 is what level? Exactly. Now what relevance does this have?Also, Glitterdust and Web still work just fine on undead, as does Slow when you get it. Color Spray won't, but since it's been a few levels Color Spray has already expired, and Stinking Cloud won't, but since it's only been 3 levels instead of 4 you have not picked 3rd level spells yet so it's a moot point.Remember, all the nerfs to spells and the change in Concentration was specifically to force casters to rely on lower level spells.
Um. . . lower level, which you say are irrelevant by the point one would cast higher level spells, so I guess completely relevant. As in 100%.
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And then a Pit Fiend casts Unholy Aura on itself, which is always on by the way, and it's already broken that. Because as stated and proven many times, those guidelines are not consistent or accurate with themselves and are therefore irrelevant.
And for being always on you mean that he needs to cast it every 3 minutes for all the duration of his life...
Have to love those powergamers.
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Translation: If the DM runs anything other than a mono campaign, non adaptable classes are screwed. Well that's true, but the DM isn't doing anything wrong. You beat the BBEG, and that arc is over. And then you move onto something else. Not to mention even the so called mono campaigns aren't really... RHoD has you fight humanoid mooks for 3-4 levels as the majority of things you face and then suddenly stops almost entirely with the humanoid opponents. And even before that there are also dragons, undead, magical beasts, giants, and many other creature types.
Also, Glitterdust and Web still work just fine on undead, as does Slow when you get it. Color Spray won't, but since it's been a few levels Color Spray has already expired, and Stinking Cloud won't, but since it's only been 3 levels instead of 4 you have not picked 3rd level spells yet so it's a moot point.
I'm starting to question whether you actually play RPGs. Do you know how a campaign is designed? Do you know how a good story is written? You may want to work on those elements before telling me I'm wrong. May I suggest watching some movies, especially those with several sequels (they used to be called serials) and long running themes (Star Wars comes immediately to mind but Lord of the Rings and even Rocky can qualify). Look at long running TV series like Buffy, Angel, 24, Supernatural, Smallville, How I Met Your Mother, etc. Those all have long running themes and they still have times when you deviate a bit from the theme but come back.
A good campaign uses a variety of opponents. I will never deny that. However, if you are playing in a Planescape game you probably have more elementals, devils, and demons as opponents than you will have giants and magical beasts. If you are playing in a Dark Sun setting, you will probably have more giants and vermin than dragons. If you are in Savage Tide, you will have more humanoids than devils and demons. That doesn't mean you won't see any opponents that are a bit out of the theme. It...
Wow, for someone who constantly accuses CoD of being a "One right Way-ist", this may be the most arrogantly "One Right Way" post I've ever seen.
Lord of the Rings? It's based on a novel, and covers two years. Star Wars? Ditto (except the novel part). Both are arcs at best. Rocky? Yeah, run the same exact adventure four times in a row and see if your players are amused. the same with 24, CSI, House, or most any other TV show pretty much.
If you're going to cite popular entertainment, go with Firefly. At least every episode was a different adventure. And was more plot driven than theme driven. Or Star Trek. Or anything episodic that actually had variety.
You confuse formula with creativity, by the way. Everything you listed followed a formula. That's what Hollywood does. Formula sells to people with little imagination. It doesn't work so well for others (which is why indie films exist, not everyone likes formula). And sitcoms are about as unoriginal as you can get, why did you even cite any?
Star wars was much more of an arc than a campaign, actually. The whole thing might have taken the characters through level five, tops.
I'm glad you think every campaign should be like an AP. APs are cute, but they generally are BORING AS HELL. Let's look at RotRL: start out with goblins, move to humans, then ogres then giants. Wow, that hasn't been done to death in the 30 some-odd years of D&D. Second Darkness? Ooooohhhh! Drow! How 1979... Themed campaigns are FUN! (um, no...).
And campaign settings? Yeah, hate to break it to you, but all those wonderful campaign settings are what killed TSR. Most people like generic D&D, they don't want Dark Sun, or Ravenloft, or whatever. There's a reason Forgotten Realms buried all of them, it's generic and flexible.
You sound like a boring DM if you post was anything but another attempt to insult CoD.
Soduku is a game about math.
Not really; you could replace the numbers by orange stars, green clovers, and blue diamonds, and it would work the same. And the number of possible permutations are so low that no math is needed to deduce the right combo.
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Now go reread Kirth Gersen's post.
In PF? I would do exactly what the system encourages me to do. Full caster teams, save or lose spam, blitz dungeons and play it just like a bad video game, because that's what PF RAW IS. In such a game non casters do not work, non selfish casters do not work, and the only tactics that are remotely relevant are spells. And only the last one is also a failing of 3.x.
If this is the only way you made it work, it's becaus of your gamestyle, sorry.
*your experience and gamestyle =/= general rule*
Oh, why bother? We're all really crappy players who have no idea how to play Pathfinder. We suck. We're doing it wrong. Our one year experiment was obviously irrelevant because we suck.
That's about the only way the other side will see it.
in Savage Tide, you will have more humanoids than devils and demons.
For the record, Savage Tide has a couple of bullywugs and dinosaurs, and then it's ALL DEMONS. Like, 90% of the AP.
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Mindblank is an 8th level spell. If BBEG can make you an 8th level spell slot every day, BBEG says thank you.Cute. I suppose then that I shouldn't take any preparations to protect myself at all? Despite the fact that I routinely engage in activities that piss off powerful foes? I suppose that I should just never cast any of my spells by that logic. I mean, why do what my class is designed to do? Surely it's better to let my enemies scry, teleport to my location, and kill me.
Mindblank is like a condom. Better to have it when you don't need it, than need it and not have it.
I don't disagree. But it is still an 8th level spell slot.
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I'm curious what you specfically mean? Deleting which rulsets? How is martial "nerfed", (penulized in a way that it wan't in 3E and also not affecting non "martial" classes)?
My understanding is 2 main things:
PF nerfed Power Attack overall. The new Power Attack is okay, but one of the key ways damage was dealt in 3.5 was to get as much + attack bonuses as possible, and then combined with Shock Trooper feat (Complete Warrior), have a high attack bonus, dump that into PA, use Shock Trooper to raise your attack bonus back up, and hit for a crapload of damage with 1 or more attacks.
Grease, Blink, and other ways to deny DEX to AC was removed. Using those 2 spells (there's more I think) triggered Sneak Attack damage, making rogues have better DPS.
There are probably others, but those are the ones I can think of.
The Power Attack nerf really hurts because it meant slower damage progression. Upto your BAB means the character does not need to wait until level 4 and every 4 after that to get damage boost. PA basically tried to replace PA, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack all at the same time. I admire that goal, but then Paizo wrote up non-scaling feat trees like Vital Strike. And don't get me started on how terrible Two-Weapon Rend is (I think it was terrible before as well, but I don't recall as easily).
Way to get Sneak Attack nerf seems good, but it just means the rogue can't deal as much damage as easily. Not that it could before anyways, but I don't think there's a way for them to boost damage.
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Soduku is a game about math.Not really; you could replace the numbers by orange stars, green clovers, and blue diamonds, and it would work the same. And the number of possible permutations are so low that no math is needed to deduce the right combo.
+1. I knew people in the joint who couldn't add one and one who were fast at Soduku.
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I think you are missing what he is saying. That campaign should have a general theme, but also use a large variaty. Just like you mentioned, Star Wars have a variaty of encounters, Storm Troopes, Aliens, Cantinas, Gambling Dens, Huge Monsters, Jedi/Sith masters, temptation.
Star Trek was similar in the episodes, having limitless variety.
casters got all manner of free buffs for no apparent reason whatsoever.
Remember that free beer you mentioned? I'll buy the second round.
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I think you are missing what he is saying. That campaign should have a general theme, but also use a large variaty. Just like you mentioned, Star Wars have a variaty of encounters, Storm Troopes, Aliens, Cantinas, Gambling Dens, Huge Monsters, Jedi/Sith masters, temptation.
Star Trek was similar in the episodes, having limitless variety.
I didn't miss what he was saying. I just think what he was saying works great for passive entertainment, not so much for participatory entertainment.
For example, I hated the Dragonlance modules. Mostly because they followed the novels step by step, but also because, after two modules, I wanted to do something different. It bored me to tears. Like any AP I've played in.
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Discourse regarding the game's system is necessary, to both shatter illusions and preconceptions (on both sides) about what the system is and to lay groundwork for those who read said discussions to develop their own opinion.
Discourse is necessary. Repetitive ad nauseam blathering is not. This thread is all about one of those two things. Can you figure out which it is?
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Now go reread Kirth Gersen's post.
In PF? I would do exactly what the system encourages me to do. Full caster teams, save or lose spam, blitz dungeons and play it just like a bad video game, because that's what PF RAW IS. In such a game non casters do not work, non selfish casters do not work, and the only tactics that are remotely relevant are spells. And only the last one is also a failing of 3.x.
If this is the only way you made it work, it's becaus of your gamestyle, sorry.
*your experience and gamestyle =/= general rule*
Oh, why bother? We're all really crappy players who have no idea how to play Pathfinder. We suck. We're doing it wrong. Our one year experiment was obviously irrelevant because we suck.
That's about the only way the other side will see it.
Don't confuse frustration with the poster being vented as being frustration with the idea.
My experience was not your experience. Melee do fine in my games, and if anything are more powerful than casters at lower levels (flipping somewhat at higher levels, but still important).
Your way isn't better or worse, but it is different. Different is fine, and I for one have consistently said what you are doing creating a separate set of house rules for your game is great. Your group doesn't generally say others are doing it wrong.
Sometimes the sides get lumped.
And you might've +'d the post I made before pointing out the exact same thing... for which you're forgiven since this train's running like to run off it's rails!
Mea culpa. After scrolling up for several hours, I found the post you alluded to. Well said.